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As we all know, Marine chapters are interfered with by external forces: We are told that the Iron Hands and some other chapters, for example, have a close relationship with the Adeptus Mechanicus, with one in the 5e codex even going so far as to replace most of their bodies with augmentations and are viewed with suspicion by other Chapters.

What I want to know is if there are any chapters (aside from the Grey Knights, who I don't count so much... will explain in a sec) that are influenced heavily by the Ecclesiarchy, perhaps even going so far as to consider the Emperor a deity (which most chapters don't... do the Grey Knights?).

Grey Knights are a militant-arm of the Inquisition and thus aren't exactly Ecclesiastical, their secret nature also means that they don't openly do the works of the Ecclesiarchy... I was just wondering if the Es ever mess with Space Marines?

Please, oh please, don't mention SoB ;P

Though I have to say Space Marines in similar power armour (lose the bewbs) would be kickass.

The idea of an SM chapter that works on the beck on call of the Ecclesiarchy is, obviously, impossible due to the restrictions on the Ecclesiarchy forces after the Vandire Rebellion.

However, each SM chapter is by and large independant from one another in their views of the Emperor and practice of religeon or lack thereof. It is entirely possible that an SM chapter that recruits from a world influenced by the Ecclesiarchy may, over time, become influenced by the ideas and upbringings of the new recruits. Over time it could very well come to influence many aspects of the SM chapters dogma (depending on the level of resistance or acceptance by the Chapters chaplains). It is easy then to imagine that the chapter, although not answering to the ecclesiarchy, may see fit to keep in contact with some of their brothers in spirit, perhaps even coming to their defence when asked of.

There is no fluff to support that such a relationship is common, or even exists at all, but the galaxy is a big place and the idea of an SM with close ties to the Ecclesiarchy is not as far fetched as one might think.

Ecclesiarchy is cult of imperium.

SpaceMarine(Adeptus Astartes) is also cult.
Some space marine loves to have friendship with Machine Cult.Because they were exist even before Heresy. They fight togather long time.

But Ecclesiarchy,I think most Space Marine regard it is not what emperor wanted.

But yeah as Emperors Faithful says,
galaxy is a big place and the idea of an SM with close ties to the Ecclesiarchy is not as far fetched as one might think.

I would imagine the closest thing to an Ecclesiarchy chapter would be the Black Templars, seeing as they are one of the most fervent chapters in the Imperium. However I wouldn't say they are owned or commanded by the Ecclesiarchy, just like the Iron Hands they are influenced, but not commanded, by said organizations.

The way I imagine Crusaders such as the Black Templars would be influenced in their fervour is not by the divinity of the Emperor but rather an obsession with completing his dream and a return to the Great Crusade: The BTs are probably the only chapter that can be said to be continuing the legacy of the time before the Horus Heresy...

True enough, however you constantly see terms like faith being thrown around when it comes to them, they are in fact religious zealots that allow their faith to carry them through the crucible of battle. I think it has alot less to do with the idea of completing a crusade and returning to secular truth like in days of old. The only reason secular truth was preached is because the Emperor believed ignorance of the things that go bumb in the night would protect mankind. The Heresy proved that 'Angels' and 'Demons' were very real and so was divinty, be you Ork, Eldar, or HUman. Thus the Black Templars take their strength from faith both in their Primarch and the Emperor. Remember the Black Templars were the more 'unhinged' members of the Imperial Fists, while all the level headed ones stayed with the legions and the new bloods went to the Crimson fists.

The Sisters of Battle would fulfill this purpose, even if they themselves are not Astartes. They are the power-armored fist of the Ecclesiarchy.

Melissia wrote:The Sisters of Battle would fulfill this purpose, even if they themselves are not Astartes. They are the power-armored fist of the Ecclesiarchy.

QFT, there's no real need for Ecclesiarchy marines, besides as aforemention Astartes are far too independant to be at the beck and call of the Ecclesiarchy. Which isn't to say that a chapter like the Black Templars wouldn't go out of their way to defend an Imperial shrine, just like the Iron Hands would make time to acquire Tech from a space hulk or some such mechanicus related task.

Oh for the love of...

Melissia - the OP specifically told you that he was not interested in the SoBs...


On topic. It's entirely possible for a Chapter of Marines to be legit followers of the Imperial Cult, and to be friendly to the Ecclesiarchy. The Decree Passive forbids the Ecclesiarchy commanding such a Chapter to do anything, and the Inquisition would likely keep an eye on such a Chapter, but it's very much possible.

However, things would not be exactly like a Chapter having ties to the Mechanicus.

Your Chapter's Chaplains could not be trained by or members of the Ecclesiarchy (Unlike techmarines, who are full members of the cult mechanicus) - that would be illegal.

I believe that the Grey Knights DO view the Emperor as a god, unlike most Marines, incidentally.

Azezel wrote:Melissia - the OP specifically told you that he was not interested in the SoBs...

Yeah, and?

It's still the truth. The Ecclesiarchy doesn't NEED to rely on Marines. They have their own personal, unquestionably loyal battle force in the Sisters. They do not violate the Decree Passive, and they are equipped and transported with the Ecclesiarchy's coin.

Let no voice ever say Melissia isn't devout

Meh. That's not to say Marines couldn't worship the Emperor or whatever, but they can't really serve the Ecclesiarchy the way the Sisters do. They wouldn't be "Ecclesiastical Marines", they'd just be Marines who buy into the Imperial Cult.

The Sisters' arms and armor are all bought by the Ecclesiarchy. Their transport between systems is procured by the Ecclesiarchy (or Inquisition if ever that group calls upon them). They follow Emperor with body, mind, and soul, and are loyal to the God-Emperor of Mankind first and foremost, but the Ecclesiarch is the Emperor's voice to mankind and therefor the Sisters are loyal to the Ecclesiarchy (to the extent that the Ecclesiarchy remains pure-- corruption cannot be abided no matter its source). They ARE the army of the Ecclesiarchy. No Marines could ever replace them with current fluff (and it would be stupid for GW to change it IMO).

I think most Astartes see worshipping the Emperor as a god as what got them into trouble in the first place in the Horus Heresy. Space Marines might be the last people left in the Galaxy that remember the Emperor wanted more than just the separation of church and state he won't no religon at all.

Arguably he only wanted that during the Horus Heresy. Given that the founders of the Sisters of Battle met with the Emperor and were granted visions by him (Effectively him giving them his blessings, literally and metaphorically), it could be he's changed his mind in the 10k years since the Heresy, and views the church as the best way to keep humanity from falling to chaos now that the Great Crusade has failed.

Melissia wrote:The Sisters of Battle would fulfill this purpose, even if they themselves are not Astartes. They are the power-armored fist of the Ecclesiarchy.

You've gone and completely misinterpreted my premise: You're looking at this from the perspective of the Ecclesiarchy creating a SM Chapter to do their bidding... that's not what I'm talking about. I used the example of the Iron Hands or chapters like that which have simply grown close to the Adeptus Mechanicus (or in my case, the Ecclesiarchy) as a result of their individual culture: Zealous and faithful marines recruited from a holy world, for example, might simply align themselves to the Ecclesiarchy. If it came to the Ecclesiarchy having to nudge them a little with some extra influence... I doubt they'd turn down an offer of alliance from Space Marines, SoB or no SoB...

Hope that clears it up for you.

Melissia wrote:

Azezel wrote:Melissia - the OP specifically told you that he was not interested in the SoBs...

Yeah, and?

It's still the truth. The Ecclesiarchy doesn't NEED to rely on Marines. They have their own personal, unquestionably loyal battle force in the Sisters. They do not violate the Decree Passive, and they are equipped and transported with the Ecclesiarchy's coin.

As I've said, they're not creating Marines as a personal force, merely allowing them into "the camp" so to speak.

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the Word Bearers yet. Back in the day, Lorgar was told to STOP worshiping the Emperor as a god. Had events been different surrounding the Heresy, and the Word Bearers stayed loyalist, they and the Ecclesiarchy would probably be buddy-buddy.

Wonder if they'd even need the sisters then...

Melissia wrote:Arguably he only wanted that during the Horus Heresy. Given that the founders of the Sisters of Battle met with the Emperor and were granted visions by him (Effectively him giving them his blessings, literally and metaphorically), it could be he's changed his mind in the 10k years since the Heresy, and views the church as the best way to keep humanity from falling to chaos now that the Great Crusade has failed.

Yes, but that conversation is not proof of anything. She simply could have made it up or had a religon induced hallucination etc. etc. People have told me in real life that God has spoken to them. That's fine and Dandy for them but I don't consider proof of God's existance.
It's quite possible that the Emperor is dead and has been for 10,000 years.


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Commander Endova wrote:I'm surprised that no one has brought up the Word Bearers yet. Back in the day, Lorgar was told to STOP worshiping the Emperor as a god. Had events been different surrounding the Heresy, and the Word Bearers stayed loyalist, they and the Ecclesiarchy would probably be buddy-buddy.

Wonder if they'd even need the sisters then...

If the Word Bearers had stayed loyal and there'd been no grand rebellion The Imperial Truth's hard line atheism would still be law and there would be no Imperial Cult.

Henners91 wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Sisters of Battle would fulfill this purpose, even if they themselves are not Astartes. They are the power-armored fist of the Ecclesiarchy.

You've gone and completely misinterpreted my premise: You're looking at this from the perspective of the Ecclesiarchy creating a SM Chapter to do their bidding... that's not what I'm talking about. I used the example of the Iron Hands or chapters like that which have simply grown close to the Adeptus Mechanicus (or in my case, the Ecclesiarchy) as a result of their individual culture: Zealous and faithful marines recruited from a holy world, for example, might simply align themselves to the Ecclesiarchy. If it came to the Ecclesiarchy having to nudge them a little with some extra influence... I doubt they'd turn down an offer of alliance from Space Marines, SoB or no SoB...

Hope that clears it up for you.

As I have said, it is entirely possible for this to occur.
The Iron Hands are not the personal army of the Adeptus Mechanicus, that role belongs to the Skitarii, but they do work closely with them.
These 'Ecclesiastical Marines' are not the personal army of the Ecclesiarchy, that role belongs to the SoB, but they can work closely with them.

I used the example of the Iron Hands or chapters like that which have simply grown close to the Adeptus Mechanicus (or in my case, the Ecclesiarchy) as a result of their individual culture: Zealous and faithful marines recruited from a holy world, for example, might simply align themselves to the Ecclesiarchy.

Exactly. Although it has to be admitted that, other than oaths and pledges ot aid on another and uphold the Emperors creed ect ect, there could be no official 'integration' of the SM chapter.




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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

If the Word Bearers had stayed loyal and there'd been no grand rebellion The Imperial Truth's hard line atheism would still be law and there would be no Imperial Cult.

Debatable, we have no idea exactly how the Great Crusade would have panned out if not for the Horus Heresy. Religion would definitely have had a part in it (it would simply be impossbile to enforce atheism throughout all human cultures), but it may very well not have taken the form it had with the Emperor at the centre.

There's 1000 chapters. I'm sure one of them goes to church.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's 1000 chapters. I'm sure one of them goes to church.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, but that conversation is not proof of anything. She simply could have made it up or had a religon induced hallucination etc. etc.

Nope, it's pretty clear from the fluff that she received visions from the Emperor Himself.

If you want to claim "oh, your faction's fluff never happened" then I 'll just go ahead and say every single legion betrayed the Emperor in the Horus Heresy-- after all, all the loyalists could just be lying about it, not like anyone who is alive "today" (in the sense of M.41) actually knows the real truth now do they? So hey, the real reason there aren't any ecclesiarchal chapters is because they're all really traitorous pricks. And hey, you don't have any proof that the Emperor opposed religion now, because that was fluff from the horus heresy too, and for all we know that was a lie, too! Ten thousand years is more than enough time to make humans-- with our lifespan of ~60-90 years-- believe in a lie, after all, now isn't it?

That argument is complete crap, and I ain't buyin' it.

Melissia, it doesn't say as much. In fact it says nothing. It specifically says 'No one knows what occured in that room' ect. It's boorish to claim that they were given visions as cold hard facts. It's alluded to maybe, but not explicitly stated. Please don't pretend it does.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, but that conversation is not proof of anything. She simply could have made it up or had a religon induced hallucination etc. etc.

Nope, it's pretty clear from the fluff that she received visions from the Emperor Himself.

If you want to claim "oh, your faction's fluff never happened" then I 'll just go ahead and say every single legion betrayed the Emperor in the Horus Heresy-- after all, all the loyalists could just be lying about it, not like anyone who is alive "today" (in the sense of M.41) actually knows the real truth now do they? So hey, the real reason there aren't any ecclesiarchal chapters is because they're all really traitorous pricks. And hey, you don't have any proof that the Emperor opposed religion now, because that was fluff from the horus heresy too, and for all we know that was a lie, too! Ten thousand years is more than enough time to make humans-- with our lifespan of ~60-90 years-- believe in a lie, after all, now isn't it?

That argument is complete crap, and I ain't buyin' it.

Ya I figure you might react like that but its not really the same thing. This was one incident, involving one person with no witnesses with the fate of the entire legitimacey of her people on the line.
It's not even a bad thing. It makes the Sisters more interesting not less. The entire order may be based on lie or it may not be. I think it was intended to be ironic that we take what Dominica claims on faith.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Melissia, it doesn't say as much. In fact it says nothing. It specifically says 'No one knows what occured in that room' ect. It's boorish to claim that they were given visions as cold hard facts. It's alluded to maybe, but not explicitly stated. Please don't pretend it does.

In a White Dwarf, I believe, it was stated that the vision she received from the Emperor is what the banners and names of the major Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas were based off of.

KamikazeCanuck: So? Ten thousand years is a long time to get a society of loosely connected humans to believe a lie. Nobody alive in M.41 would know truth or lie, Marine or otherwise, save for possibly the Eldar and the Chaos Gods. And are you going to believe an Eldar, who would gladly sacrifice millions of humans to save a few Eldar lives? And the Ruinous Powers are always twisting things to obtain power and corrupt the world, so they aren't reliable either.

Große Lüge!

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Melissia, it doesn't say as much. In fact it says nothing. It specifically says 'No one knows what occured in that room' ect. It's boorish to claim that they were given visions as cold hard facts. It's alluded to maybe, but not explicitly stated. Please don't pretend it does.

In a White Dwarf, I believe, it was stated that the vision she received from the Emperor is what the banners and names of the major Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas were based off of.

White Dwarf says a lot of things.
Seriously though, even you have to admit that the Emperor telling her what the Orders would be called makes little sense. What does He care for names and banners? It is the purpose that is important. My point stands, there is no solid evidence that she coversed (mentally or physically) with the Emperor, in that room, nor is there evidence of exactly what was said. It is entirely possible that, seeing the throne for herself, she was finnaly swayed by the Custodes to act against Vandire.

KamikazeCanuck: So? Ten thousand years is a long time to get a society of loosely connected humans to believe a lie. Nobody alive in M.41 would know truth or lie, Marine or otherwise, save for possibly the Eldar and the Chaos Gods. And are you going to believe an Eldar, who would gladly sacrifice millions of humans to save a few Eldar lives? And the Ruinous Powers are always twisting things to obtain power and corrupt the world, so they aren't reliable either.

You've had your fun Melissia. This is bordering the realms of trolldom.

Große Lüge!

Er um...what?

Emperors Faithful wrote:White Dwarf says a lot of things.
[snip]
Seriously though, even you have to admit that the Emperor telling her what the Orders would be called makes little sense.
[snip]
You've had your fun Melissia. This is bordering the realms of trolldom.
[snip]
Er um...what?

1: Yes, and being a product produced by Games Workshop, these are generally at least somewhat canon.

2: IIRC, the orders were named after objects within the vision, and heraldry based off of that as well. Not the vision telling her what the orders were to be called. The latter is absurd, while the former is simply someone using the symbolism they know.

3: No, I'm being quite serious-- this is a debate tactic called "logical extreme": take an extreme or preposterous position and use your opponent's logic to justify it, thereby bringing the validity of the logic behind their hypothesis into question.

4: I said Große Lüge!
(before you say anything, the last statement is only partially serious, but it is an example of such happening in the real world)

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Melissia, it doesn't say as much. In fact it says nothing. It specifically says 'No one knows what occured in that room' ect. It's boorish to claim that they were given visions as cold hard facts. It's alluded to maybe, but not explicitly stated. Please don't pretend it does.

In a White Dwarf, I believe, it was stated that the vision she received from the Emperor is what the banners and names of the major Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas were based off of.

That's not further proof. It's still that Joan of Arc "God told me" type of empirical evidence.

KamikazeCanuck: So? Ten thousand years is a long time to get a society of loosely connected humans to believe a lie. Nobody alive in M.41 would know truth or lie, Marine or otherwise, save for possibly the Eldar and the Chaos Gods. And are you going to believe an Eldar, who would gladly sacrifice millions of humans to save a few Eldar lives? And the Ruinous Powers are always twisting things to obtain power and corrupt the world, so they aren't reliable either.

So? Lets say it is. That certainly doesn't help the sisters in anyway

Große Lüge!

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Once again. Not attacking the Sisters. Look at it from Dominca's perpective. She was on the verge of going down in history as The right hand of the 2nd Horus Lupercal. Her beloved Daughters of the Emperor would be riviled and used as a watchword by all Imperials for all time. That's a lot of pressure to say God spoke to her! Either way it doesn't change who the Sisters are now.

Yes, and the Horus Heresy could have just all been made up by the traitorous Marine legions who weren't accepted by Chaos, and who were trying to make themselves not look like the bad guys. That's a pretty big hit to one's pride, to betray one's "father" and nearly kill him for power, but to have that power reject you.

Your logic is flawed.

Melissia wrote:Your logic is flawed.

And yours is off-topic.

Let's drop the Sisters discussion and get it back to the topic at hand, shall we?

-Post removed. Which part of 'drop it' was unclear?-