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Swarmlord gets to force the opponent to reroll successful invul saves. What happens if the target gets to reroll failed invul saves? Does it still abide by the 'one reroll only' rule? Whose reroll? In which order? Or do both take effect, or both cancel each other out?

SumYungGui wrote:Swarmlord gets to force the opponent to reroll successful invul saves. What happens if the target gets to reroll failed invul saves? Does it still abide by the 'one reroll only' rule? Whose reroll? In which order? Or do both take effect, or both cancel each other out?

per RAW, both rules still apply. your opponent's ability lets him reroll FAILED saves and the swarmlord makes him reroll SUCCESSFUL saves; basically, per strict RAW, you'd have to pick up all the dice and reroll them regardless of what they actually rolled in that situation and stick with the second roll (no more rerolls). most players will simply say they cancel it out and roll once.

They cancel each other out

Basically they do cancel each other out, since no matter what you roll, one ability will force/allow you reroll. The original roll will never stand.

Yeah, Yarrick and wolf claws re-rolling wounds cause problems too. Stick to the one re-roll or cancel each other out ideas.

The idea of re-rolling a re-roll and never even paying attention to the origional roll just makes it absurd. Dice are dice... but actually being able to re-roll a bum dice roll... then having the opponent to force another re-roll does give both players a second chance at playing the dice gods.

But the first roll simply does not matter in this case. You must reroll it.

1. If an individual die passes the invuln test, the opponent forces you to reroll it.

2. If an individual die fails the invuln test, you reroll it.

So basically you take the entire load of dice, roll them, and then no matter what happens, each indiviual die gets rerolled. Not a single original result stands.


Personally, I would play this as a first role, then a mass reroll. But if you want to save time, say they cancel each other out and be done with it.

Guitardian wrote:The idea of re-rolling a re-roll and never even paying attention to the origional roll just makes it absurd. Dice are dice... but actually being able to re-roll a bum dice roll... then having the opponent to force another re-roll does give both players a second chance at playing the dice gods.

It just means you are rolling more dice than you need to. Do you enjoy rolling dice? If so, re-roll away! I have no strong feelings about rolling dice so follow the path of least effort.

Guitardian wrote:The idea of re-rolling a re-roll and never even paying attention to the origional roll just makes it absurd. Dice are dice... but actually being able to re-roll a bum dice roll... then having the opponent to force another re-roll does give both players a second chance at playing the dice gods.

It makes absolutely no difference whatever you do.

The ONLY important thing to do is to remember that you HAVE rerolled the dice, so a reroll from another source cannot let you reroll.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Guitardian wrote:The idea of re-rolling a re-roll and never even paying attention to the origional roll just makes it absurd. Dice are dice... but actually being able to re-roll a bum dice roll... then having the opponent to force another re-roll does give both players a second chance at playing the dice gods.

It makes absolutely no difference whatever you do.

The ONLY important thing to do is to remember that you HAVE rerolled the dice, so a reroll from another source cannot let you reroll.

Well it isn't as if this scenario comes up very often, so yeah I'll roll dice just like I am told to by the rules, even if it takes an extra few seconds for each person to reroll the other guys roll. If the question is about rerolling fails versus a choice to make the other guy reroll everything, either way it affects probability, and really comes down to the outcome of whatever reroll came last. Still I prefer to keep it straight, maybe at the expense of a few seconds to analyze what happened in what order. If everybody plays the rules exactly as written, nobody can gripe afterwards.

From a math perspective, you can take the first roll as your re-roll and skip the forced.

However, I would prefer in that situation to roll and then re-roll, just so rules don't get forgotten later. Don't want to get into the habit of just doing a single and then sometime later in the fight forget to use a reroll.

G - actually the point is it does NOT affect probability.

They are discrete events, so if you are picking all the dice up again the initial roll did not happen, and cannot affect your roll of the dice

Well in that specific instance it does not, but I still think it best to follow procedure just to stay in the practice of doing so, so that people don't skip a step accidentally when it does affect it. Just good practice I guess. Follow the rules to the letter so nothing slips through the cracks during other varied situations. So what? It's just an extra dice throw it doesn't take that long, but accidentally skipping a step anywhere in the sequence of events usually leads to arguements as far as I have seen. May as well do as the rules say.

I was pointing out that it makes no difference either way - you can suggest a "best practice" but your initial claim was that somehow NOT rolling all the dice, picking them up and rolling again was in someway affecting the probability of any one set of results - which is false.

It doesn't affect the probability but I suppose that doesn't mean some people won't want to roll more dice. Try telling a blackjack dealer that the cards are shuffled so you'd like one from the middle of the deck.

Statistically it's the same. But real life, you're going to get a different result. ANd the rules say to reroll them. SO pick 'em up and roll, baby, roll.

And it is slightly important that we do say we are rerolling the dice, rather than just having the two rules cancel out. Thats because there are OTHER mechanics that could allow another reroll of a die, which isnt allowed if there has already been a reroll but would be allowed if we just say that the rules cancel out.

So if you do roll ust once, keep in mind that nothing else can then be used to force a reroll again.



Sliggoth

I could affect the results, as we are in this discussion assuming the re-rolls take place simultaneously. If we assume there is a 'stack' and each rule is applied one at a time we end up with 2 situations:

Fails are re-rolled, adding more successful rolls to 'pool' which then have to be re-rolled.

Successful fails are re-rolled, adding more fails to 'pool' which then have to be re-rolled.

In these situations, either way it has an effect.

Leigen_Zero wrote:Fails are re-rolled, adding more successful rolls to 'pool' which then have to be re-rolled.

Successful fails are re-rolled, adding more fails to 'pool' which then have to be re-rolled.

You can't reroll a reroll.

For Fateweaver/Fortune versus the Swarmlord, use your big boy words and decide how you're going to handle it before you start playing, then be consistent. Either always roll and then reroll, or always only roll once. It doesn't make a difference unless you start dicking around and deciding to only reroll sometimes.