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I recently got my hands on the pack of 10 Kasrkins/Stormtroops (followed by much rejoicing and girly screeching), and have since then used them several times in games. But here's my question: Are they really worth the points? Or, what's a good way to use them? I tend to slap them in a Valkyrie and deep strike it behind enemy lines, negating their own deep striking skills, but giving them ample support fire. I gave them two meltas, but I also use Marbo, who seems just a little more in-tune with the whole "Anti-tank deep striker" with his "He's Behind You!" rule, and his demo charges. I guess the Stormtroops would be a bit more reliable than Marbo, but is there a better way to use them?

Also, a friend of mine suggested that instead of fielding them as one ten-man unit, I split them off into two five-man teams, each with one melta. I guess this would be good for multiple tank-busting, but what about killpoints? Is the trade-off worth it?

Yes It's worth it. The other use is to run them as allied inquisitorial stormtroopers and stick cheap 5-man scoring squads in your vendettas.

Allied Inquisitorial Stormtroopers? Is there anywhere I could snag the rules for that? Mah codex doesn't mention it (Or maybe I'm just looking at the wrong place). I've actually been interested in snagging a Vindicare Assassin, but haven't for much the same reason. I dunno the rules or point values.

Do a search for "Witch Hunters Codex" or "Daemon Hunters Codex" and you'll find the pdf on GW's site. I would post a link, but you can't get the file unless you sign in and register anyway. Both types of stormtroopers are identical, but I think the ally rules accidentally got cut from the DH codex, so use the witchunter one instead.

You can also just take 5 IG stormtroopers with 2 meltas for 105 points. It's 35 points more than the same unit in inquisitorial STs, but they can deepstrike on their own to kill tanks (and get a reroll).

I sometimes use a small unit of 5 IG stormtroopers with no upgrades to infiltrate and block opponent's infiltrators or scout moves, or outflank them to rapid-fire a rear echelon unit with AP3 firepower. But it's not the most efficient use of points in the codex.

In general the IG stormtroopers are a bit too expensive, and the overcosting just gets worse the bigger the unit you take.

Guardsman
I'm not a guard player but I play against a very strong guard player pretty frequently and when that codex first came out we discussed the unit in great detail. my opinion based on the times I saw them in action and on theory hammer is that even against MEQ they aren't very good. It's because they cost about the same as the things they're out to kill, and because they tend to get separated from the rest of the army. At best it's a suicide mission on which you'll break even. At worst it's just a suicide mission.

I'd advise you not to run them as allied inquisitorial storm troopers. Your basic guardman at 4 points a man is a much better buy than the inq storm trooper at 10.

AF


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use them as veterans. the models are sick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
use them as veterans. the models are sick.

Flavius, thanks for the info. I had no idea! Now I can actually use that stuff. (And I feel stupid about never realizing I can put both meltas in the five-man squad.)

And Abaddon, I've had people tell me the same thing. But that's why I deepstrike then in the Valkyrie. Maybe it's expensive if it fails, but with the Valkyrie drawing fire off them, firing missile pods and such while they tank-bust, it can lead to them actually living. Sometimes.

Guardsmanius wrote: Are they really worth the points?

No.

Guardsmanius wrote: what's a good way to use them?

As far as I can tell, their points are absurdly inflated because of their special operations (they're basically forced to buy one, which gets rolled into the price). As such, the only way to make them worth their points are to really use the heck out of the doctrine they choose.

Recon: MTC is useless, but this also lets them outflank. Since they're really fragile, you're talking about one of two things. Either you outflank with a couple of meltaguns right into some armor hanging out on the side, or you outflank with plasma guns right into some marines that are hanging out by the side. I don't think I'd ever use this special op, as the ONLY point to outflanking stormies is to do some surprise damage. Your opponent can easily mitigate this, and you need to have an astropath to make this worthwhile.

In any case, outflanking power blobs costs a surprisingly similar amount of points for much more stuff.

Airborne: This lets you run the old suicide melta stormies. It's so expensive now, I don't know why anyone would want to do it. Basically, you have to play just insanely aggressive with your deepstriking and hope that 2 meltaguns are going to cut it.

Sneaky: It's recon... except it has a vague chance of pinning... woohoo...

The problem is that recon and behind enemy lines are terrible and airborne basically encourages you to waste hellguns. That you are forced to pay for one of these terrible options makes them simply not worth taking. Perhaps in the next codex, they'll have the option to take stuff or leave things behind so that you don't have to take bloated points squads if you didn't want to. Until then...

Guard
well try it out. I really believe in learning by doing.
If it works it works. alot of times just looking at stats doesnt tell the whole story...
AF

Yeah, I hear yah. The Punisher looked pretty cool too. Then I used it. I should've magnetized it.

In any case, the rules for the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are epic. I mean, assuming I don't field the Veteran and just get five guys, fifty points for five guys with BS 4, Hellguns and Targeters isn't too bad. Not saying I'll do that, five guys die quick... even then, the 130 points for the Vet and two meltas is a far cry from the 200-ish points for normal ones. And assuming I still use the Valkyrie technique, that's a pretty good point saver. Thank you!

EDIT: Wah? I can give my Veteran a Combi-Melta. 145 points for three meltas? I FRIGGIN' LOVE THE WITCH HUNTERS.

yep

Don't feel bad, i did the same thing with the Punisher i built too.

as for Stormtroopers, i personally use Vets instead. if you really must use them, stay cheap.
5 man squad, 2 meltas or plasmas. DS them, infiltrate them or outflank with them.

Nice figures. Just play them as a veteran squad.

Well, with Creed's specials, I might be able to use the Inquisitorial guys there too, and save some points. Or not, if I give the Vet a straight melta. Heh.

I wonder how hard it is to convert the Punisher into a weird-looking Battle Cannon?

And I'd prefer to not just field them as Veterans. I already GS'd a bolter onto the Sergeant.

Guardsmanius wrote:Yeah, I hear yah. The Punisher looked pretty cool too. Then I used it. I should've magnetized it.

In any case, the rules for the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are epic. I mean, assuming I don't field the Veteran and just get five guys, fifty points for five guys with BS 4, Hellguns and Targeters isn't too bad. Not saying I'll do that, five guys die quick... even then, the 130 points for the Vet and two meltas is a far cry from the 200-ish points for normal ones. And assuming I still use the Valkyrie technique, that's a pretty good point saver. Thank you!

EDIT: Wah? I can give my Veteran a Combi-Melta. 145 points for three meltas? I FRIGGIN' LOVE THE WITCH HUNTERS.

You can do that with ordinary IG vet squads. 100 points for the ten guys and three meltaguns, and if you really want carapace armor the squad adds up to 130 points. You lose Ap5 and targeters but gain krak grenades and 15 points. Nothing special unless you're using a small squad or really really love the models.

Good point. I'll probably just use them in the small five-man squads... on the other hand, the AP5 could be useful. Targeters not so much. And to be honest, I wish the models were more like the artwork.

Although my sergeant is epic. Bald of awesome.

Guardsmanius wrote:Although my sergeant is epic. Bald of awesome.

Makes you wonder what % of an army tends to be because the models are awesome rather than the unit is worth its points.

Of course that is why the Vendetta is so good. Great model, great for the points.

They are terrible. After much field testing, theres no reason to take them. Take veterans, because if their taking a valk, same bs, same armour save, and an extra meltagun for 130 points is so much better.

I HATE storm troopers.

Citizensmith wrote:
Makes you wonder what % of an army tends to be because the models are awesome rather than the unit is worth its points.

Well, if you factor in the Stormies, and Punishers, and Commissars (Non-Blob Commissars), Yarrick if the army is tank-heavy or shooty...

....25 percent? Maybe a little more?

And to Jaon, then that means I'll just be taking the tiny five-man squads for tank busting. But I've got a twelve-hour gaming stretch tomorrow, so I'll have ample time to test this stuff out.

Guard
I'm pretty confident that what you'll find is that storm troopers, while ok, are outclassed by other options in your book..... but field testing is always best.
AF

Ailaros wrote:

Guardsmanius wrote: Are they really worth the points?

No.

Guardsmanius wrote: what's a good way to use them?

As far as I can tell, their points are absurdly inflated because of their special operations (they're basically forced to buy one, which gets rolled into the price). As such, the only way to make them worth their points are to really use the heck out of the doctrine they choose.



Airborne: This lets you run the old suicide melta stormies. It's so expensive now, I don't know why anyone would want to do it. Basically, you have to play just insanely aggressive with your deepstriking and hope that 2 meltaguns are going to cut it.

:-) Well, playing the other armies I do (Wolves and FT) I have to admit the drop on top of the Land Raider with the 2 Meltas is a reasonable thing to do... In our local meta I think most of the Marine forces use one or more Raiders, or something that HAS to die quickly... I'll be giving them a try, might be a big disapointment like so many other things in the codex, but it might work out well..

The best use i've found for them is to stick a 5 man unit with two meltas in a chimera and outflank them. The chimera keeps the squad relatively safe, and between the stormtroopers' guns and the chimera's weapons, they can effectively harass backfield enemy units and contest backfield objectives. There's other ways to outflank chimeras, but it involves taking special characters which can be even pricer than the premium you pay for stormtroopers. The squad comes in at 160 points and can prove to be a real thorn in the enemy's side. If you take an astropath, they become quite reliable too.

use them as normal guardsmen and make an entire army out of them cause the models are really cool looking. (thanks what I did!)

Storm troopers arent easy to use unless your suicide striking them.

they can have an awesome effect on a game, taking out a critical devistator squad or tank or some such is what they are good at, they are what you use to take out the scariest thing on the board, or to lead assaults etc since they can actualy survive being carged by a 5-man marine squad (unlike veterans).

also, if you look at how the points break down, it ends up not looking like so much.

5 pnts for guardsman
+2 for BS4
+3 for 4+ save, (this is were vets stop.)
+2 for AP3 and hellpistol
+2 for krak grenades
+2 for the abillity to outflank, infiltrate, move through cover, cause pinning tests and re-roll scatter for DS
total 16 pnts per model

so all those doctrines cost 2 pnts per model. the only ambiguous values are for the AP3 and doctrines which i put as equal.

so for what you pay for you get a good amount of gear, their main weakness is that they are still S3 T3 and WS3.

at any rate, if they get overly separated from the rest of the army they are toast, like every other unit in the codex apart form Marbo (and even he is a one shot wonder 90% of the time). I learnt this the hard way trying to take out full BT squads and wondering why they died.

what roll they play depends on who you play against, personaly i like to use them in conjunction with a mechanised advance to turn my opponents flank. It will surise you how much difference wiping out one Devistator squad can screw your opponents defence.


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I think people have problems with stormies at least initialy is that they expect them to be as good as marines. there not supposed to be, the fact is that if they costed 1 or 2 points less they would be up there with Valks and Vends in the over-powered/ under-priced category

Looking over the IG codex as a whole, I think the intention was for stormtroopers to fill a hole in the list, and I think they do that. Since veterans can no longer infiltrate (without Harker), nobody can outflank or deepstrike without a transport &/or character anymore, STs give an army without valks the ability to put some guys on the other side of the table to do important things that need to be done. Especially deepstriking, which no other non-transported unit can do anymore.

I completely agree that Valkyries + vets make a lot of the functions that stormtroopers would otherwise serve redundant. But if, like me, you don't use valks--and do use tactics that benefit from small annoyance units like with 18th century light infantry--then they're an option. I could use ratlings for the same purpose for cheaper, though.

It's also valuable to be able to choose their special ability at deployment, and never underestimate the ability of krak grenades to cheesebomb a stationary tank sitting too close to the short edge of the table. And the fact that they have lasgun, laspistol and ccw means they can occasionally jump an isolated, weak unit in the backfield and defeat them in HtH.

But like I said, I think they're overcosted. About 4 points less, and they'd be worth it. And they should pay less for special weapons, since they give up their AP3 gun to get a special.

I'd still take them.

dumplingman wrote:use them as normal guardsmen and make an entire army out of them cause the models are really cool looking. (thanks what I did!)

+1. An all kasrkin guard army would look awesome and a half on the field

Lord Commander Phyrus wrote:also, if you look at how the points break down, it ends up not looking like so much.

5 pnts for guardsman
+2 for BS4
+3 for 4+ save, (this is were vets stop.)
+2 for AP3 and hellpistol
+2 for krak grenades
+2 for the abillity to outflank, infiltrate, move through cover, cause pinning tests and re-roll scatter for DS
total 16 pnts per model

The problem is that you MUST take ALL of these upgrades. If you could pick and choose to actually specialize the squad for it's mission, they might be worth taking.

For example, let's say I could throw away everything and then re-buy BS4 and +2 for "behind enemy line"s for 9 points a model. Outflanking 8 BS4 AP3 weapons and 2 plasma guns (with the chance to cause pinning) for only 120 points might actually be worth taking, honestly. As it is, you're forced to buy a bunch of other junk which makes said configuration 190 points, which makes it prohibitively expensive.

The only way to use Kasrkin;

Squad of 5 w/ 2 x meltas and deepstriking aggresively. Any other configuration is too expensve and can be trrumped by a much cheaper unit (normally Vets).

L. Wrex

I agree with Wrex. Exactly how I feel.

I'm still going to say you should use them as inquisitorial stormtroopers.

70 points for a 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns is pretty good as vendetta cargo(10 guardsmen with a plasma guns and a plasma pistol are 80, 10 vets with 2 plasma guns are 100).

I think they bring some tactical flexibility to the codex. In addition being the cheapest BS4 melta delivery system in the codex, their other special ops can be used to seize some initiative early on, by infiltrating or scouting to a place where the enemy has to do something about them, freeing up time and space for other units. The main thing is being able to choose the operation after you know the tactical situation (terrain/opponent/mission), and if you plan on being flexible with them, I think plasma is probably best. Not to say dedicating them to deepstriking melta is the most focused use of them. They are so expensive though, that they have to be taken very carefully so as to not sink a big percentage of a list into them. They are, after all, squishy.

I've seen it said before that they complement foot lists more than mech lists, as mech brings it's own style of mobile firepower.