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Could any experience BA player or anyone who knows about this tactic (RB/5RAS) to explain the reasoning behind this kind of play? I understand they have protection now instead of Jump packing around cover and they can move 18" instead now...but here are the questions I have about these sort of Mech lists:

*Sorry that there are so many questions, it's just I really think these lists look cool and would like to know more about them before I invest in buying all these RB's.*

1) Is there a reason to only field 5x RAS (regular assault squad) in the RB's? Why don't they go in 10s so you can have 2 Meltas or something per RB?

2) Some lists do a SGT with Power Fist in each RB and others go Melta and others do Flamers. What's the best way to equip these 5 man RAS units?

3) Why upgrade the RB's with TL-something? @ 11 armor sides and front theyll pretty much get shot down really fast then

4) With all these small squads how do you use them efficiently...Do you move all your RBs to the same location and swarm people with the RAS guys in 2-3 RBs? If you spread out your guys will only be attacking in groups of 5...

5) Why do most of these lists not have any Sang Priests? I've played with 10 man RAS units + Sang Priests and Sang Priests seem to give so much more to RAS units strengths.

6) Those experience with fighting or playing with this list what is the best heavy support/ fire support for them? Devastators? I have 1 Baal Pred right now and 1 Reg Pred. I'm thinking of convering the Reg Pred to a Baal and using 2x Baal Preds with TLAC + HB sponsoons.

7) Are RAS units + your support fire (Baals/Devs) enough? Almost none of these lists have any Elites anywhere. Some run 1 Dreadnaught or so but why nothing else? Terminators in LR, DC in RBs?

8) Last question I think... How do these lists cover objectives with no truely great range in the small 5 man RAS units. Swap in some Sniper Scouts or what?


Whoever helps me out thank you so much for your time. I know it's a lot of questions! >_<

1. Because they fit in a Razorback and they're cheap, and they have space for an accompanying Independent Character.

2. It depends on what the unit's task is. Units are specialized for specific tasks like anti-horde, anti-tank, or what have you.

3. Heavy Bolters are nice for being cheaper than dirt and the default weapon, but the list depends on being able to read out and touch someone as soon as the Razorback is deployed.

4. Again, this depends on the enemy. Basic small unit tactics.

5. Essentially a co-ordination problem. The Sanguinary Priest is pretty expensive, especially if you're not all crammed together for Battlecannon fodder, and for the additional cost you might as well have another squad or Razorback.

6. Predators. Three Baal Predators in Fast Attack, three classic Predators (Autocannon and side Lascannons) in Heavy Support.

7. Some people seem to think so, that by flooding the field with armoured targets they will be able to overwhelm the enemy's ability to handle them all, particularly fielding six Predators. This is a hilarious fallacy, but interesting nonetheless.

8. They don't, they need to table the opposition first and then land whatever they have left on the objectives.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/310291.page

That's a link to my BA Razorback list. RAS in Razorbacks are awesome because you essentially get 'free' assault cannons once you factor in your discount, moving 18", popping smoke. Next turn, disembarking 2", move 6" and then charge 6" coupled with the Furious Charge from the Sanguinary Priest pretty much guarantees a Turn 2 assault (32" move in total).

I did originally have a unit of Scouts to hold home objectives, but at 100pts they're quite a points sink for a unit that'll be 'Going to Ground' the entire game. I thought a second Librarian to supplement an RAS was a better option.

Nurglitch has, in essence, answered all your questions fairly well. Razorback spam is pretty fun; a complete and utter glass cannon of an army, but something unique and fun to play.

L. Wrex

@Nurg/Lycaeus: Thanks for your help guys! Dumb of me to ask that first question. Meant to say why take RB over Rhino and put 10 RAS in a Rhino over 5 in a RB but I'm assuming it's weapon choices.

From what I have been reading with this army mech style for BA is that it's pretty good but how the heck does it wipe the enemy if all it's squads are only 5? Any tactica or advice behind that? Or does it rely all on it's dred/baals to do all the dirty work?

Anyone have any other advice or tips on this type of mech BA tactic? Generally is it competitive or for more casual players? I normally play vs Chaos/Orcs/Tyranids/Dark Eldar.

Also, why do most RB's choose the Assault Cannon of TL LasCannons...?

Syypher
I don't play blood angels very much but I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge....

1. the small assault squads are an extension of a more general strategy called Multiple Small Unit. There are alot of tactical reasons why it's better to have two squads of 5 guys than it is to have 1 squad of 10 guys, and so on. Basically it has to do with improved flexibility. Since razorbacks are so strong, the 5 guys inside of it can end up being almost besides the point. If people could bring razorbacks without bringing marines, believe me, they would do it.

2. the best way to equip your razorback squad depends on
how you answer the question: "what do I want to kill?" look at your local tabletops, figure out what the most threatening units - that are seeing regular use - are, and build to kill them. Alternately look at what the total capabilities of your army are, and build based on that. For instance if you're running 8 razorbacks with heavy flamers and only 2 meltaguns you probably need the extra meltas more than the extra flamers. I would not take plasmaguns. It's the only special weapon that prevents you from charging after shooting it. Don't take a power fist; 25 points per man is not cheap for wargear, it's only really useful against a few select targets, and you have a good chance of getting wiped before you can swing with it. It's better to just accept that if you get in close combat with certain kinds of units you're going to lose the squad, and play so as to avoid those situations, than it is to squander 100+ points on "insurance."

3. the reason to upgrade the heavy bolter that comes standard is that, though they are cheap, they aren't particularly good at anything. you don't want to spam guns that are so-so - you want to spam guns, like flamethrowers or lascannons, that are good at killing their intended targets. To me it's almost always worth the upgrade to buy a gun that is consistently effective, as opposed to taking a cheaper and less effective option. Consider, for instance, the likely results of shooting 5 twin linked heavy bolters at a squad of guardsmen in cover, vs. shooting 3 twin linked heavy flamers. The flamers pay for themselves by being dramatically more effective against their intended target.

4. As a general rule you always want to concentrate your forces, so that your units can support each other and you can strike as heavy a blow as possible. Don't send off detachments unless you're on a suicide mission, where you're looking to kill a more valuable unit than the one you're giving up, or unless it's late in the game and you want to hold an objective.

5. Most blood angels armies have sanguinary priests becasue they turn your average joe marine into a rampaging, unstoppable psychopath. At 18 points a piece a marine with feel no pain, furious charge, and 2 attacks base is an insanely good buy. Canny blood angels players will distribute their priests so that they're hard for the opponent to kill and so that they're always covering as many friendly marines as possible with their special power. It's the effect of the sanguinary priest, combined with the army's excellent mobility, that makes Blood Angels the premeir marine army right now.

6. The Baal predator is an awesome tank. You should definitely use it. Devestators are marginal because they don't take advantage of how awesome blood angels are up close, they tend not to benefit from the presence of sanguinary priests, and they don't take advantage of your codex's superior mobility. Anything you can kill with a heavy weapon you can kill with an assault weapon, and there's no reason that you, as a blood angels player, should be afraid to get in your opponent's face. Blood Angels fear no one in close assault. No one.

7. The lists don't have *squads* of elites for a couple reasons. One is that sanguinary priests and chaplains are both strong elite choices, so terminators sternguard etc are competing with them for those spaces. The other is that your average joe blood angel marine is about elite as they come already. They're cheaper, they're scoring, and they just don't need the help.

8. your basic blood angel is scoring and has all the capabilities you need. This army should have zero trouble holding objectives.

AF

Auto cannons are what the razorback offer. The assault squad offers it cheaper than the tact squad and you can still take a special weapon with 5 models. Auto cannons are a blood angels bread and butter. try and pack as many in as you can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if you combat squad a unit of 10 you can take 2 razorbacks per unit!

stu192 wrote:Auto cannons are what the razorback offer. The assault squad offers it cheaper than the tact squad and you can still take a special weapon with 5 models. Auto cannons are a blood angels bread and butter. try and pack as many in as you can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if you combat squad a unit of 10 you can take 2 razorbacks per unit!

1) I'm pretty sure you mean "Assault Cannon" and not auto cannon since the Razorback can't buy an autocannon of any sort.

2) A 10 man squad can still only buy one dedicated transport so one Troop choice can never have two Razorbacks dedicated to it.

syypher wrote:
1) Is there a reason to only field 5x RAS (regular assault squad) in the RB's? Why don't they go in 10s so you can have 2 Meltas or something per RB?

They can only hold 6 anyway and so its 5 men + 1 IC.

2) Some lists do a SGT with Power Fist in each RB and others go Melta and others do Flamers. What's the best way to equip these 5 man RAS units?

Melta --> Quick anti-tank/MC in a pinch
Plasmagun --> Generally not worth it as each RB should be Las/TL Plas
Flamer --> Quick anti-horde in a pinch
PF --> I dont like it because its 25 points and you dont even want to get out of your transports unless you have to

I would say over 5 Razorbacks you should run 3 with meltas and 2 with flamers.

3) Why upgrade the RB's with TL-something? @ 11 armor sides and front theyll pretty much get shot down really fast then

Because Heavy Bolters are useless. And you will be gunning down things better than any other opponent (sans guard).

4) With all these small squads how do you use them efficiently...Do you move all your RBs to the same location and swarm people with the RAS guys in 2-3 RBs? If you spread out your guys will only be attacking in groups of 5...

For the first 2-3 turns you sit on your table edge and gun things down. Then move in and tank shock to contest and control objectives. Dont get out of the transports ever if you dont really need to.

5) Why do most of these lists not have any Sang Priests? I've played with 10 man RAS units + Sang Priests and Sang Priests seem to give so much more to RAS units strengths.

You dont care about RAS, you just care that its a troops choice inside a tank with two good guns on it. You would never need Sang Priests.

6) Those experience with fighting or playing with this list what is the best heavy support/ fire support for them? Devastators? I have 1 Baal Pred right now and 1 Reg Pred. I'm thinking of convering the Reg Pred to a Baal and using 2x Baal Preds with TLAC + HB sponsoons.

Generally Double or Triple Vindicators and 1-2 Baals

7) Are RAS units + your support fire (Baals/Devs) enough? Almost none of these lists have any Elites anywhere. Some run 1 Dreadnaught or so but why nothing else? Terminators in LR, DC in RBs?

I HATE running LR. You put it on the board and first turn something deep stikes with anywhere from 2-5 meltaguns and blows it to crap. And yes it is enough.

8) Last question I think... How do these lists cover objectives with no truely great range in the small 5 man RAS units. Swap in some Sniper Scouts or what?

What are you talking about? By turn 5 your opponent will be shot to crap and you have 5 Troops that can tank shock/move 18" to control objectives, and a total of 4-5 Baals/Vindicators (minus what died) that can go 18" and contest. No one cares by that point. Remember, even a Tac Squad killed down to a single man can capture an objective.

Thanks for everyones input and replys.

@zeekill: When you say "Then move in and tank shock to contest and control objectives." do you mean tank shock then disembark and contest? I played objective my first time this last week and they said I couldn't contest with any transports. Is that wrong or can I if I tank shock?

Also when you say "By turn 5 your opponent will be shot to crap and you have 5 Troops that can tank shock/move 18" to control objectives" how do you effectively move 18" to control an objective? Do you mean move 12" with RB and disembark then move 6" with RAS?

Sorry for the dumb questions. I appreciate all the help I'm getting and it's really making me feel more comfortable going this mech route that I think looks really cool

syypher wrote:@zeekill: When you say "Then move in and tank shock to contest and control objectives." do you mean tank shock then disembark and contest? I played objective my first time this last week and they said I couldn't contest with any transports. Is that wrong or can I if I tank shock?

Also when you say "By turn 5 your opponent will be shot to crap and you have 5 Troops that can tank shock/move 18" to control objectives" how do you effectively move 18" to control an objective? Do you mean move 12" with RB and disembark then move 6" with RAS?

You can hold objectives with transports if there's a scoring unit inside it.

Blood Angels have fast razorbacks, so they can go up to 18 inches in one movement phase.

Thanks for the quick reply Walrus. I didn't know the first half but I knew the second half. You can't deploy though or shoot if you move 18" :(

syypher wrote: I played objective my first time this last week and they said I couldn't contest with any transports. Is that wrong or can I if I tank shock?

Just to clarify, any unit in the game can contest an objective (baring some specific special rule) but only scoring units can actually capture them. So if you have a Razorback + (BA) Assault Squad (inside is fine, you measure to the hull of the transport, and its the way to go as its far safer) claiming an objective I can boost up a Land Speeder or something next to that objective and it would count as contested, but if your units weren't there then that Land Speeder does nothing (as it can't actually claim the objective).

Thanks! That'd be really helpful to know that