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Hi!
I've been playing with my speedfreaks against the imperial guard of a friend of mine, And for some time now, I find it difficult not to be completely wiped out. On 2000 points he brings:
2 basilisks, 2 hellhounds, a lemand russ battle tank, 3 chimera's that outflank, 3 mortars, 10 lascannons, 3 missile launchers and 2 30-man guardsmen blobs with a commisar. His lascannons and missile launchers crack open my trukks and battle wagon. Then, his hellhounds burn up anything that survived the crash while his mortars and basilisks pound anything else into oblivion.
How Can I beat this with orks?

How does he make his chimeras outflank? o,0

AlmightyWalrus wrote:How does he make his chimeras outflank? o,0

Wild guess says they're dedicated transports for Captain Al'Rahem's command squad and the two infantry squads of his platoon.

Have you tried shooting at them? How about assaulting?

Al'Rahem (spelling?) is a platoon officer upgrade which lets (or rather forces) his entire platoon to outflank. It sounds like the opponent has the minimum 2 squads + Al'Rahem command in chimeras.

EDIT: Ninja'd

EDIT2: Might try to help too, even if might not be much off a help...

I think speedfreaks vs. IG is rather straight-forward, you charge, he shoot. A KFF (or 2) is needed, and any vehicles that is not covered by the 4+ cover bubble o' death should be covered by vehicles which are, giving everything a cover. You should be in his face turn 2 (turn 3 at the latest), try to multi-assault as much as you can, but avoid the bigger squads unless you are sure to kill them in 2 turns.
Use some fast attacks slots to get fast moving rockets, try to shake a vehicle and then move onto the next, keeping the firepower as low as possible until you reach them.
If you dare to be a little unfluffy you might take Snikrot to sneak up and rip up bassies or other squishy things. (s6 vs. AV10, open-topped, stationary = good)

Snikrot and friends help against that artillery as well. If he's going first, place your entire army in Reserves.

Normally, I use deffkoptas to shoot the hellhounds or occupy a lascannon team while 4 trukks move flat out towards the enemy lines, followed by a battlewagon with 8 nobz. A boss in mega armour tags along with snikrot while a bikerboss goes tankhunting. Points are filled up with 3 kannons. One shooting fase is enough to blast through the flat out cover of my trukks, mostly killing them all. Snikrot sometimes makes up for this, if he manages to charge a blob of infantry and survives long enough for reinforcements to arrive. That is, if there's anything still left standing nearby.

Alright first: why, an the name of god, do snikrot charge a blob of all things? Use him to rip up back armor and small units, small.
4 trucks I think is sort of too much of a middle ground, take 5-6 (having them as the main force) or only 1-2 (+ alot of battlewagons, using the trucks more of a harrasement). Also, you got no KFF, I would scrap the Mega-Armour boss (partly because I think it's TOO sneaky of a move. ) and add in said Mek with KFF.

Could you please post your complete list, either here or in the army list section? It's slightly easier to make adjusments then

Thanks for the help. My problem with using snikrot is twofold.The IG player tends to surround anything with an armour value with a meatshield.He learned his lesson after his first encounter with snikrot. Secondly, If he's not in cc during the IG shooting face, snikrot's dead, even with 15 kommandos backing him up. Last time I used:

PK boss on warbike with attack squig, cybork body and eavy armour.
A mega warboss with attack squig, cybork body and bosspole.

Snikrot and 15 kommandos.

4 x 12slugga boyz with a pk nob, bosspole and 'eavy armour in a trukk with red paint job.
8 nobz with painboy, stikkbombz,4 PK, 3 big choppa's, 7 kombi-rokkits, cybork bodies, eavy armour, a waaargh! Banner and a battlewagon with armour plates, reinforced ram and 4 rokkits.

2 deffkoptas with rokkits and a buzzsaw
3 deffkoptas with 1 rokkit and a big bomb.

3 kannons with 3 ammo runts, 6 extra grots and a grot prod runtherd.

A few things i can add in about your list you posted. You could drop the mega armor on the boss or just drop him all together.

Really the only thing koptas are great at is a 1st turn charge. Take 3 units of one kopta with a buzzsaw and thats it. On turn one. turbo boost to get into position then on your turn shoot the rockets and charge armor. If you dont get 1st turn have them outflank and try and do the same thing. Plus the big bomb just really isnt all that great from my exp.

Now for me. I dont like the whole nob wound allocation build thing. I mean for all the points you put into that one squad you could have a ton of other things. Orks are more about numbers then quality. Plus being guard just a naked squad of 5 nobs w/ a pk in a battlewagon is more then enuff to wreck anything he has.

One hard part about his list is all the outflanking which I honestly have no idea how to deal with.

Non-sense! you cannot beat the imperial guard.

On a serious note, Ork boys will chop up the blobs nicely, but the massive amount of tanks is a problem. Could you use looters to scare off the hellhounds? Or take advantage of the battlewagons av14

Greetings!

Here's a 1,999 list:

HQ: Big Mek + KFF + 'Eavy Armor
HQ: Warboss + Powerklaw + 'Eavy Armor + Attack Squig

Troop1: 30 Shoota Boyz + Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole
Troop2: 30 Shoota Boyz + Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole
Troop3: 19 Gretchin + 1x Runtherder
Troop4: 19 Gretchin + 1x Runtherder

Elite1: 15 Lootas
Elite2: 15 Lootas
Elite3: 5x Kommandos, 2x Burnas + Snikrot

FA1: 1x Deffkopta + Twin-Linked Rokkits + Buzzsaw
FA2: 1x Deffkopta + Twin-Linked Rokkits + Buzzsaw
FA3: 1x Deffkopta + Twin-Linked Rokkits + Buzzsaw

Heavy1: 3x Killa-Kans with 3x Rokkit Launchas
Heavy2: 3x Killa-Kans with 3x Rokkit Launchas
Heavy3: 3x Killa-Kans with 3x Rokkit Launchas
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deployment:

1. Both Lootas units deploy in cover in the center of the field if possible. Space them 2" apart if you can while maintaining cover and fields of fire. Buy a GF9 Tactical Template if you don't have one; its awesome for measurements, coherency, the works.

2. Both Gretchin squads deploy on your flanks: One left, one right. Spread them out with 2" coherency as well in a line going up the side of the table. As you move across the table, they're going to move up with you and keep the table edges blocked off.

3. Your nine Killa-kans go in the front; close enough that all benefit from the KFF's 4+ cover save.

4. Your 60 boyz go behind the Killa-kans.

5. Your Deffkoptas go left, right, and center on the edge of your deployment zone, unless you go second - then they're in reserve.

You should have a box on the table, comprised of a table edge back, gretchin sides, and kan-wall top. Everything in your army has a 4+ save at this point, with the possible exception of gretchin - you'll need to watch where they get placed.

Gametime!

-If you went first, your deffkoptas turbo across the table to do a turn1 assault; against vehicles if possible. If not, into something meatshielding a tank that you want Snikrot to assault.

-Your Lootas stay put, but everything else moves forward 6", and then probably runs D6. You're expanding your box. Chimeras can't outflank through your gretchin, protecting your boyz and Lootas (most importantly) meaning that they're going to have to come on right in front of your killa-kans with their STR10 DCCWs and their STR8 Rokkits. They can move 6" and fire, or move 12" and not fire - either you're going to hit on 4+ and do bad things, or he didn't shoot at you and...you're going to shoot at him with rokkits.

-Two units of Lootas with 15x Lootas apiece light up his basilisks and hellhounds, and chimeras when they come out.

-When Snikrot comes in, the Warboss breaks off and goes for the Leman Russ if possible, or another high profile target. If the lascannons are on foot in a heavy weapon squad, go tie them up. Snikrot and 5 Kommandos burn / assault; again - preferably into a vehicle, but into a unit if you have no choices - depends on what your deffkoptas are doing.

-All these are destructive forces, but are simply paving the way for the REAL threat - 60 boyz putting out 120 shots before assaults, the killa-kan assaults, and the whole thing being covered by a Loota firebase.

This same thing can work against most army lists out there. Enjoy!

Dashofpepper wrote: list+tactics+deployment ideas+nudges in the right direction=barrel full of win

As you can see from the above post, Dashofpepper is the kind of guy you send PM's too asking for ork advice, and you will never be let down

Can't really argue with Dash's list.

I'd wreck it, but then I'm exceptionally awesome.

Monster Rain wrote:Can't really argue with Dash's list.

I'd wreck it, but then I'm exceptionally awesome.

loltastical!

Stormrider wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Can't really argue with Dash's list.

I'd wreck it, but then I'm exceptionally awesome.

loltastical!

I'm angling for a GT next month. Here's hoping we find out.

Definently get lootas, you cant hurt the tanks but you can definently crack open the hellhounds and the artillery, that way you wont get mopped up afterwards

That army list looks really great, but sadly, I lack 70% of those units. My ork army mainly consists out of black reach boxes, With the intel I've gathered here, I came up with the following list:

PK boss with attack squig, cybork body and bosspole.
KFF Mek with PK, cybork body, bosspole and attack squig.
2 x 8 loota's
5 nobz with stikkbombz, 2 big choppa's, a PK, painboy and cybork bodies.
5 x 12 slugga boyz with stikkbombs, PK nob, bosspole and 'eavy armour.
1 x 19 slugga boyz with stikkbombz, PK nob, bosspole and 'eavy armour.
1 x deffkopta with tl. Rokkits.
1 x battlewagon with red paint job and 4 rokkits
2 x looted wagon with big shoota and extra armour

Basic idea is to put the KFF mek with the 19 boyz in the battle wagon. In front of him, 4 trukks cruise forward, with 1 of the boy trukks to the right and the nobz with the PK warboss in a trukk to the left. Loota's stay at the back in their looted wagons while the deffkopta hovers within the forcefield and hopefully pops some hellhounds. Could this work?

Jihallah wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: list+tactics+deployment ideas+nudges in the right direction=barrel full of win

As you can see from the above post, Dashofpepper is the kind of guy you send PM's too asking for ork advice, and you will never be let down

Actually, when people send me PMs, I usually ask them to make a post that I can respond to publicly so that others can read and input as well.

MementoMori wrote:That army list looks really great, but sadly, I lack 70% of those units. My ork army mainly consists out of black reach boxes, With the intel I've gathered here, I came up with the following list:

PK boss with attack squig, cybork body and bosspole.
KFF Mek with PK, cybork body, bosspole and attack squig.
2 x 8 loota's
5 nobz with stikkbombz, 2 big choppa's, a PK, painboy and cybork bodies.
5 x 12 slugga boyz with stikkbombs, PK nob, bosspole and 'eavy armour.
1 x 19 slugga boyz with stikkbombz, PK nob, bosspole and 'eavy armour.
1 x deffkopta with tl. Rokkits.
1 x battlewagon with red paint job and 4 rokkits
2 x looted wagon with big shoota and extra armour

Basic idea is to put the KFF mek with the 19 boyz in the battle wagon. In front of him, 4 trukks cruise forward, with 1 of the boy trukks to the right and the nobz with the PK warboss in a trukk to the left. Loota's stay at the back in their looted wagons while the deffkopta hovers within the forcefield and hopefully pops some hellhounds. Could this work?

That.....

Is an awful list. Absolutely awful.

You get a copy and paste; you can't have read anything I've written before or you wouldn't write a list like that.

First of all, orks are a unique codex. An ork boy is significantly cheaper than just about any other model in 40k, and is basically a platform from which many things spring (other kinds of ork variants - stormboyz, lootas, nobs...). If you read the fluff, every ork starts in the same place, and as they develop, they lean towards on klan/society, which is how they figure out what kind of ork they're going to be.

In other codexes (space marines and their variants being the most prolific), basic troops are well-rounded models. You ever play Final Fight? How about ANY kind of game with character selections? You've got the big, strong guy that's slow...the average Joe....and the weaker but very speedy character. This applies in 40k as well. Space marines are like your average, well-rounded Joe. Orks are NOT. You can't mix and match orks in any order you like to make a generalized list.

This is *not* called power building, its called understanding your codex, how your codex is designed, and using it as such. Every time someone calls "playing a theme" to be "powerbuilding" I want to stab them in the F***** eye. If you look in the Ork codex, do you see the codex writers putting in pictures for the sample armies of some Lootas backing up a squad of meganobs in a trukk, who are advancing next to some buggies and a deffkopta or two?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They even TELL you how to make your army. They tell you what the Ork klans are - Bad Moons, Kult of Speed, Deffskullz, etc.

That kind of thematic army construction is the intent of the Ork codex. That is what makes orks powerful. The ork codex is written so that you can design an army list that is absolutely ridiculously powerful, but it is NOT made up of average Joe units; everything is specialized towards a specific goal. When you build an army list, you should follow the thematic advice given to you in the Codex. PICK a theme. There's a lot of them:

Green Tide. Mechanized Assault. Mechanized Shooting. Ork Gunline (Moar Dakka), Kan-Wall. Dreadz of Fury. Kult of Speed. Outflanking Goodness. Rebel Grotz. Nob Bikers. Super Units. Orky Burnas.

All of those things have something in common - the lists were designed with a theme in mind, and have the synergy to work together towards that goal. When you start combining those themes to make a list, you're being counterintuitive to the very style that the orks were created for.

Remember this: Orks can do anything that any other army can do, and they can do it better than that army. However, orks can only do it one at a time. You can outshoot a Tau Gunline. You can out-assault a khorne army or an army of genestealers. You can put down more templates than IG....whatever your goal in mind is....orks can do it better, but it has to stick to that theme. Orks are not meant to be universal, middle-of-the-line armies.

To give another analogy...if you've ever played an MMO, there are different classes. Fighter, Tank, barbarian, mage, cleric, wizard, hunter, ranger, red mage, death knight, rogue, whatever.....its all based on the game you play. The class you pick sets you on a path for the kind of game you play, the skills you get - they are pre-defined roles.

40k armies fit into that kind of typification. Except for Orks. Orks would be the generic class. You start with a neutral character, with skillpoints to assign, and you can make orks any kind of army you want them to be. People fail with orks because they want some of everything. Instead of making them a fighter, or an archer, or a guardian...and they would be better fighters, archers and guardians than every other type...they split points between all three to make a Figardian. F.A.G for short.

Do you want to excel in something, or be a F.A.G? That's what it boils down to.

Are you a F.A.G?

Here's a quick take on those various lists I mentioned. Please remember something important: Every list needs to be tailored for point allocations. What I'm putting down here is an "optimized" list where you get the maximum ability from it, so if you're playing a 1,000 point gunline, three full squads of Lootas + supporting units and troop choices isn't really what you're going to play. You'll have to tweak to match your needs.

Green Tide:
Green tide is actually an apocalypse battle formation, but is a common name for a foot-slogging ork army list. It consists of mobs of 30 shoota boys, a nob with a powerklaw, and either a unit of gretchin or a unit of boyz or 'Ard Boyz (maybe even with Mad Dok) screened across the front to give the rest of the army a 4+ cover save as they advance up the board.

Mechanized Assault:
12 slugga boyz+Nob/PK stacked into trukks, perhaps some battlewagons in the mix, covered by a Big Mek with a KFF...an elite unit or two (kommandos, lootas, burnas) tacked into the mix depending on your personal playstyle - they get into close combat as fast as orkishly possible; with Ghazghkull leading the mix, that's usually turn2.

Mechanized Shooting:
Instead of slugga boys, you have shoota boys, preferably in battlewagons, with a KFF screening them, rolling around the battlefield pouring firepower into enemy units. Alternatively, (and one of my favorite setups) this is 3 Loota squads inside battlewagons sitting on the back table edge, Big mek with KFF in the middle one in a trident formation \|/ to present front armor across the battlefield, surrounded by a unit of gretchin to prevent assaults on rear armor.


Ork Gunline:
Three squads of Lootas form the backbone of this, either sitting in cover or with a screening unit to give them a 4+ cover save, heavy support of big guns or some dreads/kans to provide long range firepower, with the obligatory shoota boy squads.


Kan wall:
One of the current meta-game favorites: Three squads of three killa-kans, protected by a KFF mek (or two) marching up the field screening mobs of shoota boys behind them.


Dreadz of Fury:
Three DeffDreads for Heavy Support + 2 Deff Dreads for troop choices, with a KFF mek screening them for a 4+ cover save, set for either long ranged fire support or close ranged pwnage; I prefer the STR10 DCCWs.


Kult of Speed:
Straight out of your codex! Boyz in trukks, mechanized element + Stormboyz. Ponder this for a moment: 6 trukks full of boyz screened by a Mek with a KFF, in turn screening 3 units of Stormboyz who can move as fast as the trukks moving flat out...that's a lot of fast moving destruction.

Outflanking Goodness:
Kommandos as elites and Deffkoptas as fast attack, as many of each as you can fit in, often with Deffkoptas equipped differently for wound allocation spread outflanking (unless you get turn1 and put your deffkoptas out for a turn1 turbo-boost).


Rebel Grotz:
Instead of six units of boyz, you get.....gretchin! Bwah ha ha. Not particularly scary in themselves, but using covering units or terrain, able to go to ground for a 3+ cover save, making them incredibly difficult to remove from an objective, especially with other gretchin (inside killa-kans) are krumping around the battlefield.

Nob Bikers:
Two warbosses + 20 nobs = 2HQ + 2Troops. 22 models = 1750. Diversified wargear and weaponry let you spread wounds around instead of removing models, and the unit is incredibly tough, has the ability to get anywhere fast, and kill anything fast.

Super Units:
Similar to Nob bikers in having an army with a low model count: Warboss Krumpmaster and the Megaboyz; a couple units of Meganobs, or my personal preference, units of regular nobs with diversified wargear for wound allocation magic - in vehicles!


Orky Burnas:
Start with three units of burna boys. Put them in battlewagons if you like. Mek with a KFF to screen if you do, and you have an army of combination templates / power weapons. Alternatively, a warboss makes nobs a troops choice, and you can give them all kombi-skorchas for some real carnage.


Battlewagon Spam:
Did you know that you can field 8 Battlewagons in a single army list? That's right...eight battlewagons. Three Heavy Support, Three dedicated transports for elite unit nobs, and two warbosses making two units of nobs troop choices so that you can take two more battlewagons. I think any time you have vehicles, you should have a KFF floating around, so I wouldn't advocate going for 8....but you can do a lot of things with a list of Battlewagons.

Dash, did you miss the part where he said that those are thw models he owns?

Whoa, Dash, just wondering, do you have that little speech saved in a Word document or something? I can swear I've seen it a few times before.

@ OP: Since you seem to have a limited pool of models, please put up what you own. That would help us immensely.

Wow, dashofpepper takes this sort of thing seriously. Didn't you hear, MementoMori? YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

Anyway, take what he says with a grain of salt, I'm sure he's very good at playing warhammer, but you don't need to get quite so into it. The list he suggested was a lot better than yours though!

I think you do need to have some more models to match your opponent's rather competitive IG list. Either get some more battlewagons, or a lot of killa kans and a dreadnought. Your HQ and the nobz are perfectly fine choices. So are lootas and boyz, but the boyz at least you will need more of. Looted wagons are generally acknowledged as crap, use them as trukks for the meantime.

So: you will need to buy more models. Start with a KFF mek and a warboss+nob squad. Add a load of boyz. Either put everything in battlewagons, so they can be covered by the KFF, or get a load of killa kans in front of the boyz, the kans are forcefielded and the boyz are screened by kans, so again everything has a 4+ cover save. If there are points left, support the army with lootas.

Ok, I have a question. How would the gretchin prevent a Mechanized outflank? Couldn't the Chimeras just tankshock them out of the way?

I ask because I tried this with some infantry, blocking off a flank from some hellhounds, but the IG player just tankschocked them and then melted them, along with the rest of my back field the next turn.

MM, this is an easy one to answer.

If you spread out your troops on either flank to screen against flankers, they would be stupid to tank shock you.

Why? Because the tank shocking vehicle STOPS when it encounters a target. If your little gretchin is near the board, the tank will be left with its ass hanging off the edge of the board. That means it dies

thedarksaint wrote:MM, this is an easy one to answer.

If you spread out your troops on either flank to screen against flankers, they would be stupid to tank shock you.

Why? Because the tank shocking vehicle STOPS when it encounters a target. If your little gretchin is near the board, the tank will be left with its ass hanging off the edge of the board. That means it dies

That is absolutely incorrect. The tank moves normally, the infantry take an LD test and get out of the way. Or tries a DoG. Which the Gretchin should, just for laughs.

That Copy paste is going straight to my harddrive. I've red something similar before, and I'm building my army following those rules, but that will take some time. Buying a large part of an army is something I can only do once in a year. Next month, I'm able to buy new stuff. And that will probably involve 30 stormboyz and 2 trukks. In the meantime however, I need to make do with what i've got. Deffkoptas would be more in-theme with a KoS list, but I've read that loota's are better in dealing with medium vehicles. Putting them in a cheap looted wagon keeps them fast enough to be a part of an evil sunz warband and increases their first turn survivability.