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Are Unit Champions usually work it to take? I look at my Skink blocks and the Champion costs more than twice the points of a normal Skink, for only +1 attack, and since he can be picked out and killed, I don't really see him surviving past the first round of the combat.

Aduro wrote:Are Unit Champions usually work it to take? I look at my Skink blocks and the Champion costs more than twice the points of a normal Skink, for only +1 attack, and since he can be picked out and killed, I don't really see him surviving past the first round of the combat.

There could be certain situations where they're good.

A) Dragon charges your skinks. Your champion challenges him to a duel. All the Lord and Dragon's attacks only kill 1 puny champion. If you have more than 1 rank, you don't care how horribly he lost the challenge by because you have more ranks than the enemy. A skink squad with 1 member 12" away from Slann gets Ld9 with cold blood and maybe BSB re-roll. That little champion wasted an entire turn of combat for an expensive dragonlord. Same applies to saurus warriors or most units.

B) If you buff the unit with something like Okkam's Razor and challenge an enemy hero. The S6-S7 champ has something of a chance of either wounding or killing the enemy. You get an extra +50 victory points for a champ killing a character in a challenge, in addition to the points gained for killing the character. And 100 more if it's their general. Can't do that if you never buy unit champions.

It depends on the benefits and situations. There are some instances a Unit Champion is a "Woo, glad I have one / Dammit, wish I had one." There's others where you wind up going "Why did I buy them instead of 1 / 2 / 3 other troops?"

For Skink, I'm seeing pretty much what TheBloodGod said. Challenge-taking to nerf an individual monster character. The catch being that such charges are much less likely now, what with it usually being just Charge + Wounds for a Monstrous Creature (Possibly Rank or Flank too) vs Static 4 and Stubborn.

Another important factor involves the model cost versus that extra stat. A fine example is that of the Chaos Knight. What is the point on spending 20pts to get an extra attack? Instead you could spend an additional 20pts and get get another model (with 2 more attacks and the horse's). Now you may have an opportunity to kill an enemy character in a challenge, but I don't see it worth the points.

Now a counter-argument to that is an Ogre Champion. If you're going for a MSU style list that could help spread the wounds around (since you have to randomize the wounds).

I think some more examples from a variety of lists would help.

barlio wrote:Another important factor involves the model cost versus that extra stat. A fine example is that of the Chaos Knight. What is the point on spending 20pts to get an extra attack? Instead you could spend an additional 20pts and get get another model (with 2 more attacks and the horse's). Now you may have an opportunity to kill an enemy character in a challenge, but I don't see it worth the points.

Now a counter-argument to that is an Ogre Champion. If you're going for a MSU style list that could help spread the wounds around (since you have to randomize the wounds).

I think some more examples from a variety of lists would help.

Edit: Misread. "Additional 20 points" meaning spend 41 points to get another chaos knight. Not 20 points.

Drawbacks to adding another knight.

More enemies in base contact now = more attacks received.

If you add a 2nd rank by buying more knights, bolt thrower hits twice as many models.

Bonuses, maybe more damage.

Then again, a Chaos Knight champ might be in the category of things which should be challenging and killing characters for bonus victory points. They can get quite a few attacks at high strength.

Less knights might mean panic tests earlier. Although those have never been a problem with heavy cav for me.

Chaos are pretty good at challenges, from what I've heard. Especially when you make a Lord that is immune to Killing blow, and has 6 S6 attacks, plus 1 S5 attack from the juggernaut. Oh, and the S6 attacks have killing blow.

For lizardmen the only reason i ever take champions is to protect heros from challenges from lords

Empire: I always take Champions in my Swordsmen, Greatsword, and Knight units. I don't necessarily need that extra attack (well maybe on knights), but their role is to take it in the heiney (sp) when a Chaos Lord comes a knocking. I'm kind of considering upgrading my Handgunners to having Marksmen, but that's something I need to playtest. Generally characters aren't charging my shooty units, but it could happen.

Not allways just an extra attack.

Night runner champ gets extra stats, plus a 6+ ward.

Gutter runners champ gets a 5+ ward, extra attack and some nice options.

Svermin champ gets access to upgrades.

Rogre champ gets WS, A, and more upgraded.




Seems alot of skaven unit champs get tons more than most armies.
And for the small prices, it tends to be worth it IMO.
Only problem being, they can start throwing out challenges to protect characters.

Orcs still get the biggest / best Unit Champion upgrade, but they aren't as big as last edition (Wherein BOrc Champions were WS5 S5 beasts). Orc Boyz, Arrer Boyz, Savage Orc Boyz, and (Savage) Boar Boyz are all +1 WS and +1S in addition to the +1 Attack, meaning for the first three often at least +1 to wound (in addition to -1 to saves) and possibly +1 to hit as well. For the cavalry, same bonus but not quite as good (Need Spears + Charge as opposed to just surviving to strike).

As said, some armies gain a lot more. For some, the only advantage is someone to take a challenge for a character (See: Prevent an Empire Swordsman from blocking Grimgor / Archaon and sucking away a massive advantage) and the chance at getting (+25? +50?) VP for an Underdog Kill. For others, it is pretty much akin to buying a hero-lite for the unit or means access to some very good magic items (See: Dark Elves carrying a Ring of Hotek on a Cold One Champion).

For Lizardmen Skink Champions, I think the former is pretty much your only real advantage. However, since Skink Chiefs are rarely taken in R&F units, it's more to do the whole "Grimgor = Nerfed: thing than to avoid it.

Some armies have Champions with access to Magic Items. I think these are great chances to pick up that One Use Only item that you don't want to put on a character. If I played Dark Elves I would probably put the KB lance on the Champion. The new common items in the BRB are going to be great for champs. I think the anti-warmachine Talisman is a great buy for unit champs.

Depends on the army.

In my experience the unit champion is there to take a challenge a character model doesn't want to take. For instance, if a combat hero challenges my unit with my BSB, I'll feed them the unit champion instead.

Champions are useful for keeping anvil units steadfast longer. Choppy lord going to kill a bunch of guys? Send in the chump. Unless you are lucky and have an army whose champions are mini heroes (like dark elf tower masters with crimson death or hags with rune of khaine or manbane), you should really only buy them if they are cheap, or you need to protect that unit from something. Small units of bowmen don't need it, but big blocks of static res do. Some expensive champs are worth it sometimes if it means protecting a BSB or general from a challenge (or to declare one to protect your character), but if those characters aren't present, they are usually too expensive.

My WoC love champs because they keep Sorcerers from getting themselves into stupid challenges via their Eye of the Gods rule. The FAQ says that all models capable of issuing a challenge, must do so(even if they don't have the EotG rule).

For Beastmen:

Gouge-Horns in Bestigor units can take any of the Gifts of Chaos (bonus attacks or bonus I, to name a couple of benefits).
Bloodkine in Minotaur units can take 25 points of Magic Armor, Magic Weapons, Talismans, and/or Enchanted Items. Some of the new items in the BRB are cheap and can really pack a punch (i.e., Ironcurse Icon [5pts] to protect your lightly armored Minos from the odd bolt-thrower bolt).
Across the Army spectrum there are quite a few unit upgrades that are "characters" like Beastmen's Ungrol Four-horn or Ghorros Warhoof that have some good stats and helpful special rules.

Blackened Plate may be a good choice for a Bloodkine, or the Stone of Spite.