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I just can't seem to beat competetive space wolves with my chaos space marines.

Lash? He has so much psychic defense it rarely ever goes off.

His grey hunters are much more effective point for point than any of my troops.

Meltas/long fangs rape my vehicles.

Speaking of longfangs, he can get a 6-man 5 missle squad for the cost of 2 f'ing oblits.

And of course... Thunderwolves/Logan and friends. I have nothing in my army that can compete with these units. Abaddon is w/ termies/berzerkers is just about the only thing. And they can fight Logan and friends, but can't beat SS Wolves with attached Wolf Lord, even with the charge.

He just gets way more bang for his buck. So when facing off against an equally skilled player, its incredibly difficult to win, barring amazing dice.

Thought I would see if anyone had any ideas for me. I need some fresh perspective.

Switch codices. CSM suck right now. space wolves don't.
AF

Remember to use LOS-blocking terrain on your tables. Longfangs can't move & shoot unless you combine them with Logan, so you should be able to deny them some shots.

Berserkers and Plagues both beat Grey Hunters, though admittedly are more expensive. Pop the transport and jump the puppies.

Thunderwolves are a pain. I genenerally find that I need to hit them with two units at once- lashing them into a line helps, hitting them with berserkers at one end and a unit of CSMs, plagues, terminators or a daemon prince at the other.

^As funny and as serious as AF's post...lets assume the OP wanted suggestions other than that.
________________________________

Other than the doom and gloom...help us help you Budzerker.
What is your main list? What do you like playing? How do you play?
Are you taking advantedge of cover saves for vehicles on the approach?
Are you using faster elements to work and denying him the charge?
What is the table like, terrain, etc, etc.

It's still a pretty open ended question and with no specifics there's not much use in shooting in the dark.

/shrug... you trudge through. Keep to terrain. As for the combat units, prepare counter assaulters.

Budzerker wrote:I just can't seem to beat competetive space wolves with my chaos space marines.

Lash? He has so much psychic defense it rarely ever goes off.

His grey hunters are much more effective point for point than any of my troops.

Meltas/long fangs rape my vehicles.

Speaking of longfangs, he can get a 6-man 5 missle squad for the cost of 2 f'ing oblits.

And of course... Thunderwolves/Logan and friends. I have nothing in my army that can compete with these units. Abaddon is w/ termies/berzerkers is just about the only thing. And they can fight Logan and friends, but can't beat SS Wolves with attached Wolf Lord, even with the charge.

He just gets way more bang for his buck. So when facing off against an equally skilled player, its incredibly difficult to win, barring amazing dice.

Thought I would see if anyone had any ideas for me. I need some fresh perspective.

Here are some tips that may help you out.

Change your attitude
Attitude is everything. If you are saying that 'its incredibly difficult to win' and 'I just can't seem to beat competetive space wolves', then you have already lost. Instead tell yourself "I have not beat space wolves yet, what do I need to do to beat them?" Stop thinking like your army is useless, as the CSM codex is not!

Demon Princes
These thing suck to fight against. Give them wings and marks of Tzeentch if your facing lots of powerfists/MLs. With warptime allowing them to reroll hits and wounds, they can put a serious hurting on models. Remember that one Wolf Guard on a Thunderwolf can cost as many points as your DP, and the DP is far more effective in assault!

Plague Marines
These things suck to fight against. With a T5 and FNP, they give me no end of headache. Depending on the space wolf player's army setup, they might do the same for him.

Havoc Launchers
I hate fighting these. STR 5, twin linked blast weapon on rhinos? Yes, please!

Use Cover and Movement
Its important to use obscurement and cover against long fangs. Those 5 MLs are great, but they can't move and shoot. Any time they have to move, then they are losing effectiveness. When your getting a 4+ obscurement save, suddenly, those 5 ML shots become much less effective. You can see the exact percentages at the simhammer tool. www.simhammer.com

Name of the Game
2/3 of the missions are objective based missions. If his death star Thunderwolf spend their entire game killing some troops, but don't contest/capture objectives, then he has lost the game.

Use the right tools
Don't use melta-guns vs. the Thunderwolves. On a cost-per basis they won't do the job. Use either multiple battlecannon templates, or massive bolter fire. 3 battlecannon templates will force him to make 6 to 8 saves on the thunderwolves a turn. At the cost of those units, those are saves he cannot afford to make. The other option is massive small arms. A squad of 5 wolves and Login have 13 wounds, with a 3+ save for most of them. Throwing 39 wounds on the unit will wipe them in one round of shooting. How many squads of rapid firing bolters and havoc launchers on rhinos would that take?

Those are some ways to start your thinking. The most important thing is to remember your attitude and to adapt your game. If you don't change your tactics/strategy you will keep losing.

labmouse42 wrote:

Budzerker wrote:I just can't seem to beat competetive space wolves with my chaos space marines.

Lash? He has so much psychic defense it rarely ever goes off.

His grey hunters are much more effective point for point than any of my troops.

Meltas/long fangs rape my vehicles.

Speaking of longfangs, he can get a 6-man 5 missle squad for the cost of 2 f'ing oblits.

And of course... Thunderwolves/Logan and friends. I have nothing in my army that can compete with these units. Abaddon is w/ termies/berzerkers is just about the only thing. And they can fight Logan and friends, but can't beat SS Wolves with attached Wolf Lord, even with the charge.

He just gets way more bang for his buck. So when facing off against an equally skilled player, its incredibly difficult to win, barring amazing dice.

Thought I would see if anyone had any ideas for me. I need some fresh perspective.

Here are some tips that may help you out.

Change your attitude
Attitude is everything. If you are saying that 'its incredibly difficult to win' and 'I just can't seem to beat competetive space wolves', then you have already lost. Instead tell yourself "I have not beat space wolves yet, what do I need to do to beat them?" Stop thinking like your army is useless, as the CSM codex is not!

Use Cover and Movement
Its important to use obscurement and cover against long fangs. Those 5 MLs are great, but they can't move and shoot. Any time they have to move, then they are losing effectiveness. When your getting a 4+ obscurement save, suddenly, those 5 ML shots become much less effective. You can see the exact percentages at the simhammer tool. www.simhammer.com

Name of the Game
2/3 of the missions are objective based missions. If his death star Thunderwolf spend their entire game killing some troops, but don't contest/capture objectives, then he has lost the game.

Use the right tools
Don't use melta-guns vs. the Thunderwolves. On a cost-per basis they won't do the job. Use either multiple battlecannon templates, or massive bolter fire. 3 battlecannon templates will force him to make 6 to 8 saves on the thunderwolves a turn. At the cost of those units, those are saves he cannot afford to make. The other option is massive small arms. A squad of 5 wolves and Login have 13 wounds, with a 3+ save for most of them. Throwing 39 wounds on the unit will wipe them in one round of shooting. How many squads of rapid firing bolters and havoc launchers on rhinos would that take?

Those are some ways to start your thinking. The most important thing is to remember your attitude and to adapt your game. If you don't change your tactics/strategy you will keep losing.

Hint- points can be applied to all armies especially the 1st one!

Yea, Chaos does not discriminate in terms of how the army deals/kills the opponent.
It relies on power armor, close combat, and special ranged and close combat weapons.

Chaos is really no mystery by now. And there is the vibe it's getting old and left behind (not as bad as DE or DA, but you know what I mean ).

Rune priests only have a 24" anti psychic range. If a unit of Thundercav breaks ranks and moves ahead of the rest of the army then it will become vulnerable to lash. If the TWC is 12" ahead of the rune priest and the Deamon prince flies 30" from the rune priest then the Deamon Prince can freely lash the TWC.

Thundercav with storm shields are going to be over 100 points a model after they are armed with a frost axe, wolf claw, or power fist. The other tactic is to just overwhelm them, which requires the chaos player to respect their point value. A unit of 4 TWC + a wolf lord is going to be worth over 600 points. Beating it in CC will require more than 600 points worth of stuff charging it, which will probably requires a deamon prince to lash them into the middle of your army. It's rather easy to do if you bait them with a Rhino being within their 12" charge range. A sloppy space puppie player with 600+ points spent in TWC can be surprising easy to beat.

schadenfreude wrote:Rune priests only have a 24" anti psychic range. If a unit of Thundercav breaks ranks and moves ahead of the rest of the army then it will become vulnerable to lash. If the TWC is 12" ahead of the rune priest and the Deamon prince flies 30" from the rune priest then the Deamon Prince can freely lash the TWC.

Thundercav with storm shields are going to be over 100 points a model after they are armed with a frost axe, wolf claw, or power fist. The other tactic is to just overwhelm them, which requires the chaos player to respect their point value. A unit of 4 TWC + a wolf lord is going to be worth over 600 points. Beating it in CC will require more than 600 points worth of stuff charging it, which will probably requires a deamon prince to lash them into the middle of your army. It's rather easy to do if you bait them with a Rhino being within their 12" charge range. A sloppy space puppie player with 600+ points spent in TWC can be surprising easy to beat.

While your advice is correct, your greatly over estimating how much TWC cost point wise.

4 TWC with diversified weapons is only 260 points. An effective lord on TW can be as cheap as 185, so the whole package is less than 500 and hits like a ton of bricks.

Lash Plague Marines and Oblits are still the way to go. Oblits are a great counter to Long Fangs. If you run two lash princes one should get through each turn. Focus your forces. CSM can beat SW.

G

I have never had a problem with Space Wolfs if you wanna give him a beating try 2 units of Bezerkers it sure works for me. I maxed out 2 full units of 20 lead by a CL and DP charged not affrais of the shooty fluff, used my Vindi and Termies and Oblits to kill everything else. Mind you I play Khorne and Objectives are meaningless to me, as I kill everything I come into contact as a rule. but last game I used a 10 man unit lead by a CL w/demon weapon it laid waste to his entire command squad and my Termies finished off the othres with Raptors and Havocs. Its all about tactics and stratagy as Horus always said "Lets us strike were there strongest, they will lest suspect that".
I dont care about these fluff guys saying it can not be done, I do it every saterday.

Well if the OP insists on playing out of the chaos codex defilers with 4 ccw are a pretty satisfying answer to thunderwolves. Use lash. sometimes the psychic hood will shut you down, sometimes not. It's so cheap to bring that even if you only have a 50/50 or 35/65 chance of using it it's still worth it. berserkers put the beat down on grey hunters. doom sirens too. Abaddon is more than a match for any wolf lord, if you give him a terminator bodyguard and deep strike them off an icon you'll do ok. just be sure to bring lots of terminators because the unit will be shot at. combi plasmas on the terminators help them make their grand entrance.

but seriously. just play blood angels.
AF

Abaddon is more than a match for any wolf lord, if you give him a terminator bodyguard and deep strike them off an icon you'll do ok.

I wouldn't be so keen on suggesting this.
Deepstrike means leaving things to the Reserve Die roll, which can be a bad thing.
Deepstriking in means no assaulting...and vs. an opponent with a brain Abby won't be assaulting for another two turns.
In addition, Abby with termies means Abby is no longer fearless. Ld 10 is as high as it goes, but it still fails at times...which is a hilarious thing seeing termies drag Abby away, even off the board.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Abaddon is more than a match for any wolf lord, if you give him a terminator bodyguard and deep strike them off an icon you'll do ok. just be sure to bring lots of terminators because the unit will be shot at. combi plasmas on the terminators help them make their grand entrance.

but seriously. just play blood angels.
AF

Asides from what Sanct just posted, your asking for a pieplate/blast to land on your fat juicy unit and pop most of it in one shot.

but seriously. Watch/read some battle reports, or some 40k blogs for some tactical thought. As unfortunate as it is, often posting on a forum you will get a response such as "just play blood angels". I haven't had a game against my SW friend for awhile since he only recently got back from a holiday, but we've had 4 draws and 1 victory to him. As labmouse posted, attitude is important. If you play a game with the attitude of "i should just play blood angels", you start doing dumb .



Like deepstriking 10 man terminator blobs.

Sanct
yes reserves can be a bad thing. they can also be a good thing. deep striking abaddon is the best of the available options.

deep striking means no assaulting on the 1st turn he arrives. space wolves don't really have any game other than assault; the overwhelming likelyhood is that they will assault 1st and ask questions later. which is what the chaos player wants. if they run away in order to avoid abaddon (having a brain, as you said) then that advantages the chaos player in 2 out of 3 missions, which are objectiver based and do not reward giving up ground.

Yes Abaddon can be dragged away by his own terminators, and it really really sucks when it happens. It's unlikely to happen though. No guts no glory. You have to look at the alternatives; demon princes are the only hq that doesnt have this problem, and he is in no way the equal of a properly kitted out wolf lord in close combat.
AF

Space Wolves can be built as a compitent shooting army, so they can play the range game.

AF, you don't have to be on the objective turn 1-4. So moving away/toward when it is best for you during that time is the way to go.

The DP is not suppose to compare to the Wolf Lord. It's prefered targets or how it works for the army is different and therefore not comparable.

As for unlikely to happen, you are luckier than most then as Ld 10 just isn't as good as Fearless with respect to being escorted off the board.

In addition, the majority toughness is now T4 instead of Abby's T5. So small arms fire assigned to him got a bit better.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanct
yes reserves can be a bad thing. they can also be a good thing. deep striking abaddon is the best of the available options.

deep striking means no assaulting on the 1st turn he arrives. space wolves don't really have any game other than assault

Strange, I always thought space wolves counter assault game was pretty tight

Sanct

you said: "space wolves can be built as a competent shooting army"
this is such a silly idea I'm not even going to try to talk you out of it.

you said: "the dp is not supposed to compare to the wolf lord. How it works is not the same and it's role is not comparable"
well this is a pretty standard cop out for you. Their roles are exactly the same: close combat. Whatever though you go right on not comparing things.

Anyway if you have something substantive to say go ahead and say it but this "can't compare" stuff is of zero value.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanct

you said: "space wolves can be built as a competent shooting army"
this is such a silly idea I'm not even going to try to talk you out of it.

you said: "the dp is not supposed to compare to the wolf lord. How it works is not the same and it's role is not comparable"
well this is a pretty standard cop out for you. Their roles are exactly the same: close combat. Whatever though you go right on not comparing things.

Anyway if you have something substantive to say go ahead and say it but this "can't compare" stuff is of zero value.
AF

I'd say that most people would call you silly for considering that silly. 6 Razorbacks, 3 long fang squads, dreads, Landspeeder squadrons... If you wanted to go all out shooting. There are other ways to do it. I seriously think that you haven't considered the possibility.

And the DP is not just a close combat unit. It is also a fire magnet, it helps with target saturation. I played a mission from the new book (cannot remember specific mission, at work so cant check T_T), where i had to start deployed and my opponent walked/deepstriked onto the board, and he was trying a all drop pod army. My DP was hiding behind tree's on the very far left. on the other side of the trees was a objective, with a noise marine squad inside a rhino parked on it, and some ruins to its left to give it cover.

Best use of a DP ever. He was too worried about the DP. He didn't want to drop down a single squad, since it would get eaten, and didn't have the number of units to drop down in enough force to have good odds at taking the point AND claim one of the other objectives. It was simply too much effort/chance to take that point and be able to get to another objective. My DP sat there till turn 4, job complete, winged over the forest to go kill people. The Noise marines got to shoot their blastmaster all game, and hold the point.

Big monsterous creatures with wings have more use than simply thumping skulls. They really do.

AF:
Hey, if you don't like it, don't post.
You are making yourself look as silly as you seem to think my thoughts are.

Your one-dimensional doom and gloom is not constructive and not helpful.
Add something constructive, add supporting material or expand on your opinions.

If all you have is a "lol no it's not" then to comment SW can't do shooting is telling me you know very little about them.
To say the DP compares to the Wolf Lord are entirely comparable is also telling me that you do not have an open-mind nor one that is flexible or inviting to new ideas.

You shoot down any idea that is alien to you without actually considering them as viable. You may not like it but it doesn't make it invalid.

For the last time AF, I am not setting people up to FAIL. Why waste that time? I'll rain on the parade if it requires to, but I won't make myself look silly by making oversimplified remarks that are utterly without support or rationale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As the above poster has suggested, they are Cheaply fast. They hit very hard vs. vehicles. They add to taret saturation. Their inability to join squads makes them pretty good candidates for suicide run, tying up more dangerous stuff, and dealing with walkers.

The wolf lord really only contributes in combat vs. something with a toughness value.

This makes the DP more flexible and adds to the whole army instead of augmenting the 'kill' in a single squad.
__________

SW can be entirely shooty.
Greyhunters have access to double specials, razorbacks, access to landspeeders, hvy support like Long Fangs.
Wolf Guard have distributable Cyclone missile launchers and combi-weapon spam ability.
Rune Priests have a handful of utility shooting powers.
Logan Gimnar can give a unit relentless...moving shootin gheavy waepons for Long Fangs....
Even the storm raven is full of weapons.

Sanctjud wrote:AF:
Hey, if you don't like it, don't post.
You are making yourself look as silly as you seem to think my thoughts are.

Your one-dimensional doom and gloom is not constructive and not helpful.
Add something constructive, add supporting material or expand on your opinions.

If all you have is a "lol no it's not" then to comment SW can't do shooting is telling me you know very little about them.
To say the DP compares to the Wolf Lord are entirely comparable is also telling me that you do not have an open-mind nor one that is flexible or inviting to new ideas.

You shoot down any idea that is alien to you without actually considering them as viable. You may not like it but it doesn't make it invalid.

QFT. I had a more summed up version in a different thread:

Jihallah wrote:The sound of AF posting is the sound of a million 's across the internet

Sanct
you said: "Loga Grimnar can give a unit relentless...moving shooting heavy weapons for long fangs."

there. that's exactly what I'm talking about. to you there's nothing wrong with paying 250 points to give relentless to a squad of long fangs. I mean if you don't understand what's wrong with thinking like that then w/e I can't explain it to you.
AF

Dude, I'm only noting it's an option.
An option I have seen people take in real life and on the interwebs. Whether or not it works for you, them, anybody, it's an option.

You constantly refuse to see these options, which is fine and well, but you are not constructive in explaining your stances.

Drop podding LF coming in with 5 MM w/ Logan splitting fire can kill up to 5 Leman Russes in 2 squadrons, or 2 LRs, a bunch of other AV threats.
In addition, it's anot about points made back or spent. It's what you do with them. And, if they accomplish what you want of them then there is nothing 'wrong' with them.

I can't explain it to you.

Which is exactly a "lol no" statement....and not helpful.

If I'm so wrong expand on it.
Logan still has his +1A aura...he's some what of a deterrent to charging the LF's....and he doesn't have to stay with the LF after the turn he arrives....which which case they sit tight as they podded in close and open up on stuff. People take Logan for different reasons...even at the very least to get Wolf Guard scoring......so the points cost doesn't matter with a force multipler like Logan Grimnar.

It's an option, a way of playing it out. If you don't like it, explain why it's bad, because noting his points cost and saying you can't explain it doesn't hold up.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanct
lol no
AF

On one hand, I feel the need to argue against him. On the other hand, I realize the more he talks, the more of a narrow minded idiot he exposes himself as.

Sanct
I'm not really interested in helping or explaining myself to you. I have many times. What I've learned since is that you have a "good enough" play style. what you want is not to win, but to find the good points of even the dumbest decisions and even the most craptastic units. If that's what floats your boat then cool. But don't whine when I don't take you seriously.
AF

Play more loyalists. They're winning. More extreme codex creep. Use yours as a 'Counts As' army.

@AF:
But I'm taking you seriously and not jumping on the bandwagon of calling you a troll which it's sounding more and more like you are.

The tactics forum doesn't only mean one way toplay (yours namely) and it doesn't mean each game is to bend your opponent over the table and rape him and the player that won using something that you deem crap.

Let me ask you, have you seen my suggestion in action(Logan in apod w/ LF)? Are your comments only of Theoryhammer? Whether it works or not is dependant on meta and it has worked wonders before.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanct
I'm not really interested in helping or explaining myself to you. I have many times. What I've learned since is that you have a "good enough" play style. what you want is not to win, but to find the good points of even the dumbest decisions and even the most craptastic units. If that's what floats your boat then cool. But don't whine when I don't take you seriously.
AF

Oh go deepstrike 10 man terminator blobs somewhere you WAAC git. The worst kind of WAAC git too- the dumb kind who thinks he's smart.

crazypsyko
I agree

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanct
you said: "Loga Grimnar can give a unit relentless...moving shooting heavy weapons for long fangs."

there. that's exactly what I'm talking about. to you there's nothing wrong with paying 250 points to give relentless to a squad of long fangs. I mean if you don't understand what's wrong with thinking like that then w/e I can't explain it to you.
AF

As Sanct said, you don't just take Logan to give relentless, he adds many other boosts. IMO, he is one of the best SC's out there, and starting him in a pod with 6 long fangs with MM's is a very nice place for him out for many reasons.

If you have nothing better to contribute to topics than "play flavour of the month", then you can just stay away from the topic. Posting stuff like that is trolling.


Chaos has the tools to fight SW's, I would go with princes with lash, exploit the very nice troop section, and if he plays with thundercav a lot, I would probably go with some defilers. Sure, they will have some issues vs. long fangs, but that also means that they are taking fire off your transports. Combi-termies for any backfield tanks/valuable targets.