Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi All,
I've been playtesting these quick fixes which I believe bring Necrons somewhere near to their 4th Edition status. Do you think these are fairly reasonable tweaks given that I am keeping all points costs the same?

1. Any unit/model with the 'Necron' rule also benefits from the 'Stubborn USR'.

2. 'Gauss' weapons (in addition to their other rules) are now considered AP1 if a six is rolled either to wound or to penerate armour.

In the games I've had so far, it has made only a small difference, the biggest boost being given to warriors, who don't fall apart after being assualted by most opponents basic troops.

Additonal tweaks I have been considering is giving Wraiths and Flayed Ones the 'Rending' USR.

So far my opponents have been happy to accomodate these (Although I did have to suffer a Warhound in exchange during one game ).

#1 ok

#2 i dont know about ap 1, i think just changing to a pen instead of glance might be better

Sounds fair! As a hot-fix these seem unobtrusive and intuitive.

Edit: My bad, why do I keep thinking of glancing being -1 instead of -2

Making a 6 a pen makes the standard trooper TOO good against vehicles. Adding a simple +1 makes it so you can still destroy a tank, it's just harder. Helps mitigate some of the negatives of only being able to glance (turns the -2 to a -1... not that bad).

Giving Necrons some kind of incentive for CC survivability is always a plus. I've heard people want Flayed Ones as Troop options to help further boost Necron CC survivability.

Mahtamori wrote:

Edit: My bad, why do I keep thinking of glancing being -1 instead of -2

yeah me to!!! -1 instaed of -2 is good for me too.

In my group we play Necrons it with the following 'patch:

Models that are Necrons have the Stubborn USR.
- This one is obvious, it allows the Necrons to use their durability in close combat without having them ignore psychology. Which is in line with the background presented in their codex. (page 13, under Morale)

All vehicles count as open-topped for purposes of damage when glanced by Gauss & D-Fields
- This give Necrons the ability to destroy vehicles that they had when they were designed without double-penalizing open topped vehicles or giving Heavy Destroyers additional hitting power.
We have tried the variant with Ap1 on wound. It was found to be over-powered, repeatably, against anything that brought units smaller than 11.

All C'tan have the Eternal Warrior USR.
- ummm, Star God

Wraiths are fantastic as is, especially with majority toughness rules.
Flayed Ones are fine (with the Stubborn & D-field change) points and rules wise.
Their issue is that they compete with Immortals & Pariahs. If they where troops...

We have play tested this set for about a year, have not run into a serious conflict yet.

-edit- fixed typos

Funny, I've been saying necrons with stubborn is a great fix to make them more enjoyable to play as and against. And did play one game with them having stubborn (was actually a battle mission book game, one of the Chaos ones) and it worked out great.

Personally I think gauss weapons work fine the way they are now. It's already VERY easy to effectively limit the abilities of any vehicle so that they can't shoot or move/shoot pretty much every round. With the occasional lucky rolls of weapon destroyed results. But with how much fire you can pump into one vehicle you're bound to make it combat ineffective for at least a round if not more. Even if you don't destroy it, it's still one less thing to worry about for a certain amount of time.

I really like these proposals as simple changes that correct the two biggest play balance issues with necrons right now (the lack of variety in the codex is a whole other issue...)

Belphegor wrote:All vehicles count as open-topped for purposes of damage when glanced by Gauss & D-Fields
- This give Necrons the ability to destroy vehicles that they had when they were designed without double-penalizing open topped vehicles or giving Heavy Destroyers additional hitting power.
We have tried the variant with Ap1 on wound. It was found to be over-powered, repeatably, against anything that brought units smaller than 11.

What's the difference? Don't they both just add 1 to the damage table?

sebster wrote:I really like these proposals as simple changes that correct the two biggest play balance issues with necrons right now (the lack of variety in the codex is a whole other issue...)

Belphegor wrote:All vehicles count as open-topped for purposes of damage when glanced by Gauss & D-Fields
- This give Necrons the ability to destroy vehicles that they had when they were designed without double-penalizing open topped vehicles or giving Heavy Destroyers additional hitting power.
We have tried the variant with Ap1 on wound. It was found to be over-powered, repeatably, against anything that brought units smaller than 11.

What's the difference? Don't they both just add 1 to the damage table?

Its the AP1 counting against infantry that is overpowered. Hitting an open topped vehicle with a glance effectivley becomes penatrating (+1 open topped, +1 AP1, -2 Glancing = 0).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Played a 1500pts game today against IG and the 'All Vehicles Open topped' worked well, not too powerful, but not woeful like normal Necron antimech. Two vehicles destroyed outright, three more imobilised (1 crashed due to its speed), and one weapon destroyed.

I play Necrons and our House Rules for balance are similar to your proposal.

Warriors, Lords (not Destroyer Lods) and Immortals have Slow & Purposeful.

Flayed Ones as a Troops choice.

C'tan have Eternal Warrior.

Gauss and Disruption Fields replaced with Rending. It means that Warriors aren't going to go around killing AV 14 tanks but can still get penetrating hits on weaker vehicles and maybe destroy a couple, it also helps with the ridiculous amout of things with AS 2+ out nowadays are somewhat manageable without having to spam Heavy Destroyers.

Stubborn is an interesting idea, we balanced the CC penalties in 5th by making it so that any Necron unit that fails a Morale test, for any reason, is removed from play instantly as if Phasing Out and re-enters the board from Reserve the next turn automatically, WBB models are brought with same as if they were being pulled through a Monolith Portal except they don't get the extra chance to WBB.

We also gave Wraiths Power Weapons and the ability to WBB without others near them (same as a Lord) but made them an even 50 points.

It seems to have balanced out most of the problems in 5th.

Would you guys give wraiths power weapons or rending? I'm trying to figure out which would be more balanced (assuming either of them is) for a house rules patch. Any point adjustments would be fine, but since I only have so many models I'd like to keep the squad size the same.

PushStudios wrote:I play Necrons and our House Rules for balance are similar to your proposal.

Warriors, Lords (not Destroyer Lods) and Immortals have Slow & Purposeful.

What is the point of giving slow and purposeful to anything other than warriors?

id say rending for wraiths, power weapons might be over doing a little. but with the direction GW is going, overdoing it is the new standard

lowmanjason wrote:id say rending for wraiths, power weapons might be over doing a little. but with the direction GW is going, overdoing it is the new standard

Is it any more overdoing it than an entire 10 man squad of terminators all with power fists and str 8? Or str 4 reroll wound power weapons? Or stunning str 8 power weapons? 30 attacks (usually) on the charge compared to 12 and terminators get the option to have a ranged weapon as well.

I don't think it's overdoing it at all.

Given some of the codices lately, powering up a £12 ($19.20) model to excessive heights is about right. It wouldn't suprise me much if Wraiths came out of any new Necron codex looking like this:

Wraith
Squad 1-5 Wraiths @ 50pts Each
Fast Attack.
Type: Jetbike. WS4 BS4 S6 T5 W2 I6 A3 LD10 SV3+/3++.

Special Rules: Necron, Stubborn, Phase Shift, Wraith Flight, Phase Blades( ignores normal and invunerable saves).

If a 'Necron Wraith Lord' is taken as a HQ choice Wraiths may be taken as Troops Choices.

Sir Harry Flashman, VC wrote:Given some of the codices lately, powering up a £12 ($19.20) model to excessive heights is about right. It wouldn't suprise me much if Wraiths came out of any new Necron codex looking like this:

Wraith
Squad 1-5 Wraiths @ 50pts Each
Fast Attack.
Type: Jetbike. WS4 BS4 S6 T5 W2 I6 A3 LD10 SV3+/3++.

Special Rules: Necron, Stubborn, Phase Shift, Wraith Flight, Phase Blades( ignores normal and invunerable saves).

If a 'Necron Wraith Lord' is taken as a HQ choice Wraiths may be taken as Troops Choices.

Everything but the ignores inv saves and keep it T4 instead of T5 and I'd be ok with that.

Kevin949 wrote:

lowmanjason wrote:id say rending for wraiths, power weapons might be over doing a little. but with the direction GW is going, overdoing it is the new standard

Is it any more overdoing it than an entire 10 man squad of terminators all with power fists and str 8? Or str 4 reroll wound power weapons? Or stunning str 8 power weapons? 30 attacks (usually) on the charge compared to 12 and terminators get the option to have a ranged weapon as well.

I don't think it's overdoing it at all.

i agree about the terminators being over done, but lets face it, its for a marine army and no matter what the fluff says they will always get the best stuff. so GW can never go overboard with marines (one reason why i hate marines) but every other army "has to be balanced" IMHO

Kevin949 wrote:What is the point of giving slow and purposeful to anything other than warriors?

Basically its for fluff/thematic reasons and to prevent everything and it's dog from outpacing your Warriors.