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I currently play Green Tide, however I was curious on what Kan Wall does.

I know you get cover saves and well some tough mobile cover that can mess things up.

But how good is it, and what does it in excel in?

Gretchin have BS3, which is much better than your average Ork's BS2, and Kans can carry a few nice weapons (Grotzookas spring readily to mind).

I personally am not a fan, because it vastly reduces the number of models in your army, and to me, Orks = numbers. Orks can be just as shooty as Kans, they just make up for their poor BS with sheer volume of fire.

That's the way I play.

Also, it's worth mentioning that AV11 is kind of squishy for walkers, and they travel in squadrons, which means that immobilized = wrecked, so even glances can kill'em.

So they're not really all that great?

Or are they anti-melee?

I don't think they're all that great, but some people swear by them.

Try proxying them in a friendly game, see how they work for you.

What is it that makes them good though?

The fact it's mobile cover or what?

I havent ran a kan wall yet but I might here soon but from what I understand its alot of things at once.

First you have your 2 meks with KFFs. One to take the dreads as troops and to add to there durability. Yes they are only av 11 but its really amazing how many times you will make those 4+ saves and your enemy do nothing to them in the shooting phase.

They pump out a decent amount of power as well as being able to hurt some things in CC.

They can also protect your boys on foot with the wall formation. Giving them a better cover save as well as protecting them from a charge.

The list is more about working together then the walkers by themselfs being amazing.

I use six, and have always found nine to be redundant. They're threatening and provide a 21" cover-save barrier when at full 4" coherency.

So pretty much KFF > vehicle > boyz = WIN correct?

I smash face with 85 Orks (25 are ard boyz), 6 kans, a deff-dredd and a Big Mek... I usually spend the rest on grots, lootas and shootas.

Go online play a couple of games with them on Vassal40k and see how they do.

I think there are two different approaches to 'kan wall' that I've seen.

The one many people think of is nine kans, 2 meks, and 2 dreads. I don't have much personal experience with this.

The one I have run, and that Dakka Detachment 1 ran at Adepticon last year, has some kans, but doesn't go all-out to run the dreads. Instead, it loads up on lootas and shoota boyz. It's really a shooty army, that uses the kans for counter-assault and cover saves.

My 1850 list only had six kans in it. 120 boyz and 30 lootas though. And if you use them wisely, you can get away with 1 mek.

My 1750 kan-oriented list is pretty much...

Mek w/ KFF
3 Kans, 2x big shootas, skorcha
3 Kans, 2x grotzookas, skorcha
Deff Dredd, extra weapons
30 Boyz w klaw/bosspole nob
30 Boyz w klaw/bosspole nob
25 Ard Boyz w klaw/bosspole nob
28 Gretchin
10 Boyz w/ Trukk
10 Tankbustas (typically in trukk)
14 Lootas

Are skorchas really good on Kans?

They ,,waste" the better BS and have a short range that can bring the Kans in Close Combat anyway.

The skorcha kan can serve a useful purpose, in having a kan that is cheaper than the others, who takes the first hits. You know you'll lose cans, so allocating them to the guy who cost less is easy enough. And, if an enemy is rushing you, having that template can help.

How much cheaper?

Check your codex, not allowed to give point costs out here.

I know but telling me: 10 points less or 12% less is allowed as far as iI can tell.

I will try that out.

What do you mean we can't give point cost?

Most forums (Dakka included) do not allow people to post point costs for individual gear items. The thought is that it will prevent GW legal from getting pissy and trying to shut down the forums. In practice, GW doesn't have a leg to stand on, and most forum owners (or their ISP) don't want and can't afford to fight off the lawsuit, so both sides pretend and it all works out.

As for the Kan Wall, I'm a big fan of 9 of them with Grotzookas, though I don't run what most people would call the Kan Wall. For me, they're the second wave, rather than the screening force.

I like using buggies or Deffkoptas and throwaway units of MegaNobz in transports to crack my opponent's transports open. Or occasionally lootas or Ambushing Kommandos. Once troops are out (and usually nicely clustered around their ex-transport), dropping upto 18 S6 blast templates on units tends to make them vaporize. Even terminators and other 2+ save units don't like making 10-15 saves per unit of Kanz shooting at them.

I try to keep them out of combat, usually, but sometimes they can be the tipping point. S10 power-weapons on AV11 walkers will (slowly and eventually) chew through units like IG blobs and Gaunt swarms. They can also join in with a late game assault from one of my boyz or Nob units, to provide a few extra armor-ignoring attacks. As a tip, though, they fare extremely poorly against other walkers and most MCs.

Finally, the DCCW also make for decent back-up tank crackers, if for whatever reason the rest of my army can't do the job. Since you don't care about the lousy WS when attacking vehicles, you get more vehicle-killing attacks out of Kanz than you would out of Dreads or anything else except MegaNobz, per point.

And the upside is that a full 9 Kanz is still only 415 points, or about the same cost as a single kitted out Nob squad. A Grotzooka armed Kan is 45 points. A MegaNob is 40 points, and a Nob with a Klaw is at least 45 (before any other options like 'eavy armor, cybork, etc). Unlike either of the others, they're completely immune to S4 weapons (though somewhat worse against heavy weapons if there's no KFF around). They're faster than MegaNobz on foot, and will have more PK-equivalent attacks than the Nobz for the points. And unlike either, they've got a S6 blast weapon with BS3 and 2 shots.

The only downsides to Kanz are WS2 (which makes them even more useless against most MCs and many other walkers than MegaNobz or Nobz would be), and the fact that they compete with Battlewagons for slots. And unlike Nobz and MegaNobz, you can't put 'em in a transport, so they will take an extra turn or two to get to the opponent if you're being aggressive with them.

The only other way I'd ever run Kanz would be with Rokkits, to take advantage of their BS3. Skorchas, IMO, go on Dreads since a dual Skorcha Dread is only 5 points more than two Skorcha-armed Kanz and benefits from WS4 and AV12 and it wastes the BS3 on the Kanz. KMBs are never worth the points, and Orks can get Big Shootas too many other places to waste them on BS3 kanz. Rokkits are a little more expensive, but if you need units which can help crack open transports and kill medium armor, they're a pretty decent choice (though buggies with TL-Rokkits are more point efficient and more mobile, if slightly more fragile).

DaR wrote:Most forums (Dakka included) do not allow people to post point costs for individual gear items. The thought is that it will prevent GW legal from getting pissy and trying to shut down the forums. In practice, GW doesn't have a leg to stand on, and most forum owners (or their ISP) don't want and can't afford to fight off the lawsuit, so both sides pretend and it all works out.

As for the Kan Wall, I'm a big fan of 9 of them with Grotzookas, though I don't run what most people would call the Kan Wall. For me, they're the second wave, rather than the screening force.

I like using buggies or Deffkoptas and throwaway units of MegaNobz in transports to crack my opponent's transports open. Or occasionally lootas or Ambushing Kommandos. Once troops are out (and usually nicely clustered around their ex-transport), dropping upto 18 S6 blast templates on units tends to make them vaporize. Even terminators and other 2+ save units don't like making 10-15 saves per unit of Kanz shooting at them.

I try to keep them out of combat, usually, but sometimes they can be the tipping point. S10 power-weapons on AV11 walkers will (slowly and eventually) chew through units like IG blobs and Gaunt swarms. They can also join in with a late game assault from one of my boyz or Nob units, to provide a few extra armor-ignoring attacks. As a tip, though, they fare extremely poorly against other walkers and most MCs.

Finally, the DCCW also make for decent back-up tank crackers, if for whatever reason the rest of my army can't do the job. Since you don't care about the lousy WS when attacking vehicles, you get more vehicle-killing attacks out of Kanz than you would out of Dreads or anything else except MegaNobz, per point.

And the upside is that a full 9 Kanz is still only 415 points, or about the same cost as a single kitted out Nob squad. A Grotzooka armed Kan is 45 points. A MegaNob is 40 points, and a Nob with a Klaw is at least 45 (before any other options like 'eavy armor, cybork, etc). Unlike either of the others, they're completely immune to S4 weapons (though somewhat worse against heavy weapons if there's no KFF around). They're faster than MegaNobz on foot, and will have more PK-equivalent attacks than the Nobz for the points. And unlike either, they've got a S6 blast weapon with BS3 and 2 shots.

The only downsides to Kanz are WS2 (which makes them even more useless against most MCs and many other walkers than MegaNobz or Nobz would be), and the fact that they compete with Battlewagons for slots. And unlike Nobz and MegaNobz, you can't put 'em in a transport, so they will take an extra turn or two to get to the opponent if you're being aggressive with them.

The only other way I'd ever run Kanz would be with Rokkits, to take advantage of their BS3. Skorchas, IMO, go on Dreads since a dual Skorcha Dread is only 5 points more than two Skorcha-armed Kanz and benefits from WS4 and AV12 and it wastes the BS3 on the Kanz. KMBs are never worth the points, and Orks can get Big Shootas too many other places to waste them on BS3 kanz. Rokkits are a little more expensive, but if you need units which can help crack open transports and kill medium armor, they're a pretty decent choice (though buggies with TL-Rokkits are more point efficient and more mobile, if slightly more fragile).

Thanks for the input.

How to make an effective kan list.
You will need at least one Big MeK with a Kustom force field. He will give all Kanz within 6" a 4+ cover save. To make this range larger place the Big Mek into a transport, any will do, and now you measure 6" from the transport. Personal preference is to take to big meks two units of nobs and two battle-wagons, AV14 with 4+ cover save is a problem for most people.
Target over load and take as many kanz as you can. That way theres no way to destroy them all.
Finally have a Large chunk of boys to help out, If they're shooting the kanz they're not shooting them.

Big Mek with Kustom force field x2
Nobs (3)+ Battle wagon X2
Boys (20)+nob+P.Klaw X3
Killa Kans (3)+ bigshoota X3
That's 1295pts leaving a lots of room for upgrades and tweaks before you hit 1500pts.

That's the bones of a Kan wall army add flavour to 1500pts and you're away.

I'll just have to try it out.

Dark Scipio wrote:I know but telling me: 10 points less or 12% less is allowed as far as iI can tell.

Don't argue with the Mod
It basically splits on three positions, new people who don't know any better and post anything they want, people who don't care and post anythign they want, the other guys who don't quake in fear at GW-Pet-Lawyer and points Unit Costs, and them who do and don't post ITEMISED POINTS, or points for items, and on top of that don't post unit costs because if I compare unit A) to unit B) I come up with cost C = anyone with a basic understanding of the pricipals behind Venn Diagrams could then use various lists to rapidly point cost that whole codex.

Point being is if you *need* to know weather that upgrade costs 5 ten or 13 points when you've already been told it's LESS is a good sign to... you guessed it! "Buy a Codex."

I played against a kan wall army a few weeks ago with my space marine biker list.
I was blown away by how effective the shooting of the kans were. Literally...blown away, the rokkits/grotblasta took down quite a bit of my army.

Savior
the kan wall just tries to overload the opponent's anti tank capabilities. alot of armies can't handle it and the walkers just crush them in close combat. It's death to alot of close range armies but it can be a difficult army to play against opponents who can shoot you from far away. I'd call it a good intermediate army but it lacks the tactical flexibility and overwhelming power needed to make a really top tier force.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Savior
the kan wall just tries to overload the opponent's anti tank capabilities. alot of armies can't handle it and the walkers just crush them in close combat. It's death to alot of close range armies but it can be a difficult army to play against opponents who can shoot you from far away. I'd call it a good intermediate army but it lacks the tactical flexibility and overwhelming power needed to make a really top tier force.
AF

Do wonder about you Abaddon. Exactly what is it lacking? Kans are cheap and with a kustom force field backing them up difficult to kill. 700pts gets you 9 kans, two kustom force field and a pair of dreads: At 1.5K that leaves 800pts that you can take any thing with; heck you could even take 110 boys in four units, each with a nob and power klaw.

Tri
what do you wonder about.... ? how can I be so awesome? how is it even possible? I don't really know. some how, some way, it is in fact possible to be so great

It's lacking because the army is basically playing rock paper scissors with your opponent. If they throw down the wrong kind of army the kan wall is doomed. To your point about 900 points: yeah, so when you attack a 2000 point gunline with your 900 points of high mobility stuff (for arguments sake lets say you spend it all on that), do you really think your 900 points worth of stuff is going to stand up to 2000 points worth of shooting?

Look just because you beat your buddy with something 1 time doesn't mean it's a great army. I gave it it's due - it's a good intermediate force.
AF

It is worth pointing out that with Kustom Force Fields, only a single member of a unit has to be within 6" of the Mek for the entire squad to get the save. This means that one Big Mek, carefully placed and with a "propa formashun" around him, can grant cover to your entire army. All you have to do for the Kans is put them in a triangle formation, with one Kan in back and close to the Mek, and the other two farther forward to meet the enemy.

For Boyz mobs that need the cover save (for whatever reason), getting a member or two of each mob near the Mek should be easy when you have so many bodies to work with. Vs. armies with plenty of large blasts, for instance, it might be sensible to deploy your mobs in long lines stretching across the board at 2" coherency, and if even just the end of the line is within 6" of your HQ, the entire line has a 5+ save.

As stated before, putting your Mek in a vehicle also makes this even easier, and lets you spread out just a bit more, which can be helpful. I would think that a Battlewagon would mostly end up just being a big target for your opponent, but that might be a good thing depending on your tactical goals.

What does "intermediate" even mean, AF? Do you actually do the research or do you just say the first thing you think about a list without every having played it or played against it? I've seen Kan tournament lists that sweep the floor with mech IG lists, BA lists, Mechatau lists, you name it.

The Kan strategy is a good one, Savior. Don't have any doubts about that.

I personally say I am not a fan because it's not my style of play, at all - on top of that I've only played a Kan list once, and I didn't know what I was doing, so I got creamed. But by no means does my personal prejudice against it mean that's not what you should do, if the style appeals to you. It all comes down to a matter of preference.

My own list is a WIP Kult of Speed list, but that's just because that's very much my style. Lots of different Ork lists can be competitive. Your Green Tide is one, the Kan Wall is another.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Tri
what do you wonder about.... ? how can I be so awesome? how is it even possible? I don't really know. some how, some way, it is in fact possible to be so great

It's lacking because the army is basically playing rock paper scissors with your opponent. If they throw down the wrong kind of army the kan wall is doomed. To your point about 900 points: yeah, so when you attack a 2000 point gunline with your 900 points of high mobility stuff (for arguments sake lets say you spend it all on that), do you really think your 900 points worth of stuff is going to stand up to 2000 points worth of shooting?

Right first its 700pts, unless you're upgrading further. Bigshoota on the kanz and duel flamer on the Dreds.
Secondly 2000pts to kill 700pts? Well No $*** Shurlock. Though it posses a question as to what happened to the other 1300pts.
(would also like to know what you're going to be using to kill them)

Look just because you beat your buddy with something 1 time doesn't mean it's a great army. I gave it it's due - it's a good intermediate force.
AF

No but the fact is that it has done well repeatedly for myself and for a lot of people, including those at the GT, does.