Deff Roller

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**Admiral-Badruck**

The Deff roller sticks out a good inch and a half from the hull how are people playing this does the tank shock happen when the hull hits or the Deff roller hits..
Does one disembark from the front or the deff roller or from the front of the hull...

when someone is shooting cant they hit the Battle wagon if all they can see is the deff Roller... Or if it all that is in Range is the Deff roller....

I am planing one using Lotz of Deff Rollaz in the next tournament but I do no know what people are going to play them as... any help would be great...

if there is an old thread about this please point me in the right direction...

**Gorkamorka**

This has been debated to death in the past, just so you know.

RAW the rolla is not part of the hull, and is a "decorative element" similar to a 'dozer blade.
You ignore it for LOS, ignore it for distance measurements, can deploy with it outside your deployment zone, etc.
Tank shocks and Rams require only physical contact between the involved models, so the rolla impacting works fine for them. You measure disembarking from the hull, so the rolla blocks a sizable area for that purpose.

Many players are uncomfortable with this however, and formulate a house rule to handle the rolla specifically. The most common one is to simply count it as part of the hull for all purposes.
The INAT faq clarified that they are not part of the hull and, bewilderingly, ruled that models may disembark on top of the rolla and/or move over it (despite it being a part of an impassible model).
Other players simply model the stock rolla in a raised position to bypass any issues.

**schadenfreude**

I'm thinking of removing the 2 front wheels and replacing them with a steamroller.

The deffrolla would then be under the battlewagon thus ending any confusion.

**marv335**

I treat it as part of the hull for all respects.
Anything else just seems really abusive to me.

**Shake Zoola**

Mine arent glued on so they can be removed when a problem arises...they will hold for play purposes...I have always played them as a decorative element as playing them as part of the hull seems more abusive to me, i could disembark 2 inches farther forward...

So I would say just dont glue them on...that tends to solve pretty much all the problems Ive encountered...

**QuietOrkmi**

I like the Idea of Converting the front wheels into stream rollers to avoid arguments...

**augustus5**

Saying the deff rolla is not part of the hull seems just as silly as saying the wings of a valk are not part of it's hull. It also creates many problems in the game. It would be nice for GW to come out and answer this as it has been a point of contention for some time now and affects two very popular models from two popular ranges.

**ChrisCP**

augustus5 wrote:Saying the deff rolla is not part of the hull seems just as silly as saying the wings of a valk are not part of it's hull. It also creates many problems in the game. It would be nice for GW to come out and answer this as it has been a point of contention for some time now and affects two very popular models from two popular ranges.

THe deffrolla serves the same purpose as a Ramm, and one sees people counting that as hull alllllllll the time even though RAW it's not.
*Shrug*
Soo much stuff i just ask people before one plays.

**Sliggoth**

For the deff rolla you will really want to check with the TO on what his call will be. The rolla is treated very differently in many places, and the various rulings make the rolla play quite differently.

This is one of the INAT rulings that is...awkward. There is a rule for models not being able to be placed on the tabletop because the terrain wont allow the model to stand up. (wobbly model syndrome pg13) But the rule is for TERRAIN. Nothing in the rules allows us to place a model physically on top of another model, in fact its one of the core rules that helps keep infantry from riding around on top of tanks.

While it is pure RAW that the rolla isnt hull, it probably breaks the game the least to treat the rolla as hull. Yes this is a definite rule change but it at least does seem to solve all of the rolla problems with only breaking one rule about the rolla itself.

But see what your local TO(s) say, because this is one area where it seems everyone has a different idea. You may well have to develop different tactics for each tournement in which you play.

Sliggoth

**Dashofpepper**

Counting it as hull is the lesser of two evils, but still the wrong answer.

What I do is simply raise them. The deffrolla is in a movable position - it rotates up and sits comfortably on top of the battlewagon. For display purposes they lay on the table, but when they go on the table, I raise them. If you wanted to, you can take the rolla off and drop it into the back of the battlewagon - your wargear must be WYSIWYG, but there's no rule denoting where gear is.

I haven't done any batreps for tournaments in some time or I'd drop in a picture of it.

But yeah, just raise the deffrolla.

**Sliggoth**

Raising the rolla for the entire game should work.

But rebuilding the kit, that does raise the question of modelling for advantage. If the rolla is sitting in the back of the battle wagon there will be some tournements where the ork player will be down checked for building the model in such a way to create an advantage for the ork player ie being able to assault from the front of the battle wagon since the rolla isnt in the way.

There is a model kit produced by GW, and while its perfectly possible to convert the kit in ways that make the rolla simpler to use....its also quite possible that some people will see that as changing the model to give the ork player an advantage. Simply building the rolla in the raised position should satisfy most people, since its a position possible from the unconverted kit. But placing the rolla in other interesting places at least has the possibility of the issue being raised.

Its part of a problem that GW hasnt addressed, the problem raised by various rams, shields and other protrusions from various vehicles.

Sliggoth

**Lost Boyz**

I make mine part of the front wheel, and will do so in the future to avoid a debate. I always discuss it before the game, and I prefer to play it as 'all hull'. If not, then all the weird 'raised' rollas, how do i deploy, what/where can you assault etc etc questions mount up and it gets unenjoyable. The one with my Burnas in it has the 'front wheel' Rolla - and that is the one that really matters (hull-wise) !!

**Admiral-Badruck**

TBH I like the RAW Best as it seem the one that will get me in to the most trouble... and give me the most advantage... I will contact the TO and see what he is going to rule.. Before I finish my list... you have all been a great help

**Alpharius**

"Raising" them works best, I'd guess.

It is rather odd, and unsettling, watching people fire template weapons from them - so, easily avoided if they can move out of the way!

**Vanhammer_Bard**

what disadvantages/unfairness is there from having them part of the hull?

a far as i can see there isnt any, you dont get extra movement or anything else.

i'd only see a problem if you deploy as if its not part of the hull and then measured aferwards that it is.

**nosferatu1001**

As part of the hull you are then allowed to disembark models from it, otherwise you essentially couldnt dismebark a ful squad out the front as some would rest on the deff rolla - a strict no no.

**triplare**

My gaming group goes by "Any upgrade that alters the 'footprint' of a vehicle is counted as part of the hull in all respects." Doing it this way stops issues with hull measurements (like tank shock, disembarking, assaulting the vehicle, LoS and measuring to the hull, etc.). It's not RAW...but it doesn't have to be.

**warboss**

Vanhammer_Bard wrote:what disadvantages/unfairness is there from having them part of the hull?

a far as i can see there isnt any, you dont get extra movement or anything else.

i'd only see a problem if you deploy as if its not part of the hull and then measured aferwards that it is.

as stated above, it's open topped so extending the "hull" by adding a deffrolla increases the size of the area you can disembark (and therefore charge) from. somehow when the rolla connects with the enemy they take 1d6 hits (or whatever the correct number is) but orks can jump from the cabin in back and jump off of it without a problem like lumberjack log rollers?? lol.

also, some people were making huge canned vegetable sized deffrollas (which is totally fluffwise appropriate for an ork conversion) that gave them a distinct advantage in game, enough to the point that people began considering it modelling for advantage. by adding 2-3 inches to the front of the vehicle and deploying far up front sideways during a game in which you're going first, you can simply pivot the truck and gain an additional 6"+ inches of movement. you can still do this without the deffrolla but it certainly exaggerates the problem.

not counting it as hull solves most of these problems without making more. i hadn't ever seen/thought of the rollers as front wheels conversion; i definitely think that's the most elegant way of modelling it!