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I can read a stat line like anyone else.

Which is my point.
Some of what you have proposed is base on Theoryhammer...by what you read at face value. Which is not always how it works when you get to a game....for more than just a handful of game mind you.

2000 to 1600 is not accurate. The opponent will have elements that are not entirely focused on the advancing portion. What about the stuff the Lascannon manage to neutralize? What about transport costs that may not contribute to the actual killing of the opponent.

What about reserves? What about forced redeployment by Marines castling, etc, etc.
It comes back to the whole "the game is simple" vs. "the game is more complex than that".

If we had a game where you have 2000 and I have 1500, it would be a one-off game. To be brutally honest I've done these kinds of fights and it's toss up. There are so many variables that will lead to one being the victor and the other loser. It will not always be the 2000 pointer being the victor... I don't know about others, but I've been in campaigns where situations like these arise frequently enough. The best example I have would have been a bat rep over in 40KO from a bit ago where I did have 2000 vs. 1500 and I still won with the 1500 force.

It may be immaterial to you what my experiences are, but is it that hard to accept that there are indirect ways that make seemingly crap options better than they look?

Take Kroot for example...You changed your mind from complete Crap to.... Crap but with one decent role to perform...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

when your shooting a whole company some will not be rapid fire range

So you forgot and left out this *minor* detail? And so exaggereted what was presented as one of your pieces of evidence to support your claim?

Sanct
about theory hammer:
well that's why we're discussing it. The price of looking at things in black and white is that sometimes you're wrong. the price of looking at things in shades of grey is that you're never right. or wrong. you're just kinda... you know... grey.

about 2000 vs 1600
you know if I cant pin you down to the simple statement that the player who has 2000 has an advantage over the player who has 1600 then... lol... idk...whatever. its like why bother. this is really obvious.

about your experiences.
there are indeed indirect ways that make seemingly crap options better than they look. you have to look at what is going to happen most of the time not what might happen some of the time. I dont doubt that you and other people have gotten alot out of tactical marines in the past. I dont doubt that spawn can be good in some circumstances. I dont doubt that possessed can put the beat down on the bad guys from time to time. What I'm telling you is that these are the exception not the norm.

about the bolters. well throw in the other bolters if you want. it will kill maybe 1 more. I was pointing out that weight of fire doesnt handle everything. you cant rely on it. you need a weapons load out that will handle everything. you should upgrade bolters to special weapons when you can. I keep saying that. w/e.
AF

Sanct
about theory hammer:
well that's why we're discussing it.

But you are reinstating your Thoeryhammer opinions as still standing on their two legs, while you ignore or do not acknowledge opinions of those who have table-top experience.

The price of looking at things in black and white is that sometimes you're wrong.

Very true, it goes for you, and me, and everybody to "know the whole situation without oversimplication."

the price of looking at things in shades of grey is that you're never right. or wrong. you're just kinda... you know... grey.

And that is the state of all things. There are nuances to unit you will not get from looking at them on paper.
Everything involves uncertainty with 40K and indirect positive contributions may not be apparent at first glance.

2000 vs. 1600.
Have you tried it?
Why do I need to say that the 2000 side has an advantedge? I look to what I can do with the 1600, I don't doom and gloom and complain, if that's what is on my plate, I make due with what I have.
And I so happened won due to mission objectives.

What I'm telling you is that these are the exception not the norm.

I will agree with this statement about at least the Chaos choices.
With Tactical Squads, I can't agree that the norm finds them wanting in lists...count less battle reports, count less lists, count less blogs/forums those Tacticals will be there more often then Scouts or Bikers.
If I were to agree with you then alot of people are forcing themselves to play really poor lists, even in Tourneys and such.

I was pointing out that weight of fire doesnt handle everything. you cant rely on it. you need a weapons load out that will handle everything. you should upgrade bolters to special weapons when you can. I keep saying that.

'It doesn't handle everything' is true, but the application of that fire power has to be rational. Bolter 'CAN' kill Wraithguard, but they are not made for that role, nor is weight of fire primarily applied against them. What I can agree on is that it's desperate...but pays off with lady luck on your side, you can't deny that. In practice, crap rolling happens and I've seen Wraithbone Walls falter pretty hard.

No body is saying to NOT take special weapons. Bolters are there to suppliment. Bolters are free and free to be used or not. Even if you don't like them, you still use them of course, right? And that's the thing, they are standard equipment and with that respect they do a whole lot that earns them at least indifference from players.

I mean... what other standard/free weapon can:
-Shoot at 24"
-Double the output at 12"
-Threaten AV 10
-Able to wound reliably MEQ and GEQ
-Bypass 1/3 of the Armor saves of the game

Certainly they don't 'do it all' and are (from your perspective I guess) painfully average...but that's what you get for a free weapon.

Well, your main issue is that you're running the crappiest units in the SM Codex: Devastators and Assault Marines.


IMO, Vanilla Marines are only competitive with an Independent Character, or by spamming mobile ranged units (Land Speeders mostly), Vindicators, etc., and having the bare minimum number of Tactical Squads.

If you've got the cash, grab yourself a Blood Angels dex and play your Marines as counts-as Blood Angels. You have 99% of the same choices as Vanilla Marines, minus the specific independent characters, yet everything is cheaper, faster, and overall better.

Sanct

my point is this and only this.
if you get the chance to upgrade a boltgun you should do it. you should minimize the ratio of bolt guns to special weapons in your army.

do you agree or disagree?
or am I in for another 4000 words of pure ambivilance?
AF

Yes to ambivilence and no to 4000 words.
How?:

if you get the chance to upgrade a boltgun you should do it.

Yes. And as fellow biker users happiness ensues.

you should minimize the ratio of bolt guns to special weapons in your army.

No. They (bolters) have been useful for me and I rather not give up body count for more special weapons as something has to give.

/shrug. There is no other way to describe it. They have been useful for me and are not useful for you. It's just how it is.

JFizzle51 wrote:After countless battles that ended with me packing up my army in shame i started to think. Which tactic could i use to make my space marines unstoppable?

I've tried assault oriented armies with lots of fast attack choices but i just got destroyed by long range weaponry.

I've tried pounding my opponent from afar with ranged weaponry but i cant seem to win.

I just need to know what is the best combination for a SM army and how could i best use them.

Please help.

Here are my suggestions
1) Go to youtube and watch some videos on Warhammer Tactics. Learn about denied flanks, castling, etc.
2) Post your army lists. Take critiques and listen to them.
3) If you want to win, some pretty models may not be what you want. IE - Legion of the Damned are pretty, but their not seen in competitive lists.
4) Don't be afraid to lose models. Its OK to sacrifice a squad to win the game. I model dying from 'gets hot' is not the end of the world.
5) The game is about Objectives or VP. If going to ground on 3 objectives for turns 5 and 6 win you the game, do it! Many new players forget that and just try to kill enemy models.
6) After each game, ask the other player "What did I do right?" and "What could I have done differently?".
7) Think like chess. Your strategy is your overall battle idea, your tactics are how you accomplish them. Think of a strategy and work your tactics to make it work.

In my FLGS, the majority of players never really try to learn how to get better at this game. They don't try to learn new tactics or strategy, and they never figure out why their lose often. Asking how to get better makes you 90% of the way there.

It's like chess... except when you take someone elses models... it may not happen on a 4+.

Sanct.
ok. cool. we have something we agree about and something we can disagree about.

about the ratio.
why dont you like small squads?

AF

It's not that I don't like small squads.
MSU is certainly a viable way of player due to at least getting more special weapons.

[With respect to bikers]

I run full squads to take advantedge of Combat Squadding and to have the choice of not using it while keeping KP's low.

I am pretty confident with guestimation so i kite more than pedal to the medal towards the opponents, so special weapons are not as important to me vs. non-100% mech opponents.

I value bodybags <---essentially an oxymoron and I just do. I run full squads maybe because I obssive compulsive about it. But it's how I keep important models alive in my fewer squads.

I don't run Vulkan (at less than 2000 to be honest). So I have combat tactics and don't feel like I need to get the specials in to the mix to make extensive use of Vulkan's twin-linked feature.

With less squads there is less traffic jam because my love for somewhat open fields won't come true too often . It keeps things consolidated and I see my order of operations easily and execute them quickly. I have less to worry about in terms of where things are and where I envision them to be. The more units I have the more variables that need to be accounted for when/if I need to think more turns ahead.

Simply: it works for me, and I know it's not very helpful as a closing statement .

true

+1 to what Sanctjud is saying.

My guess is that the OP hasn't been playing for a super long time. This is a game that takes a while to become good at.

I have been playing for 6 years now and it was a whole year before i won a game. it wasn't even with my original marines, it was with my T'au.



Marines are in an interesting position as far as where the learning curve and winning curve meet.

60% or more of people play marines or have played marines at some point. that means EVERYONE, including other marine players, know how to beat marines.

that means that it is easy to learn how to play with them, but everyone of your opponents will know what marines can and cannot do.

that means it can take quite a bit of time to develop your own winning formula of Army Composition and Tactics for Space Marines.

I agree 100%

In addition they are the standard to which weapons meaure their capabilities......suffice to say, yes, +1 to Grey Templar's post.

MEQ's are most wanted in 40K .

Why are Space Marines 90% of GW's entire sales? Becasue they are easy to use, have the largest margins for error, and are neat looking to boot.

abaddon, your logic is flawed about shooting a company at wraithguard.

a battle company is 6 tactical squads 2 dev squads, and 2 assault squads.

Your equipped with swords, shields, and spears.

your opponent presents a shield to you. so what do you do? Wail against it with your shield? No, you punch a hole in it with a spear (devastator squads w/ las/plas/missiles 'n such).

your army is a tool kit. Use each piece to its fullest, rather than trying to bash a square peg into a round hole.

Grey Knight
If im taking anything away from your excellent post is that the " go hard or go home" should be applied to the units in an army not the whole army.
Make each unit to perform a role and make it for just that. If it happens to be pretty good at another role, hey awesome.
But a whole SM army should not be to perform one thing alone. It should fill all the potential gaps and be flexible enough to change tactics for whatever reason after the first turn.
Anyways thank you again for your views i really appreciate them. Its inspired me to want two more thunder fires, cause honestly i love that weapon, and the model. Its never worked quite right for me and ill bet its cause i only ever had one.

yep jay, your right.

your not going to outshoot guard or space wolves, no matter what you do if they go shooty.

your not going to out assault chaos daemons, nids, or orks...

so your only hope is to have an army that can shoot or assault, without skipping a beat in between.

thankyou for pointing out the flaw of my logic to me honorstoodent
AF

Abaddon.
How do you feel about Assault Marines with Chaplains for close combat?

well lets see....
in the blue marines book it looks like they're pretty limited.
the chaplain helps but I think your go to guys are going to be assault terminators even if you have to deep strike them. command squads are good too. blue marines pay alot of points for their close combat hammers. I think they're a better buy than tactical squads bc you cant deprive them of their mobility by blowing up a rhino, bc the jump packs are only 2 extra points a piece, and they're stronger in close combat.

in the red marines book they rock.
AF

Im going solely by the choices offered in the Blue Marine book, I like them. And they arent really assault Marines if they dont have jump packs are they?
How much better are the red Marines anyway? i mean they are still balanced arent they?

Jay-Man McDougall wrote:Grey Knight
If im taking anything away from your excellent post is that the " go hard or go home" should be applied to the units in an army not the whole army.
Make each unit to perform a role and make it for just that. If it happens to be pretty good at another role, hey awesome.
But a whole SM army should not be to perform one thing alone. It should fill all the potential gaps and be flexible enough to change tactics for whatever reason after the first turn.
Anyways thank you again for your views i really appreciate them. Its inspired me to want two more thunder fires, cause honestly i love that weapon, and the model. Its never worked quite right for me and ill bet its cause i only ever had one.

exactly


Chaplains are very good when paired with Assault marines. Assault marines are a Distraction/Assassin unit. They kill one thing, tie up an objective, Draw fire. 1 squad of 10 is generally enough for this purpose. they are NOT a CC unit. they kill things like Tac marines, Fire Warriors Broadsides, Devestators, Havocs, Dark Reapers..... they do NOT kill Terminators, banshees, MCs......

Assault marines are Great when they are scoring a-la BAs.

Jay

no...they arent really assault marines if they dont have jump packs.

blood angels are the 2nd strongest army in the game right now, behind imperial guard. ultramarines are somewhere around 4 or 5. that's my opinion but I think ard boyz tournament results will back me up. I'd say blood angels are pretty unbalanced they have a clear advantage over most armies out there. Space wolves and Guard have strong codices too everyone else is going to have an uphill fight imo.

there are a couple reasons for this...
- sanguinary priests/novitiates. 2-4 of these guys make give feel no pain and furious charge to more or less the whole army. this is huge. even the lowliest blood angel tactical marine is waaayyyy better than an ultramarine when a sanguinary priest is around.

- mobility. between being able to give jump packs to everyone and fast vehicles blood angels not only hit harder, but they get there sooner. its not any more expensive for them to do this than for ultramarines so again ultramarines are outclassed. and they're not even paying anything extra for it. its pretty silly really. also you have descent of angels, for free, which gives you immense flexibility with your reserves and deep strikes. I cant say enough good about this special rule. its really really really good.

-dirty tricks. you get dreadnaughts that can maul a whole squad in one turn, chaplains as elites choices, hell even their vindicators can move 12" and shoot. Its pretty sick. Besides that the Baal predator is an amazing tank. one of the best in the game right now imo.

they're just all around awesome. ultramarines have some things going for them too - vulkan is really good, combat tactics can be pretty obnoxious if you use it right, lysander is the ultimate marine beat stick... but blood angels have access to alot of the things ultramarines get and alot of really strong unique stuff on the side. I'd say the biggest thing is the sanguinary priest/initiate thing. a marine with feel no pain is basically ignoring anything lighter than a plasmagun. If that was all he gave you he'd be worth it, but he gives you furious charge too. It's pretty ridiculous.

Besides that their models are sssssooooo sick
AF

I've used assault marines to great effect in my codex marines list. a 10 man squad, 2 flamers + thunderhammer, led by a librarian w/ null zone + avenger. Follows behind my front line of armor as I advance. they provide psychic defense that really helps me out, and serious anti-infantry firepower when needed. 2 flamers + an ap3 heavy flamer, followed by a charge of assault marines, will annihilate ANY infantry squad... terminators of all kinds included (5 man size anyway).

Sure, they can't take on specialist CC units, but I normally pack a squad of terminators in a raider for occasions like that. I really think the librarian is a better add than the chaplain to this squad, just because of his utility. Hell, i've pulled desperation moves with my librarian that are just bat-gak insane... like surrounding a trygon that pops out of ground while in cover, having it assault my librarian through cover, and force-weaponing the sucker. If your not packing terminators, you can normally drop null zone for might of the ancients. helps alot for dealing with monstrous creatures... basically gives you a relic blade in the squad for a turn.

Librarians > chaplains, and assault squads are quite good if used to go after appropriate targets.

I really love my Assault marines to tell you the truth, especially when my Chaplains are flying with them. I have 2.
I put one in my Vangaurd Squad and the other with the regular Assault marines. Load em up with flamers and open flanks and take objectives, sometimes i even manage to kill a unit with them.
So far my " Sting" squad has only managed to kill 2 whole units before getting blown apart. One was a unit of Devgaunts i took by surprise in a city, they other was a unit of 20 shoota boys again taken by surprise in a city.
Most memorable kill was the Devgaunts, i deep struck. I flamed and and dropped a horseshoe with a run of dice i have yet to see repeated anywhere else. All wounds wounded, no saves made by the gaunts. Plus the real luck came when the nid player realised his gaunts were out of Synapse range and I slaughtered them when they ran.
A turn later i lost them to a pack of gargoyles and a unit of gaunts. I was out flanked and manuevered, plus his shootfex massacred my Tac marines on the objective.
I lost that game but it was sweet imagining those Marines flaming down the gaunts after leaping from a building wall.

Yeah, the GW people need to be told that "Batnipples" are NOT a balancing factor against overpowered rules

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Jay

no...they arent really assault marines if they dont have jump packs.

blood angels are the 2nd strongest army in the game right now, behind imperial guard. ultramarines are somewhere around 4 or 5. that's my opinion but I think ard boyz tournament results will back me up. I'd say blood angels are pretty unbalanced they have a clear advantage over most armies out there. Space wolves and Guard have strong codices too everyone else is going to have an uphill fight imo.

there are a couple reasons for this...
- sanguinary priests/novitiates. 2-4 of these guys make give feel no pain and furious charge to more or less the whole army. this is huge. even the lowliest blood angel tactical marine is waaayyyy better than an ultramarine when a sanguinary priest is around.

- mobility. between being able to give jump packs to everyone and fast vehicles blood angels not only hit harder, but they get there sooner. its not any more expensive for them to do this than for ultramarines so again ultramarines are outclassed. and they're not even paying anything extra for it. its pretty silly really. also you have descent of angels, for free, which gives you immense flexibility with your reserves and deep strikes. I cant say enough good about this special rule. its really really really good.

-dirty tricks. you get dreadnaughts that can maul a whole squad in one turn, chaplains as elites choices, hell even their vindicators can move 12" and shoot. Its pretty sick. Besides that the Baal predator is an amazing tank. one of the best in the game right now imo.

they're just all around awesome. ultramarines have some things going for them too - vulkan is really good, combat tactics can be pretty obnoxious if you use it right, lysander is the ultimate marine beat stick... but blood angels have access to alot of the things ultramarines get and alot of really strong unique stuff on the side. I'd say the biggest thing is the sanguinary priest/initiate thing. a marine with feel no pain is basically ignoring anything lighter than a plasmagun. If that was all he gave you he'd be worth it, but he gives you furious charge too. It's pretty ridiculous.

Besides that their models are sssssooooo sick
AF

DAAAAAMN that is disgustingly unbalanced. I liked the Dante model, but truthfully my skill at painting metal is not so good. And i would not have done it justice.
I almost went for a Blood Angel list when i was cooking the books for my Marines, cause i wanted the Rhino speed. but i decided against it. Cause i didnt want a Red army, in the Yukon where i was playing, there were three colors of marines, Blue, Red and Codex grey unpainted models. So i went for my own chapter and use for the most part straight out of the book Chapter master, Chaplain and the regular HQ choices. The only Specials that caught my eye were Marnelus, Lysander and Dante. I wanted Fists but i couldnt face painting all my chapter yellow, I like the Fists fluff more. The Angels fluff didnt appeal to me, and I really dont like Ultra Marines much. Too damn many of them, in the magazines, websites, whatever. I am literally sick of seeing that blue and gold armor scheme. plus marnelus is a bit of a douche.

I agree. blue marines are everywhere. and they pump them up sooo much in the codex, like everyone wants to be them. barf. but since you have your own colors just tell people you're using codex blood angels. people will be ok with it as long as everything is modelled clearly. at least where I play that's the case.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I agree. blue marines are everywhere. and they pump them up sooo much in the codex, like everyone wants to be them. barf. but since you have your own colors just tell people you're using codex blood angels. people will be ok with it as long as everything is modelled clearly. at least where I play that's the case.
AF

I will likely get the Angels codex, but Im a stickler for being a sport. I will maybe play the Angels codex once or twice. But Ill use the blue Marines codex, those sound cool but kinda broken. I mean id forgo being able to field heavies and take fewer terminators for those abilities. To keep things balanced.
And cause I dont used Predators, and Landraiders Lol
Plus I only bought Black Reach for the 5 Termies and the Dread, I was gonna use them as Sgts. For my Tactical squads. Moot now Lol