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After hearing some of the complaints about ard-boys in the past, and seeing some of this in action myself. How do you guys feel about a game store that allows employees or the store owner to play in the stores tournaments? Is it kosher for them to play for prizes if their employees/coworkers are making the rules call? I just wanted to some input!

IMHO its not ok! If there playing to fill in an odd spot then fine, but for prizes it just seems like a conflict of interest!

Dont like it at all , just doesnt feel professional if they participate in their own tournament ( unless its purely for fun and doesnt count for anything , then its ok! )

Not saying the owner or employee will be rigging any games but , still

It should never be done.

I don't even play in tournaments in the region that have adopted the NOVA Open's format or hybridized it.

It goes beyond employees/owners. If you designed or heavily contributed to the design of the tournament, playing in it is in stark contrast to ethics.

I don't care if you think you're honest or upright or that it's "fine," you need to understand that if you provide a PRODUCT, you have customers, and those customers will be your opponents the second you play. It's wrong to do.

Either design well stress tested mission formats and tournaments, and enjoy running them ... or play in those put on by others. Designing your own tournament and then playing in it?

Get serious.



PS - We as gamers should expect more of tournament organizers in general. Missions and formats should be well-tested, receive input from sources outside the bathwater, and should never be played in by their operators. Hell, I don't even join area clubs b/c I want to avoid any possible collusion or corruption simply in the sense of PERCEPTION. It does me no good if people suspect I'm fixing or unfairly advantaging the tournament for me or friends or clubmates or whatever.

It's immensely frustrating for those of us that pour our hearts into putting out great tournament products to see people half-ass it for one, and play in their own systems / buddy buddy it up for two. I stand openly offering to build other tournaments their packets with NOVA Open's format or a hybridization of it for this reason, b/c I've garnered the input from a wide global community, and done everything I can to collate thousands of stresstest games and modifications. I'll put your graphics, your titles, your names, etc. on it, it'll be a gorgeous lil pdf, and I'll take my name and branding completely off it. If you are putting on a tournament and want to play in it, at the least take the format from SOMEBODY ELSE. At the best, do that (instead of halfassing your own just b/c you want to) and then DON'T play in it, run it.

Very important subject, that almost should be further reaching than just "owners/employees playing in them," and should stretch to the whole mega issue of corruption, collusion, buddy-buddy issues, etc., in tournaments today (even some of the "big" ones).

At the most recent tournament I attended, one of the two owners of the store won 1st Overall, but he had been working in another city at another store for about six months by then... The other part-owner won the Player's Choice (player-picked painting/modelling) because the person who got the most votes also won 2nd Overall and players were only eligible for one prize. It's not like we didn't all know who we were voting for. That guy also won 1st Overall the previous year, because he simply kicked arse on the weekend. He deserved it and I don't think anyone had any complaint.

The TO for this year's was a club member but not financially involved in the store other than being a customer.

What do people think of that?

The only time I see a TO or shop owner playing is as the "ringer." IE the guy who hopes in last second if you have a odd number of guys. Otherwise, no they really should not be playing in events. When I ran events, I have not played in them, I just run in them. That way you have more objectiveness of match up's, and your removed from the playing/ results by at least 1 level.

For prize support, they should be removed from any win's/ results. I played in a few tournaments a few years ago where it was near impossible to win at a shop, and the local's always won everything. You know what happened? I stopped going along with a lot of the guys I knew. it was not worth it. Why pay to have them win everything. The long term result: players stopped going to the shop, it shut down.

The store that I play at (when I play at a store) is owned and opperated by 1 guy. He played in Ard Boyz with his store being the home turf and took 2nd in the 1st round. I can kinda understand him wanting to play, but he should have got other people to be the TO at that point. He is the most knowledgeable about the rules and is usually fair, but it really looked bad, especally with outsiders comming in for it.
Its also the reason I have not bought things from him in the past. If a customer wants something and you say "hang on, as soon as this turn is done" dont be supprised when said customers says "nevermind"

njpc wrote:
For prize support, they should be removed from any win's/ results. I played in a few tournaments a few years ago where it was near impossible to win at a shop, and the local's always won everything. You know what happened? I stopped going along with a lot of the guys I knew. it was not worth it. Why pay to have them win everything. The long term result: players stopped going to the shop, it shut down.

You stopped competing because you didn't win the first couple of times? Is this because you think it was rigged or did you/your mates just have a hissy fit?

I pay to play because it isn't free to hire out a club and bar and put on a big event, as well as the fact that I genuinely enjoy playing the game. I don't pay for a chance at the prizes, and those who do are the worst sort.

No one in our club participates in the Mechanicon tourney. Tony runs it and the rest of us staff it.

Perception is obviously a key factor here. By not playing, it demonstrates to anyone attending or considering attending that we keep things above board.

I also like to think it kind of happens naturally because our heart's in the right place. Mechanicon isn't about us, it's about the community. We have our fun vicariously.

Of course, for us there's always the after-hours gaming and merriment.

MVBrandt wrote:It should never be done.

I don't even play in tournaments in the region that have adopted the NOVA Open's format or hybridized it.

It goes beyond employees/owners. If you designed or heavily contributed to the design of the tournament, playing in it is in stark contrast to ethics.

Mike, you're welcome to play in any IFL tourney, even if we do use your format. Yes, we 'stole' your format, but WE are running the event, and you playing in our event is someting I would look forward to. Besides, I know you want a rematch..................... Meanwhile, I'll keep ducking you.

12 S7 shots. 5+ dead valkyries.

I hate you still to this day.

<3 and kisses,
- Mike

I played in a tournament a ran once, but strictly as the ringer so someone didnt have to sit out for a round. Basically I play like it was any other event, but am not eligible for any prizes etc. I dont like when people play in their own events just for fun, have fun running it, or play your own side game unrelated, so long as you keep a good eye on everything.

Don't forget the AP1 Psyker Battle Squad large blast...............

It doesn't bother me. I agree that it doesn't look good, and for any larger event (beyond maybe a dozen guys) you should have a dedicated TO/ringer, but I rarely run into problems with TOs being shady.

I think it's interesting that there are people that hold TOs to higher standards of ethics than lawyers (at least in ohio) are held to.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:You stopped competing because you didn't win the first couple of times? Is this because you think it was rigged or did you/your mates just have a hissy fit?

i think he's implying that the tournies were rigged to favor locals. there are plenty of ways to do this and the easiest is to simply not publish details of the tourny missions/rules/faqs/scoring ahead of time (an easy tell) while discussing the details with the locals. one report here on dakka described a tourney where the second mission was a whacky one with a secret twist where you switched armies with your opponent AFTER deployment. the poster was new to the store and his opponent was a local player who apparently was told by the TO of the "twist" and deployed his army horribly while the new guy did it normally, and the opponent informed him of the switch before the TO announced it officially. another way is to simply score people higher on comp/painting that are local by not publishing any paramaters despite glaring differences in the quality/points between armies (pics and reports of that posted here too). finally, the other way is to not randomly assign the pairings (also complained about here) or not having an objective system for it. putting a local player against the 9 year old kid with an unpainted clearly not optimized army for an easy win or against the "ringer"... or the locals always paired up against each other every round to ensure that a locals advance every round.. there are plenty of easy ways to do it not even counting bad calls in favor of locals on rules disputes that defy GW's faq's and other published accepted ones. Finally, there's always the tried and tested method of simply never announcing the scoring rules/details and determining them during the last round so you can get the result you want. all you need to do is encounter this kind of crap once in a venue and you won't want to come back (justifiably, not just a hissy fit).

i personally don't attend any tournies that don't publish that info (FAQ's they're using, scoring for comp/painting/missions, mission breakdown) ahead of time after going to a poorly run local tourny while back. in my case, i don't think it was foul play but simply a case of a poorly run, thought out at the last minute tourny that mimics alot of the problems i mentioned above. employees/owners/tourny judges/tourny organizers shouldn't play in their own events except as ringers (with no chance at prize winning).

Eidolon wrote:I played in a tournament a ran once, but strictly as the ringer so someone didnt have to sit out for a round. Basically I play like it was any other event, but am not eligible for any prizes etc. I dont like when people play in their own events just for fun, have fun running it, or play your own side game unrelated, so long as you keep a good eye on everything.

I've done that as well. For the first couple years of the Ard Boyz that was the only way I got to play in it as I was always running it. So this year I go 3-0 in the prelim and can't go to the semi.........

The only time an onwer/organizer should play, is as a 'ringer' in order to fill uneven table numbers or of someone bails early to avoid Bye games.

And even then, they should be placed against the lowest ranked player in order not to impact the tourney scores, (and probably the lowest ranked player could probably use some training on how to play the game so playing against an experienced ringer could help them learn some rules)

Usually they can play as a 'ringer' only.

For 'Ard Boyz its a little sticky as they could be the best player in the area and they are planning to move on. I would say if they won it they should keep the invite and pass on the prize to the next person in line though.

For 'ard boyz, for the most part they should plan to attend a 'ard boyz at a different gaming location than the one the work at if they are serious about competing.

whalemusic360 wrote:The store that I play at (when I play at a store) is owned and opperated by 1 guy. He played in Ard Boyz with his store being the home turf and took 2nd in the 1st round. I can kinda understand him wanting to play, but he should have got other people to be the TO at that point. He is the most knowledgeable about the rules and is usually fair, but it really looked bad, especally with outsiders comming in for it.
Its also the reason I have not bought things from him in the past. If a customer wants something and you say "hang on, as soon as this turn is done" dont be supprised when said customers says "nevermind"

I'm surprised that the store is even in business if that happens alot. As we all know, customers come first, and should not be told to hold on so that you can finish a turn. If its you waiting on another customer or having some real issue to deal with then fine, but a turn to end. Id walk out of the store then and there and never return.

At this point I go maybe once every two months or so. Usually when I run out of paint or glue, about the only things I get their anymore. Done a few things to gak me off, so Ive turned to online purchasing. But thats totally OT.
I've been to one tourny ran by Corbet (spelling?) that was well structured which he didnt compete in. The one prize per person is a good idea, though I'm not sure how it would work with door prizes being handed out before the end of everything.

Depends on the particulars, I'd say.

Playing as a ringer is obviously okay. I also don't have a problem with a store employee participating in a tournament if he's otherwise completely uninvolved (i.e., not acting as judge or TO), especially if he/she had to pay the same entry fee as anyone else.

Now if a non-ringer is also in charge of matchups, judge rulings, etc... that's a bit shady.

I agree that is seems shady when the TO plays in his own tournament. I don't mind them playing the ringer to make things even but playing against other for real isn't right.

I have been a TO for about three different tournaments at my local store, at each tournament I had to play. All of my players knows who I am and how I play (which is to win) inwhich they are all aware of that. It not shady if you give all your oppenents the missions before hand. this will give all players the same benefits as the TO and a headup. Now the TQ is fully aware of the rules and that goes for the same for the players.

I've played in a couple of tournaments at a local shop that allowed an employee to play. It was perfectly fine in my opinion. Though honestly, I found it to be OK, because of the specific guy. He's a really mellow, easy to get along with, non-power gamer, who was just looking to have a good time. In fact, of all the people who played, he was one of the few players that I'm still willing to play against.

Bat Manuel wrote:
For 'Ard Boyz its a little sticky as they could be the best player in the area and they are planning to move on. I would say if they won it they should keep the invite and pass on the prize to the next person in line though.

nkelsch wrote:For 'ard boyz, for the most part they should plan to attend a 'ard boyz at a different gaming location than the one the work at if they are serious about competing.

I meant store owners not TO's- it's never OK for the TO to play. For the 'ard boyz sometimes there's not another event within a reasonable distance so where's the harm in an owner playing in it? It's not like he/she can get away with anything as most locals know what's going on from round to round. And if the owner could get away with anything then so can any local who's "in" with the owner or TO so what would it matter if the owner played when it could be rigged for anyone there?

Bottom line: If the store's shady don't play there. If it's a bigger tournament then there is no 'owner' and TO shouldn't be playing

Here's my story.

Back when Mechwarrior was huge, our local shop didn't have a tourney organizer.

I was, at the time one of the best players in my state and because I generally had all the models I wanted - I agreed to help out the shop.

I would setup, organize, communicate with Wizkids for prize support - all the TO stuff. Nobody else wanted to and I did it for the players. Not myself.

Eventually though, I did want to participate in the tournaments and the local shop was the only one in the area - so I asked the players and shop if it was alright if I played in some of the tournaments (sometimes forfeiting my prizes), and sometimes (when my faction's Limited Edition was on the line) playing for the prizes. The players all didn't have a problem with it at first, but eventually a few voiced concerns.

I always had another top level player judge my personal games, and I made unbiased calls purely RAW when disputes erupted in other matches. I also just happened to win most of the tournaments.

The few players I remember typically weren't very good and would complain that I would win tournaments. Some claimed it was a "conflict" of interests and that I had some sort of insider info that they didn't. I did not, scenarios were posted online before they were even shipped to the shop, and the shop didn't let me have the documents until shortly before the tournaments.

Now, I can completely understand how it may seem to certain players (petty jealousy, envy can be powerful emotions and cloud better judgment and reason) could think that I had some sort of upper hand, but I was the same guy steamrolling casual matches before tournaments even existed for the game.

If I was personally judging my OWN games, (HURR HURR I WIN CUZ I DA JUDGE), obviously that's not ethically reasonable. However, what some of the players failed to realize was that I was giving up MY own personal time to make sure THEY had events to play in, around my school/work/whatever at the time. I'm also a player, someone who enjoys the game and in this case deserves the right to compete in the only event in town, and sometimes the weekly tournament was the only time I had available to play the game.

I know this may not be applicable in most areas (larger ones), but I bet this story sounds familiar to people who live in smaller towns/cities.

I don't personally think there is a right and wrong about Organizers playing in their own events, but you have to be very careful and strict about it. I think most of the people who complain about it being wrong or unethical are butt-hurt over losing and this is the way they have to get back at someone who is simply a better player.

So that's my story, hopefully it's relevant?

The OP question was not about TOs playing in the own tournament, but about the store owner and employees.

So I guess you guys really feel that once someone owns a store or works in one that they should be prohibited from playing huh? Always the Host, never a guest? Not allowed to have fun themselves, just a host to slave away and run games for everyone else?

Really, if the person, be it store owner or employee, is not involved with the ruling or scoring of the tournament what should it matter?

Honestly you guys make it sound like the people who own, work in, keep and maintain the places you go to play in are all in on some grand conspiracy of little toy soldiers.

It seems to me to be primarily a function of individual maturity and manners. Some store owners and employees can objectively participate in a way that does not give them an advantage or cause problems. Very few people would actually scheme and plot to win their own tournament, but TOs and their friends (who often work for the venue) sometimes unconsciously structure the event in their favor. Maybe its how the terrain is arranged, maybe it is the matchups, maybe it is the missions. It seems hard to avoid the potential for problems, particularly if other players are not well informed. As has been said before, good communication is critical to making the event fair for all.

I understand the desire of the players who are store employees and also wish to participate in store events, but tournaments are kind of like gambling. I find there is a gambler's rush with tournament play that I do not experience in pickup matches. People are emotionally charged up and want to win. They are paying to play and trying to win prizes. Think about it this way, would you want to play Texas hold 'em against the casino owner or the pit boss? In these circumstances, people aren't always reasonable and do not respond well to anything that seems slightly unfair. For that reason, I think it makes the most sense for these players to make the mature decision and sit it out or play as a ringer.

As I understand it, a club in PA near Philly rigged a tournament so a club member could go to the next Ard Boyz tourney.

So, if a store owner can't play, nor the employees, then neither should club members, so as to avoid the impropriety of favorship.

The local game store routinely have the best painted award to a half painted army, while mine, which usually scores in the upper teens at another store, was blanked.

So what about game company employees??? No GW employees allowed to play in any tournaments???

As long as the judging is unbiased, I say let everyone play.

CatPeeler wrote:Depends on the particulars, I'd say.

Playing as a ringer is obviously okay. I also don't have a problem with a store employee participating in a tournament if he's otherwise completely uninvolved (i.e., not acting as judge or TO), especially if he/she had to pay the same entry fee as anyone else.

Now if a non-ringer is also in charge of matchups, judge rulings, etc... that's a bit shady.

I completely agree. My area isnt the biggest for gaming and if I play an employee I don't really have a problem with it. I guess it really has to depend on if they're honest people and you can genrally tell if they're not after a time.