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After countless battles that ended with me packing up my army in shame i started to think. Which tactic could i use to make my space marines unstoppable?

I've tried assault oriented armies with lots of fast attack choices but i just got destroyed by long range weaponry.

I've tried pounding my opponent from afar with ranged weaponry but i cant seem to win.

I just need to know what is the best combination for a SM army and how could i best use them.


Please help.

balanced. you need shooty bits and assaulty bits to win the day.

land raiders full of terminators are a good example. They can shoot well (the raider anyway) and the terminators give you good counter charge.

Do you have an example of an assaulty and a Shooty list you have used?

we could then tweak the list to be truly what they are meant to do.

if you like shooty marines check out my Gunline articles in the tactics section.

Ok so if i use an assault oriented army i'll usually use around three ten man squads of assault troops and two tactical squads. I'll also use a five man assault terminator squad with a land raider crusader.

If i have a shooty army i'll use four tactical squads, two devestator squads with two heavy bolters and two plasma cannons apiece. Sometimes ill take out a tactical squad and put in a predator.

well there's your problem. assault squads are suck, and so are devastators.

Shooty marines need to have all tac squads in rhinos, Sergeants with Combi-weapons of the same kind as the special weapon in the squad, landspeeder Typhoons for FA, 2 Tl-Autocannon or Lascannon/missile launcher dreadnoughts for elites, MOTF for an HQ for more dreadnoughts and repair ability if you want. Vindicators for Heavy support. Tactical terminators with Clyclone missile launchers if you like termies. Captain and Command squad to spam Flamers, Plasma guns or melta guns. Sternguard to spam special weapons.

Devestators are utter too expensive for heavy weapons.

Shooty marines need to stay mobile.


go read my article for more info.

Well, you guys definietly know alot more than me.

Devastators are great if you know how to use them. Put them in a position where they will have a clear line of sight of enemy infantry and vehicles. If your enemy is fielding tanks and APC's go with lascannons. If they are fielding mass infantry go with heavy bolters. Because you can choose to fire krak or frag missiles with the missile launcher you will be able to go anti tank or anti infantry. If you have assault units with jump packs keep them behind cover for as long as possible and assault as soon as they get close enough. You have to tailor your army list against your opponent strengths. What armies do you usually fight?

I fight orks alot. and i've faced IG a few times.

Codices are very set in their ways. Say it with me now "don't force a codex in a direction it does not want to go." Now you try.

Each power armor dex has a core competency (unless you consider SW and BA that can work many different competitive styles of play but this is a recent phenomenon)

Co:SM is not assault oriented. It has a slew of tempting assault units but they are not a crutch. A list using Co:SM should never build around a assault foundation.

Co:SM works best with a variety of unit types that work synergistically. Balance works for Codex Marines lists because frankly their units are balanced.

If youre fighting against Orks and IG go with template weapons. Flamers have AP5 which can outright kill an Ork and regular Guardsmen. Orks specialize in assualt so unless you have BA or SW dont try to outdo them in combat. Their numbers and the mob rule help get them to the front and the Waaagh! can give them fleet give them a potential 18'' move. Go with lots of Heavy Bolters. the AP4 will kill 'Ard Boyz and Guards in Carapace armor with contemptuous ease.

jfizzle
dont use tactical marines. they are bad pieces its hard to win with bad pieces. the problems are...
1. cost too much
2. have only 1 attack
3. have dinky pea shooter guns
4. 3+ armor isnt worth paying for when 4+ cover is so easy to get.

my advice if your playing blood angels give them jump packs and a sanguinary priest. tac marines suck but blood angels assault marines are awesome. use descent of angels its one of the best things in your codex. if your playing reg marines bring bikes if your playing space wolves grey wolves are an ok way to deliver melta attacks but in any case I strongly advise against running a boat load of tactical guys.
AF

tac marines don't suck.

bolters are good anti-infantry guns. double tapping with them allows you to decimate light infantry (orks/guardsmen/eldar). Probably among the best basic weapons in the game.

Having bolt pistols means you get basically 3 attacks per marine on the charge. 1 shot going in, 1 base, 1 from charging. This means 2 things... you need to initiate the assault in order to be effective, and you need to assault with enough force that you will not be in a prolonged fight.

having frags and kraks as standard equipment makes them very versatile. You can charge into cover without loosing the advantage of being the assaulter. You can also bring down vehicles in hand to hand without the need for dedicated anti-tank weapons (if the tanks are light enough).

The tac squad, for 245 points, can rock a missile launcher, a lascannon, a twin linked plasma gun, and a flamer. Of course, 2 of those weapons are mounted on the razorback, but it doesn't mean its any less lethal. Its a formidable loadout that allows the tac squad to really take on any challenge, at any range, and still be effective. Thats more than you can say for most other army's base infantry.

Remember the main purpose of troops are to take and hold points and SM are pretty good for that. Sitting in a transport or cover they are not easy to dislodge from a point with either AV11 or a 4+ cover and a base 3+ and two special weapons and up to 16 bolter shots its not easy to dislodge them from where they're parked. SM need to use the other parts of their FOC clear enemy points or actually get kill points. Tac squads are good for what they are designed for which is scoring, use them for anything else and your gona be disappointed.

I find a good unit for killing just about anything is lysander and 5 th ss termies in a LR redeemer. they can withstand just about anything, can take on just about anything, and if you deploy the LR as close as possible to the enemy, it can move 112", fire one of it's guns and the termies can still assault out of it. but remember- lysander is an eternal warrior, so take most wounds on him- he has 2+ armour, 3+ inv, S10,
4 attacks and 4 wounds- you can save 3 termies by taking wounds on him! Works every time.

Oh dear lord, not here too...
AF... sadly, this again. Tacticals are not great, but they are not crap.

The way they work is that they are a supporting unit...the whole SM list is one big supporting love fest, so few things will come with your standard of 'great'.
_________________________

How to use them? I will agree with the 'balanced' comment and in all likelyhood a mech army is what you should go for with a counter attack choice and enough cover fire to silence 'the big guns' if possible.

In addition, focus on mission objectives...SM are not a mainline army and are not supposed to operate that way....going for obliteration is something to grasp when it's already happening, not from the beginning. Even in annihilation... you take out stuff you can take out.

If you want to do shooty marines here is my complete article. units to take and how to use the units.

HQ

Master of the Forge.

Not the most popular HQ choice in the Codex as he is really just an overglorified Techmarine, but he is actually well suited to a Gunline army as in addition to repairing vehicles he can use his Bolster Defenses rule to make an area of ruins a better cover save.

there are 2 basic builds that are effective in a gunline

Tech Support: Wargear, Servo harness, Combi-plasma, and power sword. the primary purpose is for him to repair any damaged vehicles and add some anti-MEQ ability. if you place him on a bike he becomes harder to kill and he can get to damaged vehicles faster.

Fire Support: Wargear, Conversion beamer. as the weapon has a variable profile the range to the target determines its use. at longrange, and by extension early game, it is an anti-tank weapon. in mid to late game as the enemy moves closer it becomes an anti-infantry weapon. you can give him a bike to make him a mobile gunbattery as well as making him more resiliant to damage.

Servitors should purchased in a similer role to the MOTF.

tech support servitors: 5 servitors, no upgrades. they will serve as ablative wounds for a Tech Support MOTF and will make it much easier to repair vehicles. this unit will allow the MOTF(or a techmarine) to repair a vehicle automatically and he will have to lose 2 servitors before rolling at all.

Vehicle Repair breakdown for a Techmarine with Servoharness. 0 servitors=4+ to repair, 1 servitor=3+ to repair, 2 servitors=2+ to repair, 3-5 servitors=automatic repair.

Fire support servitors: 5 servitors, plasma cannons and heavy bolters. these act as ablative wounds for the Fire support MOTF and can add their considerable firepower to the Conversion beamer. remember that they must remain stationary to fire their weapons and so if taken the MOTF should probably not be given a bike.




Captain and Command squad

Captains are seen a decent units in their own right, but they fail to add anything to the rest of the army. they do however give acess to the Command squad, the opprotunity to spam special weapons. transport options are covered under the tactical squad entry.

Flamer squad: Captain with Combi-flamer and Lightining claw, Command squad with 4 flamers and 4 lightining claws. this squad is designed with hordes in mind. they intercept incoming enemy assaulters with 5 Flamer templates and follow up with an assault with rerolls to wound.

Plasma squad: Captain with Combi-plasma and Lightining claw, Command squad with 4 Plasma guns and 4 lightining claws. 5 rapid firing plasma guns can take out a MEQ squad or MC fairly quickely, Gets Hot is not an issue due to FNP from the Apothacary. the LCs are for when an assault is desired over firing their guns.

Melta squad: Captain with Combi-melta and Thunderhammer, Command squad with 4 meltaguns, 2 power fists, and 4 melta bombs. a squad designed for Tank and MC hunting.




Troops

Tactical Squad

The Humble tactical marine. jack of all trades, master of none as is generall held to be the case. this is true most of the time, but it doesn't have to be.

When forming a gunline army the size of the squad matters. always go for the full ten men. firstly because its the only way to get access to special and heavy weapons and allows for you to combat squad. for 180 points you get 10, BS4, T4 and 3+ save models. rather basic, but it forms the foundation upon which your gunline is formed.

a gunline, and for that matter any army types, Tactical squad is composed of 3 parts. a Special weapon squad, heavy weapon squad and transport and each has a different job to do.




Armament choices. you have many choices when it comes to arming your squads and each has its own purpose. each squad has its total cost in pts. (simply mix and match heavy weapons squads to your needs)

Special weapons squad: this squad will consist of the Sergeant and 4 marines. your first goal is to decide on which special weapon the squad will be carrying. the 3 choices are Flamer, Melta-gun and plasma gun. their primary purpose is to protect the heavy weapons squad and any other heay support units.

Flamer: the flamer has several virtues. first off its cheap, free in fact. if you give your squad a flamer it will become a fearsome anti-infantry squad. if your squad is given a flamer then your sergeant should take a Combi-flamer to support the squads purpose, frying infantry by the dozen. additionally a power weapon for the sergeant is an excellent choice.

Flamer squad: Sergeant with Combi-flamer and power weapon, Marine with flamer and 3 basic bolter boys. this squad should be tasked as a horde destroyer/intercept unit, a large unit of ork boyz or gaunts is a perfect target for this unit.

Melta-gun: the melta-gun, despite being short ranged is another effective option. a melta-gun makes the Special weapons squad a Tank intercepter. if you have a Landraider or a dreadnought coming in your direction it is perfect for this squad to intercept. the sergeant should be armed with a Combi-melta, Powerfist, and Melta bombs, again, to support the squad in their appointed purpose, Tank and Monsterous creature hunting.

a Melta squad: Sergeant with Combi-melta, powerfist and melta bombs, Marine with Melta-gun and 3 bolter boys. the power fist makes this squad expensive and as such you need to be careful with the squad. the sergeants melta-bombs are for tanks while the PF is for Monsterous creatures. because the squad is expensive you want to have it protected. Don't expose it to a squad of Orks boyz or howling banshees.

Plasma gun: the most expensive of the options, identical range to a bolter make it good at complimenting the squads bolters. a plasma gun is for MEQ hunting. the sergeant should have a Combi-plasma OR a Stormbolter and a power weapon.

Plasma Squad: Sergeant with combi-plasma or stormbolter and power weapon, marine with Plasma gun and 3 bolter boys. plasma squads should not be used to intercept enemy squads like the flamer and melta squads, but should be placed within the gunline as a midranged fire support squad. the sergeant can have either a SB or a Combi-plasma, stormbolter adds considerable to the squads long ranged firepower and is less risky, but 2 rapid firing plasma guns can potentially decimate a incoming MEQ squad or MC. the power weapon is to add to the squads anti-MEQ potential in CC.




Heavy weapon squad: this is what the tac squad adds to the gunline, up to 6 heavy weapons. these anchor the gunline firmly and hold back field objectives. weapon choices are Heavy bolter, Multi-melta, Missile launcher, Plasma cannon, and lascannon.

Heavy bolter: Cheap fire power. 3 Str5 AP4 shots up to 36". a heavy bolter gives you anti-horde at range and the potential to pop some transports if better targets don't present themselves.

heavy Bolter squad: Marine with Heavy bolter and 4 bolter boys. these guys can lay down a good quantity of fire for pretty cheap, once the enemy is in bolter range the firepower jumps exponentially. put them where they can dominate fire lanes between terrain features that act as natural funnels. excellent against hordes and MEQs due to volume of fire.

Multi-melta: cheap anti-tank, but short range and being unable to move and fire makes it a poor choice on Infantry. this is the one heavy weapon with little use. use its dangerous against tanks, but no enemy in his right mind is going to move his tank within 12" of this weapon, and if you go to him you can be he won't waste any time getting away before you have time to set up. the one use i do see in a MM squad is a form of area denial, a no go zone for tanks and walkers. if your opponent uses Landraider or dreadnought spam i can see it being effective, but it is limited to that use.

MM squad: marine with MM and 4 bolter boys. as an area denial for tanks it works well enough, but special weapon squads with Melta-guns work just as well and there are more effective choices for heavy weapons.

Missile launcher: Cheap, versitile, and long ranged. this is the most effective and points efficient heavy weapon in the space marine arsenal. the ability to lay down a Str4 AP5 blast template or a single Str8 AP3 shot is fantastic. you pop a transport and then blast the occupants the next turn.

Missile squad: Missile marine and 4 bolter boys. reach out and touch the enemy on the first turn, pop his transports and move on to his medium tanks or infantry.

Plasma Cannon: while it is more expensive then the previous options it still is relatively cheap, especially when compared with Devestator marines. a Str7 AP2 blast template makes this a MEQ or a MCs worst nightmare. wounding on a 2+ most of the time and no armour saves means what you hit you will most likely kill or wound. because its a blast weapon it can scatter, but the marines BS of 4 can make up for that giving you a 1/3 chance of a direct hit and a 2/3 chance for an average deviation of 3 inches. it has the same range as a heavy bolter and can be put to a similer purpose.

plasma cannon squad: Plasma cannon and 4 bolter boys. shoot at squads of MEQs or at MCs and keep them in the gunline.'

Lascannon: the ultimate space marine anti-tank weapon, the most expensive option for a Tac heavy weapon, but still dirt cheap. the lascannon is good for popping transports and any heavy and medium tank your opponent has. Long range means it will be shooting from turn 1.

lascannon squad: lascannon marine and 4 bolter boys. the bolters and the lascannon are completely at odds with each other as opposed to the other heavy and special weapon squads where they could at least help with the weapons purpose. Here the bolter boys are simply ablative wounds to allow the lascannon to remain in the fight. this squad should be placed in cover as it will be a priority target. while it is supposed to go tank hunting the lascannon can also be used against MCs for moderate effectvness.




Transport: there are 3 options for a Tacsquad and each has its use.

Rhino: a cheap ride for the special weapon squad or a bit of protection for the Heavy weapon squad. there are 2 ways to out fit a rhino for a gunline.

Dakka rhino: this rhino has an extra Stormbolter. 2 storm bolters add considerable anti-infantry firepower to the tank, works best with Flamer or melta-gun special weapons squads for drive by shootings and quick objective contesting or snatching late game.

Bunker rhino: the bunker rhino has a hunter killer missile. a single shot krak missile adds to the fire power of the heavy weapons squad inside. this rhino doesn't move, its purpose is for a heavy weapons squad to shoot out of its top hatch protected from enemy fire. because it isn't meant to move much a immobilized result isn't a huge loss, but it can also relocate the squad to a safer location if needed and it's still mobile.




Razorbacks: the best choice for a gunline Tac squad IMO. they add cheap, mobile heavy weapons to the gunline and can transport a squad in a pinch.

Bolterback: a stock Tl-heavy bolter and a purchased Stormbolter. this tank can add anti-infantry firepower where its lacking or simply add to what exists. pairs well with a heavy weapon squad with a Missile launcher or heavy bolter. 1/2 the squad should hide behind the tank for cover.

Flameback: a TL-heavy flamer. because of being a template weapon and that, at least firing forward, much of the flamer template will be unable to reach enemy models. if you take this option it will work well with a Flamer special weapon squad.

Dakkaback: TL-assault cannon and a Stormbolter. this tank can put out some serious anti-infantry and, thanks to rending, it is moderatively effective against enemy tanks. 4 Str6 AP4 rending shots will rip apart any infantry, wounding most on a 2+. works well with a Flamer or a Melta Special weapon squad.

Lazorback: TL-lascannon. a mobile anti-tank platform. works best with a lascannon or a missile launcher Heavy weapon squad. 1/2 the squad should hide behind the tank for cover.

Stronos Razorback: Lascannon, TL plasma gun and a Stormbolter. an anti-MEQ Razorback with some Anti-tank in a pinch. pairs well with any of the heavy weapon squads, but the Plasma cannon and Lascannon ones in particular. again 1/2 the squad should hide behind the tank for cover.




Drop Pod :not the best choice as far as transports in gunlines go, but there is 1 useful build and it should be taken in groups of at least 3 pods. Drop pod with Deathwind missile launcher: the pod should come down seperate from the squad. once landed the enemy will have to walk through a field of drop pods, each with a Str5 large blast template coming out each turn. annoying and not the most effective choice, but it can be useful against hordes.




Elites

Sternguard

a better tactical squad, 2 attacks, Ld9 and special ammo. whats not to love. these guys add their special ammo types to the gunline alongside the ability to spam Sepcial and Heavy weapons.

as they don't have a unit size requirement for Special and heavy weapons you don't have to take the full 10 men to get the shiny toys, but i highely reccomend it as it gives you bodies on the field.

Sternguard are pretty good in CC as well. 2 base attacks +1 for charging makes them very good against foes without similer armour saves or Power weapons. combine with assault weapons like flamers for a deadly assault unit that breaks the enemy with a wall of flame and slaps them while they're down.




Special weapons spam: if you run one of these units you may want to combat squad so you can split fire at seperate targets if needed. Cheap Combi weapons are the strength here.

Flamer: if you go this direction you will have good anti-infantry fire power. give every other model in the squad a Combi-flamer for a potential 10 flamer templates. as the squad will be operating close to the enemy and will be able to assault after shooting the sergeant should have a close combat weapon of some kind. i reccomend a lightining claw.

Flamer squad, 315 pts: 10 man strong, 2 flamers, 8 combi-flamers, Lightining claw. Fearsome close ranged power. against a 30 strong Boy mob you should net, assuming you are able to fire all 10 flamers, 20 dead orks before you assault. this assumes an average of 4 hits per flamer. afterwards you still have 2 flamers and your special issue ammo.

Melta gun: this makes the squad a scary tank hunting unit. every model should have a Combi-melta. the sergeant should have Melta bombs at least, a Powerfist makes the squad a little expensive so i reccomend a LC to discourage enemies who would assault you.

Melta Squad, 320 pts: 10 man strong, 2 melta guns, 8 combi-meltas, Lightining claw and melta bombs. you can combat squad to maximize the number of vehicles you are able to shoot at. the Melta bombs are for incase the melta guns somehow fail to do the job. this squad can also hunt MCs fairly well.

Plasma gun: Anti-MEQ and MC. again load up on combi-weapons. don't be scared about Gets Hot, a marine has exactly a 5% chance of dieing every time you fire, thats low. Lightining claw is optional as you can't assault after firing, but it is nice to have.

Plasma squad, 325 pts: 10 men, 2 plasma guns, 8 combi-plasma, Lightining claw. combat squad for multiple target pounding and incase one squad gets wiped.

Heavy Flamer: like the Flamer, but better. set up just like a Flamer squad, 2 HFs, 8 combi-flamers, and a LC.

Heavy flamer squad, 325 pts: 2 HFs, 8 combi-flamers, and LC. against an Ork mob this will net you more dead orks before charging to finish them off. well worth the extra pts.




Heavy weapons spam: Heavy weapons spam works like the special weapons spam. you can have Heavy and special weapons in a squad and treat them like a better tactical squad if you wish, but then it wouldn't be Spamastic would it? and a Gunline loves spam.

Heavy Bolter: good range and rate of fire. not a bad choice if you facing infantry heavy armies. its best to save the points and leave Combi weapons at home as you won't be very close to the enemy and your Special issue ammo can do the job quite nicely.

HB squad, 260 pts: 10 men, 2 heavy bolters. using krakan Bolts with the HB is good as they both have a long range.

Multi-melta: Paying pts to give up your Special ammo bolter for a short ranged static anti-tank weapon, on a tactical squad at least its free. i wouldn't pay the pts to lose my special bolter.

Multi-melta squad, 260 pts: 10 men, 2 MMs.

Missile launcher: good all around weapon. longranged anti-tank and close up the Frag blast can mesh well with any of the Special ammo types.

Missile squad, 260 pts: 10 men and 2 missile launchers.

Plasma cannon: anti-MEQ blast, same cost as a plasma gun, but longer ranged and possability for multiple hits. the one heavy weapon that goes well with a Combi-weapon.

Plasma cannon squad, 310 pts: 10 men, 2 plasma cannons, 8 combi-plasma. good for keeping MEQs away from your lines. Lascannon: another cheap infantry mounted lascannon alongside a tactical squad. it doesn't mesh with any of the special ammo you are carrying, but if you need more anti-tank its nice and cheap for its power.

Lascannon squad, 280 pts: 10 men and 2 lascannon.




Special ammo: the biggest difference between Sternguard and tactical marines, besides Sternguard all being Sergeants statwise, is the special ammo types.

Hellfire Rounds: prehaps the best known round. a bolter that always wounds on a 2+. useful against enemies that have high toughness like Wraithlords or enemies that have good saves that you are trying to force rolls on like terminators or Meganobs.

Dragonfire bolts: a bolter round that is able to ignore cover. if there is a mob of orks or swarm of gaunts coming towards you, but are in a forest this round is perfect. it will ignore both of those units armour save as well as their cover.

Kraken bolts: a range of 30" makes this the sniper round of the Sternguards arsenal. it has an AP of 4 making it useful against most types of armour on the battle field.

vengence rounds: AP3 makes this perfect for killing MEQs, but it does have the Gets Hot special rule and it only has an 18" range. but Gets Hot only has a 5% chance of killing you so don't be afraid to use it.




Another tactic worth considering alongside Sternguard is to take Pedro Cantor as an HQ. having all your Sternguard be scoring units can be very valuable if you need to make a push and stubborn can help you in combats you want to stay in.

as far as what, if any, transports you take for them. The same principals as for tactical squads applies as far as weapon synergy.




Dreadnought

the venerable battle brothers entombed within admantium coffins to continue their service to Him on earth. And prehaps one of the most versitile units in the Space marine codex.

there are 2 types of dreadnoughts, Fire support and assault.

Fire support: these builds are meant to provide dakka and are quintessientiall to a Gunline army. they stand back at a distance and make their presense felt accross the board.

Rifleman: 2 Tl-autocannons. this armament is both versitile and effective. TL means it wil rarely miss and 4 Str7 shots will damage infantry, MCs and transports alike. being a walker it can move around and fire both weapons to full effect, this allows it to avoid threats while still doing its job. make it venerable for a vehicle that will miss a shot once in a blue moon.

Dakkadred: TL-lascannon and Missile launcher. an Anti-vehicle platform. perfect for sniping transports. it can also hunt MEQs to some effect with the frag missile option. again you can make it venerable for a vehicle that will miss a shot only rarely.

Dakkaman: TL-autocannon and missile launcher. a cross between the Dakkadred and rifleman. it puts out less TL shots for the potential of more anti-infantry and a stronger anti-tank shot.

Furystorm: Plasma cannon and missile launcher. an anti-horde/MEQ build. the 2 blast markers can lay down some hurt from a fair distance.

Boltstorm dread: TL-heavy bolter and TL-autocannon. cheap firepower at a cost of anti-transport ability. good against hordes of gribblies.

Assault: these dreadnoughts are meant for smashing things in CC. it may seem out of place in a Gunline army, but they provide a counter charge element and can intercept enemy units aiming for squishier targets.

Assault dred: Assault cannon and DCCW with heavy flamer, the classic dreadnought build. a good quantity of short-midranged firepower coupled with the DCCW to crush whats left. a well balanced build.

Flamestorm dred: TL-heavy flamer and DCCW with Hvy flamer. cheaper then an assault dred with increased short ranged power at the cost of ranged ability. good against hordes.

Ironclad: Seismic hammer, DCCW, 2 heavy flamers, and 2 hunter killers. the ultimate in short ranged death with 2 single shot longrange transport poppers. more expensive then anyother option(unless a venerable is taken) but extreamly effective in CC and against hordes.




Note on Dreadnoughts and MOTF: if taken the MOTF allows you to have 6 dreadnoughts and this can be an excellent addition to a gunline. if you do this you should have 4 fire support and 2 assault dreds. fire support dreds stay back and fire away supported by the MOTFs repair ability while the assault dreds can act as bodyguards.

Venerable: on all the dreds, except the ironclads, you can make them Venerable for a pip in durability, BS, and WS that can make them much more scary if you have the points. TL-weapons that hit on 2+ are scary and WS5 will hit most enemies on 3s. Rerolls on the damage table effectively double the survivability as well.

When should i reroll a damage result with the Venerable rule?

on Glancing hits. 5s and 6s should be rerolled. this makes you all but immune to any permanent damage from a glance.

on Penetrating hits. 5s and 6s again. Immobilized results aren't a huge issue for a Gunline dreadnought that is just shooting its weapons from a distance and you can repair weapon destroyed and immobilized results with the MOTF and Techmarines. you can't repair Wrecked and explode results.

also, park venerable dreadnoughts in cover. Cover saves and the Venerable special rule can be used together so take advantage of it to make the dreadnought all but invincible.




Tactical Terminators

tactical terminators are seen as a subpar terminator unit especially compared with TH/SS terminators. I1 in CC and only a 5+ invuln makes them vulnerable to power and AP2 weaponry. they are however perfect for a Gunline army.

the build you want for them is the following.

5 terminators and 1 clyclone missile launcher or 10 terminators and 2 clyclone missile launchers.

the tactic on this is massed bolter fire backed up by 4 Str4 AP5 blast or 4 Str8 AP3 shots.

on the first turn you can begin picking off transports or thinning hordes down with the missile launchers. once the enemy is in range of the bolters they become even deadlier. another advantage to the Missile launchers is that they retain use of their stormbolters if purchased, something you lose with assault cannons and heavy flamers.

you might say the Powerfists are being wasted, but they do serve a purpose. the ability to take a tank down in CC and more importantly a deterrent to MCs which will take advantage of their ability to ignore your armor.




Fast Attack

Landspeeder

fast, hardhitting and cheap, but fragile. there are 2 basic classes of speeders, Gunboat and suicide.

Gunboat: these varities operate best in squadrons where the combined fire power can be used to best advantage. also never mix and mach speeder armament in a squadron, one weapon or another will be wasted each shooting phase.

Landspeeder Typhoon: my personall favorite with a typhoon missile launcher and heavy bolter. better and cheaper then an equilivilant abount of devestators(45 pt difference) each speeder can throw 2 krak missiles down range while moving 12" a turn OR it can move 12" and throw down 2 Str4 AP5 blast templates as well as 3 Str5 AP4 shots from the HB. remember tht Frag missiles count as Defensive weapons and so you can move 12" and fire all weapons to full effect. Imagine 3 such speeders in a squadron firing at an enemy unit, 9 Str5 AP4 shots and 6 Str4 AP5 Blast templates OR 6 Str8 AP3 shots, there won't be much left of anything after they are done.

Landspeeder Tornado: Heavy bolter and assault cannon. this type has a decent range, but must remain stationary to use all weapons and has to operate closer to the enemy then the typhoon. cheaper Landspeeder Tornado: 2 heavy bolters. this tornado type has longer range then the above varity, but has the same basic problem.




Suicide speeder: these should be taken singly as having them in a squadron simply compounds the points cost problem and can throw more weapons fire then is needed making them too expensive for what they do. the exception is described below with the tactics.

landspeeder tornado:Multi-melta and heavy flamer this is a very popular build, but i can't really understand why. Multi-melta's are for killing LRs and HFs are for infantry. i understand the "versaility" argument, but lets think about it. 70 pts for a AV10 vehicle that will at the most get one Melta shot off at your opponents LR, if it kills it; great, it just made its points back 3 time over plus a little extra, but if you don't kill it then you have a wrecked vehicle on your hands and 70 pts down the toilet. and even if you kill the Landraider and then it dies you have still wasted the points for the flamer. In addition to this problem the vehicle can't use both if it moves and this is one vehicle that wants to keep moving.

Suicide Speeder: Multi-melta OR a heavy flamer. this is a more sensable build over the above one. this is a vehicle that is meant to zoom up to a Landraider or Squad of FW/ork boyz/gaunts and lay into them. it will then likely die or if you are lucky survive to repeat the tactic. it is cheap which makes it alot better choice over the MM/HF Landspeeder.




Speeder Tactics: heres a couple of tactical maneuveres that are useful with Speeders in a gunline army.

False flank: this is a type of refused flank deployment that is a very tricksy move. it works best with 3 squadrons of 3 Typhoons. you want to deploy first and deploy your army on one flank except for your speeders, they are placed spread out along the other flank. this gives the illusion of a uniform deployment and your opponent will expect a standard spreadout gunline, but on your first turn you will move your speeders over with the rest of your forces. most refused flank deployments are done by the player going second, but you have just done it by going first. the result is enemy forces that, unless similerly mobile, will be stuck on one end of the board.




Wall of Flame: the exception to only taking suicide speeders singly. this tactic requires a full squadron of landspeeders with Heavy flamers and obviously works best against an infantry heavy foe. the speeders are deployed on a flank while the rest of the force sets up normally. the speeders then advance up the flank and then turn to face the enemy flank. they will then procede to move 6-12" a turn, stopping to give an enemy unit a promethium bath each turn, go down the enemy line untill you reach the end, rinse and repeat from the other side. this can be done with multiple squadrons if desired, but only if there are large quantity of infantry models on table.







Heavy Support

Predator tank

the Space marine main battle tank. Decent armor combined with some good builds for decent points costs. it is best to take predators in groups of 2.

there are 3 viable builds for predator tanks.

Annihilator pattern: Tl-lascannon turret and 2 lascannon sponsons. Expensive, slowmoving and powerful. no PotMS means all 3 lascannons are after the same target, if that target is a Lemun Russ or Killa kan squadron then its fine, but if its a single side armor shot on a Battlewagon then it might be overkill. very effective at what it does, but is pretty expensive.

Destructor pattern: Autocannon turret and 2 heavy bolter sponsons. cheap Dakka and lots of it. Effective against hordes of enemy models with the ability to threaten medium and light tanks if required. very effective for the points cost.

Maverick pattern: autocannon and 2 lascannon sponsons. a comprimise between the Annhilator and Destructor patterns. the maverick should be tasked with hunting medium tanks and, if there are no more vehicles, MEQs. 4 shots can down enough Marines to make it worth its points while still being powerful enough to stop tanks.




Vindicator

there is really only 1 build of Vindicator, so this focus is on tactics.

a Str10, AP2 Pieplate makes the vindicator the most powerful tank in the SM codex.

the major question is "how many?"

i say 3. that means no predators, Landraiders that aren't DTs, TFCs, Devestators, or Whirlwinds.

the effectivness of Vindicators is summed up in this. 1 Vindicator will die, 2 are twice as survivable, 3 are 4 times as survivable(Law of Squares)

Vindicators are defensive NOT offensive tanks, you BA players out there(you know who you are, you cheezy little gits) have Fast on your vindicators allowing you to use vindicators offensively and thus may ignore this.

it is the 24" range and the fact it can't move more then 6" that makes them a defensive tank, perfect for a gunline. you should place your vindicators in cover overlooking a nice patch of open ground, hopefully where only the Front armor is visable. if an objective based mission place an objective right there in the open. now you have a nice open ground objective that is right in the firing line of the most powerful blast weapon outside of an Appoc game. Area denial.

a vindicator placed every so often along the gunline army will cread a bubble of area denial that your opponent will have to cross to reach you. no one likes to have a Str10 template dropped on them, 3 even more so.




Landraider

Landraiders are the toughest tanks in the game next to Monoliths, but they don't have the danger of disappearing.

Phobos: 2 TL-lascannons and a Tl-Heavy bolter. the best varity for a gunline. thanks to PotMS you can fire the heavy bolter at advancing infantry while the lascannons fire at a menacing tank OR you can split the lascannons between tanks. the ability to fire a weapon while shaken is also very important on all varities.

Crusader: if your gunline has a large quantity of anti-tank a crusader can add some needed anti-infantry fire to your force. if a MM is purchased you can fire it at a tank by the PotMS while the Assault cannon and bolters mow down infantry.

Redeemer: the Redeemer is valuable in a Gunline as an area denial mechanism. it is designed as a offensive tank, but should be used as Area denial in a Gunline as the focus is on overwhealming firepower. no enemy shy of a terminator will go anywhere near an AP3 flamer and for good reason. it can move 6" and split its 2 flamers at different targets that are advancing on your lines. Alternativly it could be used charge the enemy lines and do the same thing with its flamers to draw attention, and fire, away from your gunline, but it isn't the best use of its points.




Thunderfire cannon

a heavy support choice that suffors from "glass cannon" syndrome. the reason many people detest it is not because it isn't effective at what it does or its points cost, but because it competes for a Heavy support slot with Landraiders, Predators, and Vindicators. It does come into its own in lower point games where SMs are still out numbered, but can't afford the more expensive toys.

it is however extreamly cheap for what you get, a techmarine with a Servoharness, Bolster Defenses AND gun with a 60" range and different ammo types.

TFCs are best taken in groups of 3, you can fit other big guns in your list via a Terminator LR transport Tactical squads, and Dreadnoughts.

each TFC should be placed in a ruin, this should give the Gun a 4+ cover save and the techmarine a 3+(due to Bolster) making it more survivable.




3 TFC gives you considerable fire power at your disposal. 12 blast templates that can either wound infantry on a 2+, ignore cover or cause Difficult terrain checks.

TFCs are great for slowing down ork or tyranid hordes with the Subterranean blast while also doing some damage. or pinning an eldar flying circus down long enough for you to catch them. Skimmers hate the TFC for its ability to have a 15% chance of a immobilized result.

Infantry out in the open will not apreciate having 4 Str6 AP5 templates dropped on them either, multiply this times 3 and you have a positive deluge of dakka coming down on them.


Picking your units
there are many units that can be chosen for a Gunline, but they all fall into 1 of 4 different Catagories depending on how you use it. the Catagories are Anchor, Lineholder, Interceptor, and Support.

Anchors
Anchors are those units tasked with holding a vital position, like your flank or a vulnerable spot in your center. they must be durable and capable of defending themselves without much support.
you should always have at least 1 anchor unit to protect one side of your gunline. if there is a vital objective you can place the Anchor on top of it to deny it to the enemy or hold it at all costs.
Anchor units: Landraiders, Tactical terminators.
one way you might use a Anchor unit: you have 10 tactical terminators and place them on your right flank near the board edge because there is a forest near the center of that table edge that provides cover to a large mob of orks that are marching up that flank and only the Terminators can shoot at the orks without giving a cover save.
Lineholders
Lineholders form the bulk of your Gunline and most of your units will fall into this catagory. their goal is to shoot the enemy as long as possable.
Lineholder units: Heavy weapon combat squads, Dreadnoughts with 2 weapons that have at least a 36" range, Predator tanks, Landspeeder typhoons, Landraiders, Tactical terminators, Sternguard with a Heavy weapon, and Vindicators.

Interceptor
the Interceptor's goal is to prevent your opponent from engaging your gunline in Melee by either destroying them or tieing them up long enough for your other units to escape. Interceptors should hang back and only expose themselves once the enemy gets close.
Interceptor units: Assault terminators, Assault marines, Captains, Librarians, Chaplains, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Dreadnoughts with DCCWs and a weapon with a range of no more then 24", Landraider Crusaders and Redeemers, Sternguard with Special weapons, Combat squads with Special weapons.
an exampkle of an interceptor units use: your opponent has a Battlewagon full of Burnas heading for your Gunline. you quickly zip a Combat squad in a rhino out there, the Sergeant and a marine inside fire their Meltagun and Combi-Melta at the Wagon turning it into a pile of slag. now the burnas will have to walk exposing themselves to fire from your other units.

Support
Support units don't really fit in the gunline, but they increase the Gunlines ability to function, weather by providing a service to your other units or providing additional firepower where needed.
Support units: MOTF with or without a Conversion beamer, Techmarine, TFC, Whirlwind, Librarians.
Support example: a Techmarine or MOTF can repair your dreadnoughts allowing them to keep firing OR a TFC firing its subterrainian shells to slow a mob of orks or make an enemy vehicle take a Dangerous terrain test.


Placement
Placement of your units is Key to having your gunline run properly. you need to be able to drop fire where and when you need it.
When Deploying your units you should deploy all units of the same type at the same time. also place your longest ranged weapons first. (this is of course barring any special deployment in the mission)
a typical deployment order would be: MOTF with conversion beamer, 3 Riflemen dreds, Landraider, 3 Combat squads with Lascannons, 3 Tactical squads with Meltaguns, combi-meltas in rhinos, MOTF with 5 Servitors.
Deploying your units in this order allows you to set up firing lanes for your big guns without the distraction of the rest of your army being in the way, the small guns are there to protect your big guns and should be placed afterwards in aposition relative to the long ranged units.

Formation
this has to do with how your units are placed relative to each other. idealy you will set up fire lanes, lanes that are covered with a varity of weapons. idealy each of your units will be able to cover 2 fire lanes allowing you to put fire where its needed.
say you have 2 riflemen dreds, 2 missile launcher combat squads(each with a Razorback with Lascannon/Tl-plasma gun), and a Command squad with 4 plasma guns in a rhino. in the middle of the board are 3 area terrain features, each is around 6x6 and is 6"-8" away from the next terrain feature and 6"-8" away from your deployment zone. those terrain features create 4 unobstructed fire lanes that you can cover.
where do you deploy your units and why?
you should place your Dreadnoughts directly opposite each of the terrain features. this will allow them to fire into the the 2 lanes to either side of the feature. the missile launcher squads should be on either side of the center Dred and facing the 2 center fire lanes, this allows them to cover each others lane and the 2 side lanes if needed. the Razorbacks should be providing cover to the 2 squads(place the missile wielder in front and have the rest of the squad at max choherency leading in a conga line toward the rear of the Razorback.
the command squad is your wildcard. place them in the rhino and have them behind the line of Marines and Dreds. they will sit tight until a fat juciy target gets close to the edge of the terrain features and then they will zoom up, get out and rapid fire whatever it was with 8 plasma shots.

Target priority

this is prehaps where new players(and many old) fail the most. what do i shoot at and with what and how do i determine threat level?
the key here is, don't be afraid to put a unit in danger if it will save the rest of your army.
say you have a large mob of Ard boyz that somehow survived your fire and are almost in charge range of several of your Heavy weapon tactical squads, but you have a unit of Sternguard with 5 combi-flamers nearby. you should immedeatly have your sternguard move up, fire the flamers, assault them,and move your heavy weapons as far away as possable(run if you have to) even though the Sternguard will likely get slaughtered they will kill a few orks and allow your, more important, heavy weapons to escape. meanwile the rest of your army was getting ready to pound those orks as soon as they finish munching on your sternguard.

If you have several units coming at you. say there is a Deffdred 20" away, a Trukk with 12 slugga boyz 24" away, and a 20 strong mob of Ard Boyz 12" away, but they are in a forest so will take a while to get here. who do you shoot?
you will shoot the Ard boyz first. Why?
Because they are a bigger threat in the long run, the trukk boyz and Deffdread won't be in Close combat for at least 2 turns, the Ard boyz could be here next turn if they roll well(always assume your opponent will roll above average) and/or a Waaagh is called.

I hope this helps you use your gunline effectivly.
"I have traveled far and seen much. yet nothing warms my heart so much as the sight of a gun so massive that its fury makes the very world tremble"-Darnath Lysander





[Edit]Sample Army Lists
[Edit]1000 points
This list has anti-infantry power in the effective(abeit expensive)command squad and Thunderfire cannon. The tactical squads provide anti-tank and MEQ ability as well as being able to hold objectives from inside the anti-tank/MC Lazorbacks

HQ Captain with Combi-flamer, Artificer armor, and LC Command squad with 4 flamers and 4 LCs.

Troops 10 man Tactical squad with Combi-melta, PF, Melta gun and missile launcher. Razorback with TL-lascannon.

10 man Tactical squad with Comb-plasma, power weapon, Plasma gun and Missile launcher. Razorback with TL-lascannon.

Heavy Support Thunderfire cannon




[Edit]2000 points
This list can throw an obscene abount of long ranged anti-infantry in the form of 4 TL-autocannons, 13 missile launchers, 3 heavy bolters. for medium and short ranged ranged anti-infantry there are 2 TL-assault cannons, 4 flamers, and 1 plasma gun. for long ranged anti-tank there is 13 Krak missiles, 5 lascannons(2 are TL) and the 4 TL-autocannons. Short anti-tank is formed of 2 melta-guns, and 2 Powerfist armed units.

HQ MOTF with Servo harness, Combi-plasma and power sword. 5 Servitors.

Troops 10 man tactical squad with Combi-flamer, power weapon, Flamer, and Lascannon. Razorback with TL-Assault cannon, Dozerblade, and Stormbolter.

10 man tactical squad with Combi-flamer, power weapon, Flamer, and Lascannon. Razorback with TL-Assault cannon, Dozerblade, and Stormbolter.

10 man tactical squad with Combi-melta, power fist, melta gun, and Lascannon. Razorback with TL-lascannon and Dozerblade.




Elites Dreadnought with TL-lascannon and missile launcher.

Dreadnought with 2 TL-autocannons.

Dreadnought with 2 TL-autocannons.




Fast Attack

3 Landspeeders with Typhoon missile launchers.

3 Landspeeders with Typhoon missile launchers.

Jesus Templar....

The wonders of doing work in the past and copy/paste in the future.
I think a linky would have been enough...

You don't see me flinging my Biker tactica left and right , just kidding Templar.

Sanct
but there are things in the space marine book that are great.... even by my demanding standards.... land speeders... vulkan.... assasult terminators....

even by their own standard jack of all trades/master of none tac marines still suck. I mean look at their heavy weapons role. whose going to park a 200+ point squad for a turn in order to shoot 1 yes 1 heavy weapon? even the best heavy weapon has less than a 1 in 3 chance of downing an armored target in cover. or to deliver 1 special weapon attack? then again whats the point of charging with these guys at 2 attacks a piece? it's not that they are just ok at everything. it's that they are borderline useless at everything. give me a unit that does 1 thing well and let me play so I can take full advantage of that 1 thing. the other stuff I can work around.

AF

Sanctjud wrote:The wonders of doing work in the past and copy/paste in the future.
I think a linky would have been enough...

You don't see me flinging my Biker tactica left and right , just kidding Templar.

i would do a linky, but can't figure out how(not my best working with computers and all the dohickies and Knicknacks)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanct
but there are things in the space marine book that are great.... even by my demanding standards.... land speeders... vulkan.... assasult terminators....

even by their own standard jack of all trades/master of none tac marines still suck. I mean look at their heavy weapons role. whose going to park a 200+ point squad for a turn in order to shoot 1 yes 1 heavy weapon? even the best heavy weapon has less than a 1 in 3 chance of downing an armored target in cover. or to deliver 1 special weapon attack? then again whats the point of charging with these guys at 2 attacks a piece? it's not that they are just ok at everything. it's that they are borderline useless at everything. give me a unit that does 1 thing well and let me play so I can take full advantage of that 1 thing. the other stuff I can work around.

AF

Well, thats what Combat Tactics is for. so you don't have to stick the 200 point squad in one place just to shoot the missile.

when you combat squad you gain everything.

a Tactical squad with Powerfist, Combi-melta, Melta gun and Lascannon is 225 pts

combat squad and you have a Powerfist and 2 meltaguns in a squad that costs 125 pts and a Lascannon with 4 ablative wounds that costs 100 pts.

you have 125 pts that can kill almost any vehicle up close and a 100 pt squad that can take pock-shots at enemy tanks and MCs all game(even if it kills just 1 transport at the beginning, it made a squad have to hoof it accross the board and delayed the enemy)


Tac squads are dirt cheap and highly effective when outfited correctly. and used correctly(if you can't make your squads preform you are doing something wrong. i couldn't do a thing with them for several years)

Templar
good point about combat squads. you dont have to park quite so many points. I guess that makes them less inefficient. I still wouldnt go so far as to call them good...

I mean lets talk about a squad say 1 lascannon 1 flamer 1 combi flamer. combat squad it out and youve got 1 unit that has something like a 1 in 9 chance of killing a vehicle in cover, and another squad that can deliver 2 flamer attacks one time. the flamer half I can see but the lascannon half?

look at it this way lets say you combat squad 4 tac squads to get 4 lascannons and 20 marines sitting on your rear objective and then everything else goes forward to attack their objective. you're facing 2000 points of theirs with 1600 points of yours + 4 lascannons. are those 4 lascannons worth that many points? even with scoring? you'll definitely be at a disadvantage, almost 4 to 3, in the fight surrounding their objective. to me you win the game by concentrating force.... to prevent uneven confrontations like that.
AF

give me a unit that does 1 thing well and let me play so I can take full advantage of that 1 thing.

Maybe Eldar would be good for you.
______________
Then it's a playstyle issue. You can say they are crap, but there have been many experiences by players who use them who are able to make them work exceedingly well for them. They are able to make maximum use of the flexibility they bring.

I still don't understand why you think they are crap when you have the whole internet to browse for batreps and such that not just tell, but show you how well or poorly they do.

SM have a specific way of being played, if it doesn't tickle your fancy it doesn't mean it's crap.

You can say they are crap, but there have been many experiences....
sanct even a broken clock is right twice a day. lets say someone does floor an opponent with tac marines. so? you have to look at whats likely to happen, not what sometimes happens.

Ive said like 10 times now why I dont like marines. but if I have to type it an 11th time oh well.
1. they are overpriced
2. they have 1 attack a piece
3. they have a dinky pea shooter gun
4. their 3+ armor isnt worth what your paying for it when anyone can get 4+ cover for free.

now if you dont find that convincing thats 1 thing, but dont say you dont understand why I dont like them. thats crazy talk.

AF

@AF,

Did you remember the old days of Las/Plas?
--------------------------------
It's not about making your points back.
If those Lascannon take out their mobility and keep them away: win.
If they are applied at something that you needed them for, they are doing their job.
The other members are there to protect it, granted they don't do much else, but this is not a mystery and has been around since the beginning of this game's existance.

The comparison is not as one side as you think.
Lose lascannon squads don't suddenly become immobile. If the opponent is coming at you, you can shoot them, or if it's beneficial, you can charge them , or move up to double tap, etc.

I'm sure you have, but have you used Tacticals extensively or (in you case) make them worked by trying them out?
It seems you don't know them intimately as someone that actually uses them. There are nuances to units like these you don't perceive or come up with through Theoryhammer.

tac squad lascannons are the cheapest lascannons Marines have. 100 pts for a 5 wound lascannon? yes please. if you park that baby in cover it can shoot pretty much all game. if your opponent tries to kill it he will likely send more then 100 pts after it.


also, the 5 marines with 2 flamers can do remarkably well against many times their cost of troops.

5 tac marines, flamer, combi-flamer and power weapon vs 30 ork boyz with klaw.

Tac marines first round of shooting with bolters. 4 shots, 2.5 hits, 1.25 wound, 1 dead ork.

29 orks move closer and run.

Tac marine move backwards and fire. 8 bolter shots. 4 hits, 3 dead orks

Marines are in charge range. 3 bolt pistols. 2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead ork. Flamers, 8 hits(4 each) 4 wounds, 4 dead orks. 5 total.

marines assault 21 orks. 8 normal attacks, 3 power attacks. 4 normal attacks hit, 1.5 power hits. 1 ork dies, 4 armour saves. 3.36 fail. 4 dead orks. 5 total. 16 orks swing back. 30 normal, 3 power. 15 normal hit, 1.5 power hit. 1 marine dies. 10 normal wounds, 2 failed saves.

orks take 2 fearless wounds and likely lose 2 more orks.

next round. Marines will likely kill 1 more ork and will get killed.


marines did lose, BUT they held up thos 30 orks and did quite a bit of damage. add in supporting fire from other marine units and those orks will go down.

Sanct
I used tac marines out of the chaos codex alot. I decided I didnt like them and then switched to the marine codex. so yes I dont have a whole lot of experience using them out of the marine book. but I can read a stat line like anyone else. if the chaos tacs dont measure up (and to me they do not) then how can imperials? "combat squads" ok well lets look at that. which is what we're doing.

you're right it's not about making your points back. it's about delivering your threats neutralizing theirs and holding objectives. but when you have a force imbalance of 2000 to 1600 you have to expect the player with 2000 points to have the advantage. It's just a way to simplify the tactical situation. Complicated situations can be reduced to simplicity and clarity by removing extraneous information. Just looking at the points allocation is I admit pretty extreme and obviously doesnt tell the whole story, but I think it provides some pretty useful information.

I mean if I said to you lets play a game I'll have 2000 points you'll have 1600 you would balk. Well how is it any different if I charge your 2000 points with my 1600? What would not have been acceptable before the game somehow becomes actually a good thing on turn 2. That doesnt make any sense.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey templar
well if you think that 100 points is a good price for a 5 wound scoring lascannon I cant argue that. To me its self evident that its a bad deal so there isnt that much else to say I guess.
AF

you have to look at whats likely to happen, not what sometimes happens.

So.......you are contradicting this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/quote/0/1770891.page

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
I don't like bolters. Here's why:
About a year ago I dumped a *company* worth of rapid firing bolters into 10 fortuned wraith lord. did not kill 1. not even 1.
AF

________________________________

As for your reasons, people have responded to your top 4.
1. They are priced for having a 'free' Vet, Special, and Heavy.
2. They are not built for a purely
3. It's a standard weapon, what are you expecting? Throwing out gamebalance to make them Movie Marines?
4. It's a Rules problem, not theirs.

all that 1600 pts has to do is contest his objectives while the 400 pts of lascannons are holding mine.

in KP missions the lascannons really shine as they one shot transports for easy KPs. and they can whittle down MCs or exposed ICs too.


Edit: would gladly drop Combat tactics to get a CCW in addition to my Bolter and bolt pistol.

Sanct
about the wraithguard no that's more or less what you an expect. here's my math:
150 bolter shots (when your shooting a whole company some will not be rapid fire range)
100 hit (2/3 of 150)
16 wound (1/6 of 100)
5 fail saves (1/3 of 16)
1 or 2 fail fortune rerolls (1/3 of 5)
that to me is not an acceptable result of applying that much firepower. like I said if they had been 10 plasmaguns instead of 100 bolters I would have killed them all.

Yes you did respond to my points. so you knew what they were. unless you didnt know what they were... in which case you didnt know what you were talking about a/w why you would say you dont know why I like bolters I dont understand. its crazy talk. you know perfectly well. you just dont agree.
AF