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OK, i'm coming up with a 2K army list for grey knights- i've never played 'em before, so feel free to tweak my force as much as you like.

HQ
Brother-Captain Stern 141 pts
retinue (10x GK termies)
incinerator
incinerator 500pts

Inquisitor lord
ss
hammerfist
artificier armour 80 pts
retinue (10 combat servitors, 1 familiar)
10 power fists 256 pts
chimera 70pts

Troops
5x grey knights
incinerator
incinerator 170pts

5x grey knights
incinerator
incinerator 170pts

5x grey knights
incinerator
incinerator 170pts

Elites
callidus assassin 120pts

Inquisitor
hammer fist
ss
teleport homer 50pts
retinue (5 combat servitors, 1 familiar)
5 power fists 131pts
rhino 50pts

Fast attack
5x grey knights
incinerator
incinerator 170pts

5x grey knights
incinerator
incinerator 170pts

total- 1997 pts
so...what do you think?

You are running alot of incinerators which i wouldnt advice using without giving your knights transports, i would drop a few incinerators and add some psycannons for added firepower, i like how your going grey knight heavy becuz when i made my first deamon hunters army i had alot of storm troopers which i find die alot, i would drop stern and use a brother captain instead that way you could upgrade him with more weapons and gear, as for the inquisitors retinue you cant have 10 servitors as you may only have 3 of each type of henchmen at the most

This has nothing to do with your amry list but Grey Knights are awesome.
Riddick40k is right on the money, stern is nice but is very steep.

Riddick40k wrote:You are running alot of incinerators which i wouldnt advice using without giving your knights transports, i would drop a few incinerators and add some psycannons for added firepower, i like how your going grey knight heavy becuz when i made my first deamon hunters army i had alot of storm troopers which i find die alot, i would drop stern and use a brother captain instead that way you could upgrade him with more weapons and gear, as for the inquisitors retinue you cant have 10 servitors as you may only have 3 of each type of henchmen at the most

all taken on board- this is my new updated list:

HQ

Grand Master
scourging
thunder hammer
storm shield
terminator armour 225pts
retinue- 5 GK termies
incinerator
incinerator 275pts
LR crusader 255pts

Inquisitor lord
hammerhand
artificier armour
storm shield 80pts
retinue-
3 combat servitors, 1 familiar, 3 alcolytes.
3 power fists
3 suits of power armour 126pts
rhino 50pts

Elites

Callidus assassin 120pts

Inquisitor
storm shield
hammerhand
artificier armour 55pts

Troops

9x GK's
incinerator
incinerator 260pts
rhino 50pts

9x GK's
incinerator
incinerator 260pts
rhino 50pts

Heavy support

GK purgation squad
4 incinerators 210pts
rhino 50pts

no termies ?

cheapbuster wrote:no termies ?

He's got retinue of termies, it's listed in HQ instead.

Grey knights terms are expensive

I was sure PAGKs couldn't take rhinos, only ISTs?

Shrike,
Welcome to the frustrating world of GK's. I love them, but they are extremely hard to be competitive with. The first thing I would do is read this: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214 Then you will have to make some difficult decisions. If you are really set on having an Inquisitor Lord and retinue, you need to know that they are not very good at close combat, so when I use them I set them up as a gunline(in cover for the 4+ save). The Callidus is fun and fairly effective, but you can normally take out one squad with LD 8 or less and then you will probably die. So here is my suggestion for 2000pts with and without the Lord and Callidus.

GK Grandmaster - Psycannon, Icon of the Just (Storm Shield only 4++ vs. 1 CC opponent and I would not give up his NFW, which ignores Eternal Warrior for a Thunderhammer)
GK Termie Retinue x 4 - 1 Psycannon, 1 Incinerator
GK LR Crusader

Inquisitor Lord - Artificer Armor, Psychic Hood, Psycannon
Heavy Bolter Gun Servitors x 3
Acolytes x 3 - Artificer Armor
Sages x 2 (+1 BS, re-roll 1 miss)
Mystics x 2 (anti-Deep Strike

Callidus Assassin

GK Justicar w/5 PAGK's - Psycannons x 2
GK Justicar w/5 PAGK's - Psycannons x 2

GK Justicar w/6 PAGK's - Incinerators x 2
GK LR - Extra armor

2000 Points on the nose.

"No Lord or Callidus"

GK Grandmaster - Psycannon, Icon of the Just
GK Termie Retinue x 4 - 1 Psycannon, 1 Incinerator
GK LR Crusader

GK Justicar - Targeter w/5 PAGK's - Psycannons x 2
GK Justicar w/5 PAGK's - Psycannons x 2
GK Justicar w/5 PAGK's - Psycannons x 2

GK Justicar - Melta Bombs w/7 PAGK's - Incinerators x 2
GK LR - Extra armor

GK Dreadnought - TL Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Extra Armor

Also 2000 points exactly. If you want a 2nd termie squad, take out the Dread and the PAGK Incinerator squad and you should be able to add a GK Brother Captain w/4 x Termies equipped like the GKGM's squad minus the Icon and still have some points left to maybe beef up the PAGK squads. Alternatively you can cut out the Dread and one of the PAGK Psycannon squads, bump the Incinerator squad to Justicar w/9 PAGK's and get a 3rd LR w/Extra Armor and still have a few points to spread around, like the GKGM w/chainfist. Chainfist is the one thing I would swap out on either the GKGM or GKBC for their NFW's if you play against Dread heavy lists. With GK's, 3x Land Raiders is never a bad move.

Good Luck and have fun.

The above bulid is good for pure GK Physic hood is a good buy and so is master crafted for GM, and ***Bionics (IMO)** its one last chance lol

But Holocaust is actually a great upgrade it is a 20pt blast template at the end of combat.

Ghostmaker is right about the Psychic Hood, I missed it when I took out the Inquistor Lord. Holocaust is great if you are in CC against a large mob,especially if they are T3, where you can get more kills with the template than with the 4x attacks with a S6 Power weapon.

You will see alot of bad games if you run either of your army lists or Heavymetal's list. (can't run a psycannon AND incinerator in a terminator retinue. You have no brother captain in a retinue. It's just standard termies therefore 1 weapon upgrade).

RULE #1

NEVER give up your NFW on your HQ. Pay 10pts for hammerhand and you have your thunderhammer if needed.

RULE #2

You need large squads of PAGKs. 5 doesn't cut it!

RULE #3

NEVER use fast attack PAGKs. They are garbage!



Here is a competitive list at 2000pts. You must take out troop transports first and ignore armor 13+.


HQ

Brother Captain Stern
141pts

TROOP

8 PAGK + Justicar
-2 psycannons
-melta bombs
305pts

7 PAGK + Justicar
-2 psycannons
275pts

7 PAGK + Justicar
-2 psycannons
275pts

ELITE

4 Terminators (deep striking with Stern)
-2 psycannons
-psychic hood

Inquisitor
-psycannon
-null rod
-power armor
80pts

Callidus Assassin
120pts

HEAVY

Dreadnought
-TL lascannon
-CCW
-heavy flamer
140pts

Dreadnought
-TL lascannon
-CCW
-heavy flamer
140pts

Land Raider
250pts


Total 2000pts



Grey Knights are not played like space marines. You never put in a crusader in a daemonhunter army w/ terminators as it will NEVER make it up the board. You just don't have enough vehicle support to do this.

You use your lascannons to open up troop transports (rhinos, chimeras, ie.) and then let your 24" stormbolters and 36" psycannons do their thing. The assassin comes in and can take out a squad easily herself.

You castle up your army. Landraider in middle, Dreads on either side of LR, squads next to dreads. Get the LR and Dreads in cover and you have hard units to kill.

If a transport gets too close for comfort you have all those psycannons to rip it down. 9 shots in the inquisitor's PAGK squad he's attached to or you move up your dreads to say hello!

And YES you always deepstrike GK terminators in cover to open up a 2nd front somewhere. But keep them away from your opponent. They are still a shooting squad so use that range. Then when you can move next turn you start thumping close to objectives. They are a distraction unit that is supposed to die eventually. In doing so they distract 50% of your opponents army away from your primary force and that's major!

Flyinmiata1 is correct on the 2 special weapons on the termies, sorry, haven't played my GK's much lately. I normally did not take the termies as a retinue, so I did have a GKBC with the GKGM attached, so I had the extra special weapon. For 4 more points, I personally prefer the GKGM over Stern, +1 wound, +1 attack and you can give him a psycannon, however you lose the master-crafted on Stern's NFW. Hammerhand vs. Chainfist, like I said in my earlier post, ONLY IF your local game group is Dread heavy and I personally like having the option of killing AV14. The LRC normally works nicely for me, turn 1, move 12" and either pop smoke(glancing hits only) or disembark 2" + 6" assault = 20" assault threat. It all depends on deployment The LRC has the assault vehicle rule and standard frag grenade launchers for assaulting into cover at initiative. And your opponent, like Flyinmiata1 said, is shooting most of his army at either the LRC or the termies, which leaves everything else free to kill transports. If you can assault into terrain and between shooting and CC wipe a squad and still be in cover, you have gained a KP and are still a major distraction. I do not like intentionally DS'ing into terrain, you can lose models via dangerous terrain tests, but it all depends on your play style. I am not against DS'ing, again, depends on the mission.

I think most GK players would have a minimum of 2 LR's and probably 3 at 2000 points. Two Godhammer LR's provide the same number of TL Lascannons as Flyinmiata1's list and can target the same number of tanks/transports, plus I never seem to do well with Dreads, AV12 and a good player will know they can kill them much easier than the LR and target them first. I completely agree with Flyinmiata1's target priority, kill the transports and like he said, let your psycannons and storm bolters eat. Besides a few things in play style, I don't disagree with Flyinmiata1's tactics. The only thing moving forward for me is my LRC, everything else sits and shoots.

I look at these lists and I'm thinking....yeesh! Pure GK's just don't cut it any more in 5th edition, especially footsloggin knights. You need to mech-up and add cheap scoring units in the form of IST's or inducted guardsmen (assuming you're using the actual codex instead of the online one). This is how I run my DH army:

GKGM - Icon, Incinerator - 190
4x GKT retinue, Incinerator - 199

5x PAGK's - 2x Incinerators - 170
5x PAGK's - 2x Incinerators - 170
5x IST's - 2x Meltas, Rhino w/EA+smokes - 128
5x IST's - 2x Meltas, Rhino w/EA+smokes - 128
5x IST's - 2x Plasmas, Rhino - 120
5x IST's - 2x Plasmas, Rhino - 120

GKLR - EA+smokes - 258 (PAGK's)
GKLR - EA+smokes - 258 (PAGK's)
GKLRC - smokes - 258 (HQ here)

Total - 1999pts

I've played with both full GK and full Inquisitor lists and usually get eaten up so you have to find that equal balence of both to be really effective

Yes to be much more competitive you will need to induct allies. BUT we are talking about a pure GK army jy2. I used to play 2 landraiders at 1500 and 3 at 2000pts. It's too much of a point sink for 6 shots. And yes I did the whole 2 incinerators in each land raider. Tank shock your opponent and burn away. You will play for a draw before you even start the game. You need firepower! not 6 shots per round.

Meching up is the exact opposite of what you want to do with Grey Knights. Remember these are NOT space marines and use the opposite tactics you would normally think to use. You have to throw as many shots as you can at your enemy, not hide in vehicles. Anything beyond 36" probably will not hit your PAGK so you don't need to worry about those lrg template 8str 3ap shots raining down on you. Once a squad gets inside your 24" stormbolter range it won't be pretty.

IST's = offensive unit. Since when did daemonhunters become an offensive army??? yes you have melta. Yes they are cheap scoring units. Which also equates to all of your enemy's tank killers take out those rhinos right away and leave your easily killed 5 ISTs on foot with 12" weapons. A smart opponent will IGNORE your land raiders and just focus fire on the rhinos that are easily popped. How long does 5 ISTs live on foot??? Bye bye all your troop choices and now you rely on moving your land raiders to do a job they aren't meant to do.

Incinerators while completely badass, only serve a purpose when facing daemons. Use shrouding and your 24" and 36" ranges to your advantage.


Bottom line to GKs is that you rely on the stormbolter, unit placement, and tactics to win your games. Play defensively and castle up!!! This is a shooting army so play like it. As much as the stats add up that they are kickass in assaults they MUST eliminate 50-60% of the squad BEFORE assaulting minimum. At 25 points a model you cannot afford to assault a squad at 70%+ strength and lose 2-3 knights in return.

Flyinmiata1
Agree with him totally I have gotten 2nd 2nd and 3rd with pure GK and DH at 3 different stores and tournaments. The only think is LR/LRC are only Anti Tank and reliable means to get there cause deep strike.... well gak happens. The dreadnoughts are good mobile platform but I have watched them die to quicker then a LR....LRC are kinda stupid in this army cause its anti horde which GK is meant to be.

On your list stupid question cause I do not remember but does stern have a physic hood? If not I would give that to IL that hood has saved my army on many occasions.

BTW never get rid of GM NFW it can insta kill everything still.

AS GK you are always outnumbered no matter what you have to play your army and actually think. :O

Flyinmiata1 wrote:Yes to be much more competitive you will need to induct allies. BUT we are talking about a pure GK army jy2. I used to play 2 landraiders at 1500 and 3 at 2000pts. It's too much of a point sink for 6 shots. And yes I did the whole 2 incinerators in each land raider. Tank shock your opponent and burn away. You will play for a draw before you even start the game. You need firepower! not 6 shots per round.

Same with all the competitive DH players. It used to be LR's and pure GK's. Now they've either had to alter their lists to include IST's/inducted guardsmen or shelf their GK's and play with their other armies until the new DH codex comes out.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:
Meching up is the exact opposite of what you want to do with Grey Knights. Remember these are NOT space marines and use the opposite tactics you would normally think to use. You have to throw as many shots as you can at your enemy, not hide in vehicles. Anything beyond 36" probably will not hit your PAGK so you don't need to worry about those lrg template 8str 3ap shots raining down on you. Once a squad gets inside your 24" stormbolter range it won't be pretty.

More dangerous than the Leman Russes raining down battle cannon shots are the meltavets in chimeras rushing towards you and nothing that you can do against their AV12 armor. Meanwhile, vendettas are shooting at you from 24"-30" and banewolves will just obliterate your knights. Stormbolter-spam only work against other foot armies. Against mech, it's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Furthermore, with LR's, you don't need to hide in them. You can still deploy outside of them and fire your stormbolters if needed.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:
IST's = offensive unit. Since when did daemonhunters become an offensive army??? yes you have melta. Yes they are cheap scoring units. Which also equates to all of your enemy's tank killers take out those rhinos right away and leave your easily killed 5 ISTs on foot with 12" weapons. A smart opponent will IGNORE your land raiders and just focus fire on the rhinos that are easily popped. How long does 5 ISTs live on foot??? Bye bye all your troop choices and now you rely on moving your land raiders to do a job they aren't meant to do.

Wrong. IST's in rhinos =/= offensive unit. They are mainly a support unit used to support your LR's and de-mech enemy transports. They act as a roadblock/screening unit if need be. You must be willing to sacrifice them, even in objectives games. That's why at 2K, I've got 6 troop choices. I only need the 2 squads of PAGK's in LR's to score. The IST's are to support the rest of my army. If the enemy wants to fire at my rhinos, so much the better. Let my LR's continue firing their lascannons or moving forwards. And I always hide 2 rhinos behind my LR's so they can't get shot at.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:
Incinerators while completely badass, only serve a purpose when facing daemons. Use shrouding and your 24" and 36" ranges to your advantage.

2 heavy flamers followed by assault with WS5/S6 marines is good against any infantry unit, especially after you tank shock them into the perfect formation for your flamers.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:
This is a shooting army so play like it. As much as the stats add up that they are kickass in assaults they MUST eliminate 50-60% of the squad BEFORE assaulting minimum. At 25 points a model you cannot afford to assault a squad at 70%+ strength and lose 2-3 knights in return.

Wrong. GK's is not a pure shooty army. Relying on those expensive psycannons to take down armor is fail. Pure GK's is a reactive army. LR's just gives you the flexibility of shooting the assaulty armies or rushing the shooty ones.

GK's need land raiders and IST's to help them succeed. Without those, they are mediocre at best and, assuming average rolls, cannot beat a mech army run by a decent player.

I really hope they will have a 5th edition codex for daemon hunters soon

I would LOVE to play you jy2...You go ahead and use GKs as an assault heavy army. I know you lose most of your games. Your tactics do NOT work. I have tried many tactics including yours. It is a fail 3/4 games.

You SHOOT your enemies to death with GKs.

Shrike, do not listen to this guy. He knows how not to play his army. 60% of his army is never in range to do anything...Enough said

While I'm probably not a great player, I consider myself competent enough. My DH record is 17W-8L-2D, with most of my losses coming from when I first started using DH before I started using land raiders. Tactics-wise, I loosely follow the Way of the Water Warrior tactica. You don't play GK's as a purely shooty nor a purely assaulty army. Instead, strategy-wise, you react to whatever your opponent brings. If he brings a "fire" list (mainly assaulty list), you mainly sit back and shoot him up and don't engage unless you can wipe out his unit or unless you absolutely must. If he brings an "earth" list (mainly a list that just sits back and shoots), then you become aggressive and go after him (you won't outshoot a shooty army). This strategy requires the use of land raiders to give you that flexibility that foot GK's just don't have.

And that was before 5th edition. Even now, just LR's are not enough. In my area, everyone and their sister's are packing melta. You need the extra bodies that are Inquisitorial stormtroopers and/or inducted guardsmen to support your GK army, threatening enemy tanks, acting as buffers/screening units and as additional scoring units.

Grand master
nemesis force weapon
ss
scouging (or hammerhand in a tank-heavy army)
termie armour 165/175pts

retinue
5 termies
holocaust
incinerator 280pts

Inquisitor lord
hammerhand
bolt pistol
ss 101pts

retinue
2 familiars
3 acolytes
3 warriors
meltagun
1 sage
1 suit of artificier armour
2 power swords 131pts

chimera 70pts

Inquisitor
artificier armour
ss
hammerhand
bolt pistol 56pts

retinue
1 familiar
1 warrior
1 sage
3 acolytes
1 suit of artificier armour
2 power swords 95pts

chimera 70pts

Inquisitor
artificier armour
ss
hammerhand
bolt pistol 56pts

same retinue as above 95pts

Callidus assassin 120pts

10x PAGK's
incinerator
incinerator 295pts

10 PAGK's
incinerator
incinerator 295pts

5x PAGK's
incinerator 160pts

total- 299pts