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Well, I know that for the most part, you play a game you're expected to be open. your oponent has to know who has what, whats in that and all that.

Fine with that.

But, if you have a cheat sheet, or a sheet where you keep ideas about how to keep the army together, and how to make troops work well together, you don't have to show that to an opponent, do you?

The note: I was kicked out of a competition because I refused to allow such a sheet be seen.

Do I have to show my opponent?

I would say it depends on the Tournament Organizer/Event Organizer. In tournaments what they say usually goes.

I have no idea 'what' you mean by 'cheat sheet'. There is no such thing as a 'cheat sheet' in the 40k rules so it is hard to know what you mean.

You mean like your Army Roster and armory summary that lists all the rules for your army?

1. In a TO, anything the TO says, goes.

2. Army Rosters, Codexes, rules summaries, wargear, psychic powers, basically everything is going to be 'open' in 99% of 40k tourneys. There is no expectation of secrecy especially if the TO says so.

If you have to write on a piece of paper: Turn 1, trukk moves forward, turn 2, disembark and assault. then spend some time memorizing battleplans and keeping them inside your head then your 'cunning plans' won't have to be shared.

What I gleaned from his post was that this was his strategic playsheet, which he didn't want his opponent seeing in order to keep his tactics under wraps.

In which case, it's entirely up to the TO as to whether this can be done or not.

My recommendation is identical to the above: memorize battle plans, don't write them down. That way they're unknown to your opponent, but you can still implement them from memory.

Although the truth is, in tournament play, your opponents are likely to be familiar with the tactics you're using anyway, so them seeing the sheet isn't a terrible thing, but this isn't always the case.

SaintHazard wrote:What I gleaned from his post was that this was his strategic playsheet, which he didn't want his opponent seeing in order to keep his tactics under wraps.

was the "cheat sheet" with your strategies on the same paper as your army list? in 99.99% of tournies, your army list must be open and available to opponents at any time (alot of them actually tell you to give a copy to each opponent). if you wrote your super secret strategy on it, then your opponent has every right to see it in most tournies.

Personally, I'd say that as long as it's not one of the few things you're required to show your opponent (i.e. on the same sheet as your army list) and you're not so distracted that it detracts from the game, it's none of their business what you're reading.

AlexHolker wrote:Personally, I'd say that as long as it's not one of the few things you're required to show your opponent (i.e. on the same sheet as your army list) and you're not so distracted that it detracts from the game, it's none of their business what you're reading.

But the bottom line is that the TO's word is Word of God regarding what you can and cannot use and what your opponent does and does not have a right to see.

Poor decision on the TO's part, I'd say. Based on what we'e been told...

Why should you have to show your opponent a piece of paper that you're not required to have?

SaintHazard wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:Personally, I'd say that as long as it's not one of the few things you're required to show your opponent (i.e. on the same sheet as your army list) and you're not so distracted that it detracts from the game, it's none of their business what you're reading.

But the bottom line is that the TO's word is Word of God regarding what you can and cannot use and what your opponent does and does not have a right to see.

while technically correct, i think the advice the OP needs as someone who seems new or returning to the hobby is what is normal/expected at a tourney. a tourney organizer can technically require people who play eldar to play barefoot and stand on one leg but that doesn't mean its normal or something considered standard. your recourse as an attendee is to ask for your money back and never attend that store's/organizer's events ever again if they require you to do weird things. telling someone that their scrap sheet with some strategies jotted down MUST be shown to the opponent is NOT normal unless you happen to write it down on your army list.

SaintHazard wrote:But the bottom line is that the TO's word is Word of God regarding what you can and cannot use and what your opponent does and does not have a right to see.

A TO's authority has limits. If I bring a notebook to the game and the TO feels that he, or my opponent, have the right to read it as a condition of entering the tournament, I'm going to tell him to go himself. I have fulfilled my obligations by presenting my army list to my opponent. I'm not going to let them paw through the rest of my stuff to make sure it's all kosher.

You may ask for your money back, however they are under no obligation to do so - as most packs have a "must comply with TO" clause in there. If you do not do so then you can be told to leave without recourse.

Now it is unusual for a "cheat sheet" to be an issue, I think that perhaps not all the story has been given...for example exactly what prompted the opponent to ask to see the sheet in the first place?

AlexHolker wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:But the bottom line is that the TO's word is Word of God regarding what you can and cannot use and what your opponent does and does not have a right to see.

A TO's authority has limits. If I bring a notebook to the game and the TO feels that he, or my opponent, have the right to read it as a condition of entering the tournament, I'm going to tell him to go himself. I have fulfilled my obligations by presenting my army list to my opponent. I'm not going to let them paw through the rest of my stuff to make sure it's all kosher.

Then you'll likely get kicked out.

The bottom line is that the TO's authority does not have limits. He/she is the highest authority in any tournament. There's no getting past that. If you don't like his/her rules, don't play at that venue anymore.

However, warboss is correct in that some rules are not "standard," in that you won't find them at the majority of tournaments you play in.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Now it is unusual for a "cheat sheet" to be an issue, I think that perhaps not all the story has been given...for example exactly what prompted the opponent to ask to see the sheet in the first place?

This is what I'm most interested in. What exactly does "keep the army together" mean? If you're talking about some sort of playbook with tactics in it, then I can't imagine that they'd actually hold true beyond one limited and specific case anyway outside of generalized easy to remember statements (point dakka this way --> ). If anything, I'd have shown the other person the sheet, and then completely played the game a seperate way altogether.

If this is all about a tac sheet or mem sheet (tactical or memory) then it would just be bad show for the TO to disqualify anyone for not showing your opponent this (it is a conflict game, and as such the reasons for how you act is an essential part of keeping the game together, your opponent isn't expected to explain that he's presenting his Land Raider in the hopes that you spend all your AT shooting on it rather than his Chimeras, for instance). If you didn't want to show the TO these items, though, then it's more or less your own fault.
It's like Shrek, there's layers to it.

If you're talking about an army list, yes, you should show your opponent. If you're talking about your strategy, the FETH NO!

Why would you show your opponent that? That's like saying "Hurrdurr, here's what I'll be doing the entire game. Make sure you get behind cover before Turn 4, because I'll be firing my battlecannons and you'll need it ,hurrdurr".

SaintHazard wrote:

The bottom line is that the TO's authority does not have limits. He/she is the highest authority in any tournament. There's no getting past that. If you don't like his/her rules, don't play at that venue anymore.

However, warboss is correct in that some rules are not "standard," in that you won't find them at the majority of tournaments you play in.

Great a nerd with a God complex. I am yet again reminded of why I never attend tournaments.

TO's may have a great deal of authority but if enough (or even one) people complain about how they are running events, the may not be asked by the sponsors to run them in the future.

Because the TO required you to.

If the TO says you must do it (and either you or they are probably acting like small idiots if it gets that far) then you do it, or get removed.

Ask before, is the best policy.
Though cheat sheet....the only cheat sheet I have is a piece of paper that tells me:

"PSYCHIC POWERS FIRST", when I play Eldar. I don't think I can survive playing Eldar without it

agnosto wrote:Great a nerd with a God complex. I am yet again reminded of why I never attend tournaments.

And that's your prerogative, but lay off the personal insults.

agnosto wrote:TO's may have a great deal of authority but if enough (or even one) people complain about how they are running events, the may not be asked by the sponsors to run them in the future.

Only true in sponsored tournaments. Most smaller tournaments do not have sponsors.

SaintHazard wrote:

agnosto wrote:Great a nerd with a God complex. I am yet again reminded of why I never attend tournaments.

And that's your prerogative, but lay off the personal insults.

I thought it was pretty obvious it was not directed at you; sorry if you took it that way. I was referring to whatever TO is such a tool that he kicks someone out for having a "playbook" or something and doesn't want to show his hand.

Sanctjud wrote:Ask before, is the best policy.
Though cheat sheet....the only cheat sheet I have is a piece of paper that tells me:

"PSYCHIC POWERS FIRST", when I play Eldar. I don't think I can survive playing Eldar without it

QFT (except I play CSM with different times when powers have to be used).

I think it depends on the content of the sheet. Honestly I think it's silly that somebody would DQ you based on having a tactics sheet, but maybe you can just eliminate the need for one?

Now if the sheet has stuff like reminders such as "remember to shoot pistols before assaulting", I don't think it's a big issue to show your oppoent that (except that now they might remember as well!).

What tournament was this? I'm interested in hearing the other side of this. (I'm pretty sure that there is more to the story)

agnosto wrote:I thought it was pretty obvious it was not directed at you; sorry if you took it that way. I was referring to whatever TO is such a tool that he kicks someone out for having a "playbook" or something and doesn't want to show his hand.

My apologies, I misunderstood.

Heh, ive played in some tourneys in the past at an old flgs where the to wanted to dq me for bs reasons.

Turns out the TO isnt god , the flgs owner is buy as much product as i do and he will side with you every time over some slowed TO acting like a berk.

kill dem stunties wrote:Heh, ive played in some tourneys in the past at an old flgs where the to wanted to dq me for bs reasons.

Turns out the TO isnt god , the flgs owner is buy as much product as i do and he will side with you every time over some slowed TO acting like a berk.

Unless they're the same person.

In which case they wont jeopardize their income by DQing you for nonreasons.

Samus_aran115 wrote:If you're talking about an army list, yes, you should show your opponent. If you're talking about your strategy, the FETH NO!

Why would you show your opponent that? That's like saying "Hurrdurr, here's what I'll be doing the entire game. Make sure you get behind cover before Turn 4, because I'll be firing my battlecannons and you'll need it ,hurrdurr".

agreed, Why would it matter if its not your army list?

I have to say, it feels like there is more to this story. If there is not, then certainly its completely ridiculous.

I'm imagining the following scenario:

2 guys playing a tourny game, everything is going smoothly. Player A pulls out a piece of paper from his pocket, and looks it over while Player B is doing something on his turn.

Player B says "Hey champ, what ya got there"?

Player A says "It's my super awesome secret strategy and tactic cheat sheet. I keep all my super awesome secret strategies and tactics on it."

Player B says "Let me see it!"

Player A says "No way, its super awesome, and is secret."

Player B "Buuuuuuuut I waaaaant to seeee it. I must discover your super awesome secret strategies and tactics before they are unleashed upon me!"

Player A "No wai"

Player B runs to the TO, "My opponent is using a super awesome secret strategy and tactic cheat sheet, and won't let me see it!"

TO raises voice to get everyone's attention "Attention everyone! Stop what you are doing and look at Player A. He has a super awesome secret strategy and tactic cheat sheet, and he is keeping it all to himself! I demand that he produce it forthwith or forever be banished from my tournaments!"

Player A "Never! I can't allow my super awesome secret strategic and tactic cheat sheet to fall into the hands of a tyrant! I would rather accept banishment!"

TO says in booming voice "So be it. You are hereby banished for all eternity. Guards, escort this man from my building."

And then all the Imperial Guard players escorted you out, right?

Is that what happened, or is there more to this story?

edit: @ agnosto: Copy paste is ftw.

LOL

I can't believe how many times you typed, "a super awesome secret strategy and tactic cheat sheet". Please tell me you copy and pasted that.

I agree with you and several others when you say there has to be more to the story.

/shrug... how about the probabilities of stuff and such.
Or a spread sheet of what are actions that are prob. gonna go your way.
Hell maybe it's a flow chart of what actions you will take with certain units based on the opponent.

/shrug. 40K/Fantasy is a pretty transparent game. But stuff like the above is not something that you need to show the opponent because it's information the opponent can find out for themselves with just the army list, codex, and rulebook.

If I had to try this out in a competitive scene I'd have these two lines scribbled on my 'cheat sheet':

Close Combatty the Shooty Things
Shooty the Close Combatty Things