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So I have a couple of the ooold Hive Tyrants from back when I started playing. They're not all that tall, compared to the new ones. Gaunts and such would provide cover for them, with RAW.

What's the general thought on this. It's not like I'm converting the models to get an advantage; GW made them that way. Should I consider them taller because the new ones are? Should I limit myself to only 1 Tyrant, as that's all I own for the taller (last edition) version?

Where models have changed significantly from their original size (The Eldar Avatar, or Chaos Obliterators, for example), some players may have an issue with playing the old model as is.

Where the difference is less significant (pretty much every other model, for example) the vast majority of players won't really care, from my experience.

You may get some occasional grumbling... but if you want to use the models you have rather than buying new ones, that's entirely up to you.

Heh, totally forgot about the old Obliterators.
Not sure I've seen the old Avatar, though.

Anyway, thanks for the insight.

By the rules, You are using a citadel miniature glued to its base, correct? Then it is not illegal. Like Insaniak said, some may grumble about it but honestly in the current book you can get a 4+ cover save by adding a tyrant guard and walking behind gaunts. I wouldn't complain about it.

I don't think most people would have a problem because it is an official GW model.

If they do have a problem, you might ask them to provide you with a current, based, Citadel miniature of the appropriate model to use.

Seriously, you have a correct model from the Citadel range. You would be within your rights to convert any model to have a higher or lower profile.

Offer them some with their whine.

Da Butcha wrote:If they do have a problem, you might ask them to provide you with a current, based, Citadel miniature of the appropriate model to use.

You could do that, but it wouldn't particularly help the situation.


In a game that has mechanics that revolve quite significantly around the physical dimensions of the models being used, it's not actually all that unreasonable for someone to object to you using an out-of-date model that is a different size to the one that the rules are currently written for.

People objecting to rules issues that you personally find insignificant aren't always (or in my experience, even often) doing so out of a genuine intention to be difficult. It's usually just down to having a different opinion on how seriously to take the game.

So if someone objects to you using an older, smaller model, a more mature response would be to discuss the situation and determine just what their objection is, and if necessary either come up with a work-around that keeps you both happy, or move on and find someone else to play.

They can object when they give you the money to buy the new model, players shouldnt be penalized for buying models in earlier editions.

You do have to watch out for people who buy people who buy older edition stuff for that reason though lol.

I wouldn't object as long as that tyrant is on a 40mm square base. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I use the old Avatar when I wanna be an @-hole as only people that have been around even notice it's on the table.

i've modelled my IG heavy weapon teams from 3rd edition on the newer 60mm bases (techically i just painted/flocked the bases and put the old figs on top of them) to simply avoid any questions. i'm doing the same with my old SM bikes on fantasy cavalry bases (what they used to come with) but not everyone is interested in redoing parts of old models in armies they consider done hobby wise. the rules only say to use genuine citadel/gw models with the bases they came with. until GW says in 6th edition 40k that only the current models are legal, they're 100% RAW legal.

LAWL, I love the Avatar when he was only 'just' taller than a Space Marine...with his spear and all

Use whatever base they came with and whatever GW model you have...(with respect to the topic on hand).
I still see speeders with hex bases...

You could always just take the old model and put it on an appropriately sized base, and put some terrain on the base so it raises the model up to the proper current size.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem playing with someone who uses old models, so long as they aren't taking advantage of huge advantages like taking 4+ cover saves on their MC cause its as small as their infantry. I would simply tell your opponent that you want to use the old model, and that you won't take any cover saves that shouldn't actually be there. Etc.

Basically, this game is for fun... and you would ruin everyone else's by pulling something like that. Furthermore, it would probably be up to you and your opponent to decide what to do. But all that is gonna happen is you have fewer people who want to play games with you... and you get the satisfaction of tainted victories.

Yeah its all good and fun until someone gets the old school landraider that is about the size of a rhino. Or the "low rider" orc trucks that can get full cover behind a mob of 30 boys.

Lt Lathrop wrote:You could always just take the old model and put it on an appropriately sized base, and put some terrain on the base so it raises the model up to the proper current size.

That's more modelling for advantage than using the model as it is!

GW have said that you can use any edition nids (specifically, in this case, representing the evolving nature of the beast) but you don't have to give your opponent any concessions.

Thaylen wrote:Yeah its all good and fun until someone gets the old school landraider that is about the size of a rhino. Or the "low rider" orc trucks that can get full cover behind a mob of 30 boys.

This. Dead on.

I will play against them, but if the opponent starts making wonky claims, then I will gripe.

I like using some of the old-school minis. Some just have a bit of fun character to them. I did notice that the Rhino has grown in size, but I had no idea the Land Raider was *that* small. Anyone have a side-by-side comparison picture?

Thaylen wrote:Yeah its all good and fun until someone gets the old school landraider that is about the size of a rhino. Or the "low rider" orc trucks that can get full cover behind a mob of 30 boys.

Speaking from experience, the "Low Rider" ork trukks are more modeling for disadvantage, they barely grant cover to my Stormboyz when they should be blocking LOS. Too bad I don't have enough money for some real Trukks....

Thaylen wrote:Yeah its all good and fun until someone gets the old school landraider that is about the size of a rhino. Or the "low rider" orc trucks that can get full cover behind a mob of 30 boys.

A good way stop this crap is to say "fine, we'll play them as is, they get a cover save from the boys because RAW says they do."

Then, when you blow up the truck, bust you own RAW out. Wish him good luck gettign 12 orks in the area where the truck was (hint, it can't be done.) He'll loose at almost 1/2 the squad because he can't fit them in the in the hull area of the exploding truck.

The models entire base does not need to be entirely within the footprint, as you measure from any point on the base (so you can fulfill "within" just by having it touching the edge, same as for disembarking) meaning you can get most of the unit in.

IF you've just exploded the trukk (only time you place them within the footprint) however likely that half will have died anyway...

Vrakk wrote:

Thaylen wrote:Yeah its all good and fun until someone gets the old school landraider that is about the size of a rhino. Or the "low rider" orc trucks that can get full cover behind a mob of 30 boys.

A good way stop this crap is to say "fine, we'll play them as is, they get a cover save from the boys because RAW says they do."

Then, when you blow up the truck, bust you own RAW out. Wish him good luck gettign 12 orks in the area where the truck was (hint, it can't be done.) He'll loose at almost 1/2 the squad because he can't fit them in the in the hull area of the exploding truck.

it's not "crap", it's RAW and completely normal. why should a guy who spent hundreds of dollars and hours assembling/painting/finishing his models not use them or get shafted on certain rules just because he's didn't REBUY his army when new models came out? instead of trying to ruin another player's fun and blaming the wrong person, you should use your superpowers to travel back in time and tell GW that the models they made 15 years before a future ruleset don't agree with you and differ from future molds. or better yet, have a reasonable discussion with your opponent who is only following the rules as well as he can with his models. having bigger models also equates to certain advantages like "extra" movement when deployed sideways, more space to disembark, longer range for grabber claws and boarding planks due to larger hull, etc. it's a mixed bag when it comes to model size. the trukks and land raiders you're complaining about were totally fine and more importantly the ONLY modelling option for at least 12+ years. as for half the ork boys fitting, this pic is without even trying much and i get 10. if you tried to pull that RAW on me, i'd prove you wrong (see pic below) and then i'd double check every single one of your model's movement to make sure they're not going over by 1/16" as a return favor since we're playing RAW without any sportmanship consideration... and i'd never play you again. it's no fun for either person when someone ignores the most important rule.

p.s. that sure looks like 50% obscured to me...

If your opponent wants to play with old models and use the 'new rules' for LoS with them to gain an advantage while simultaneously making exceptions to disembarking then they are being a git.

I agree that this needs to be discussed ahead of time before the game, but discussing it so the old models fit the current rules better vs. my opponent trying to shoehorn the most advantage out of the old models is entirely different.

I think this is what you are getting at, but I agree a bit with the previous poster who would take exception with having your cake and eating it too.

calypso2ts wrote:If your opponent wants to play with old models and use the 'new rules' for LoS with them to gain an advantage while simultaneously making exceptions to disembarking then they are being a git.

I agree that this needs to be discussed ahead of time before the game, but discussing it so the old models fit the current rules better vs. my opponent trying to shoehorn the most advantage out of the old models is entirely different.

I think this is what you are getting at, but I agree a bit with the previous poster who would take exception with having your cake and eating it too.

it's not having your cake and eating it too; it's called following the rules since no one pro-older models has suggested only using certain ones and not others. as for making exceptions, i asked for none and posted a pic showing you can put 10 boys completely in the hull area (i chose 10 because that's how big my old squads were in 3rd edition; IIRC, ork trukks could only carry 10 back then). if you're using the old models, you need to play by the rules regardless of whether they are beneficial or detremental to you. my point is that trying to screw the other player (by insisting half his models die when they don't) doesn't help anyone. the rules say old models are completely legal as long as they're official GW. i'm not against updating older models (hell, i posted earlier in the thread that i changed my IG heavy weapons team bases to the new 60mm ones to simply avoid problems... i've also bought bigger termie bases to put under my old third edition metal terminator bases) but i'll certainly object to someone making up house rules on the spot just to screw me over when i'm fielding a completely legal but older vehicle. like i said, there are both advantages AND disadvantages to using the smaller vehicles.

Right, I agree with what you are saying up until an opponent claims cover for his Trukk from an Ork Mob and then starts 'expanding the footprint' of a vehicle so he can place all his models (that was the cake and eat it scenario I was speaking to).

I will gladly give him cover, provided they apply all the new rules. If they are interested in making some exceptions/compromises to make their older models fit the new rules more eloquently I would be glad to do so.

Old Land Raiders are not small models, and they are very tall.

Could Someone post a pic of a old LR next to a new one. I've only seen the old ones in pics and they seemed really small.

Try an old carnifex or better yet the old Chaos dreds. . . I think it could be argued a single gant could give either of those cover.

/shrug

whitedragon wrote:Old Land Raiders are not small models, and they are very tall.

The old land raider (Rogue Trader era) is about as tall as the current model off of the treads, but its footprint is far, far smaller.

kirsanth wrote:Try an old carnifex or better yet the old Chaos dreds. . . I think it could be argued a single gant could give either of those cover.

/shrug

They also struggle to see over objects such as hedges and small stones. Rough with the smooth. Perfectly fine to use them.

insaniak wrote:

In a game that has mechanics that revolve quite significantly around the physical dimensions of the models being used, it's not actually all that unreasonable for someone to object to you using an out-of-date model that is a different size to the one that the rules are currently written for.

Problem with this is that now people are starting to reject players from using FW models in play. The Manti-core is a prime example of this as the codex shows the exact model from FW with a turreted launcher; but since the release of the GW model that FW manti-core is no longer legal? Or if you use the FW model you will not be allowed to turn the turret because its not listed as "turret mounted" but then NOTHING in the IG codex is listed how its mounted. And this thread falls right into the debate we've been having locally ((and even in another thread about that exact example here)) of whether or not we are "buying" for advantage.


If someone has a model, that was issued to be "whatever" in "whichever" codex, then it should be a perfectly legal model. In fact, one of the funny things is that people who are changing the bases of their old models to suit the new ones now actually HAVE to request permission to use bases not supplied with the model , which I find funny. Though I think people are only doin' that around here because the issues have been getting a little out of hand.

Dracheous wrote:

insaniak wrote:

In a game that has mechanics that revolve quite significantly around the physical dimensions of the models being used, it's not actually all that unreasonable for someone to object to you using an out-of-date model that is a different size to the one that the rules are currently written for.

Problem with this is that now people are starting to reject players from using FW models in play. The Manti-core is a prime example of this as the codex shows the exact model from FW with a turreted launcher; but since the release of the GW model that FW manti-core is no longer legal?

or how about the previously mentioned eldar avatar? all three models are made by GW (one from rogue trader era 1st edition, one from the current line, and one from a GW subsidiary forgeworld). i found a pic of the FW one next to the current one and photoshopped (poorly) the RT one in, scaled to match the normal infantry base it shares with the warlock that i covered up, to get the size right.