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In the fluff, this is supposed to be its own unique STC, yet at the moment it's basically just an overpriced Razorback. Would be nice to see it made into something more unique, or at least worth its added cost (an Immolator with TL Heavy Bolters costs about thirty points more than a Razorback with the same weapons, despite bieng effectively the same vehicle).

Simply lowering its price would be one solution, yet that feels rather cheap-- it IS supposed to be its own unique kind of vehicle, after all.

Another solution (one I favor) is to give it AV12 front armor, putting it at 12/11/10, this makes it feel like it is actually a different chassis or at least a different design. Yet even then it's still not necessarily that good, when compared to a Chimera-- which is 12/10/10 with two weapons and the ability to transport six more models than the Immolator, while STILL being cheaper.

The Immolator's ability to move 12" and fire its heavy flamers mitigates this somewhat ,yet that's only a single weapons loadout, meaning any other choice of weapons means it still feels overcosted for what it does. Adding another weapon would make it feel too much like a Chimera. So instead, I think the better solution would be to make this move and fire ability work regardless of its weapon output.

So, without any other adjustments (aside from the standard smoke+searchlights on all 5th Ed. Imperial transports), here's my ideas:

1: Increase Front Armor to 12, add special rule: Fast Vehicle, remove Twin Heavy Flamers special rule.
2: Increase Front Armor to 12, change Twin Heavy Flamers rule to Mobile Accuracy, "May fire its turret weapon even if it has moved 12" this turn."

The former is simpler, yet making it a fast vehicle might be too much (giving it 6" extra movement, an unintended side effect). I feel the latter is more balanced.

If Immolators are usually used in tandem with the fast attack Battle sisters special weapons squad, whose name I can't remember for the life of me, then I agree that the second option is more balanced and fluffy, as it gives the squad more maneuvrability whilst still being able to pump out shots.

This is coming from someone with no experience of playing or dealing with Sisters (wow, how wrong did THAT sound?), however.

How would making the front armor thicker make sense if it's also faster?

Fast vehicles are generally light-skinned unless you're talking about Eldar, and they're the "undisputed masters of anti-grav gubbinz" IIRC.

I think just making them fast would justify the point cost. The BA fast vehicles are rather expensive too.

What if it had :
Mobile Firepower
Immolators count as fast vehicles for determining what wepons they can fire.

IE a multi tracker from the tau codex.

Seems like it could work. I never understood why it wasn't more like a predator than a razorback.

The exorcist is grossly expensive. It should be:

13/11/10
Exorcist Missiles,* Heavy bolter sponsons or Heavy flamers*, smoke launchers, searchlight.
100 points + 25 for sponsons

The immolator is cool too. I agree than it should be a fast tank though. It should be better than the hellhound, IMO.

Monster Rain wrote:How would making the front armor thicker make sense if it's also faster?

You mean like BA Predators (Fast, FA13) and Hellhounds (Fast, FA12)?

Why not both?

Melissia wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:How would making the front armor thicker make sense if it's also faster?

You mean like BA Predators (Fast, FA13) and Hellhounds (Fast, FA12)?

And Priced accordingly, I should say. They're also an exception. Other Space Marines fast vehicles are rather fragile.

Exorcists are AP1, btw. That makes a slight difference in how it should be priced.

Yes, and Immolators are quite expensive for a 6-person transport with a simple TL heavy weapon. The Predator has AV13 armor and the option for sponsons as well as better mounted weapons, and the hellhound and variants have better weapons and the option for a multi-melta as well.

Keep in mind that these units-- including the Exorcist-- are still using third edition prices. They aren't balanced for fifth by any means. It might be AP1, but it's still only S8, and therefor it cannot reliably harm AV14 vehicles. Each shot has a 2/3rds chance of hitting, then a 1/6th chance of glancing, then a 1/6th chance of destroying. Which adds up to a <2% per shot, meaning on average if an Exorcist fired fifty shots, one of them would destroy the AV14 armor.

Why does the exorcist have to be able to destroy av 14 though?

SamplesoWoopass wrote:Why does the exorcist have to be able to destroy av 14 though?

That's what melta is for, no?

My thoughts exactly. I mean, a bolter can't break av 14, doesn't mean it's over priced. Just serves a different role.

Monster Rain wrote:

SamplesoWoopass wrote:Why does the exorcist have to be able to destroy av 14 though?

That's what melta is for, no?

Melta doesn't work against all vehicles, and it requires you to get very close to the unit you're attempting to destroy to begin with.

The Exorcist is an anti-tank vehicle. It's the ONLY anti-tank vehicle Sisters have at the moment, so I would think it should excel at that role.

Melta is the best thing most armies have against AV14.

It's supposed to be hard to kill.

Melissia wrote:The Exorcist is an anti-tank vehicle. It's the ONLY anti-tank vehicle Sisters have at the moment, so I would think it should excel at that role.

The list of things better then the Exorcist at antitank is not very big, it can kill the highest AV in the game (thanks to AP1) and gets more shots then any other dedicated anti-tank platform.

As to the Original premise posted, I have no issue with reworking the Immolator, but I would observe that it is already better then a Razorback so it ought to be priced accordingly.

Jack

On that same note, just because it's your only anti tank vehicle doesn't mean it should sweep everything off the board with total ease.

Thats like saying that veteran guardsmen should be able to sweep everything off the board.

Captain Solon wrote:Thats like saying that veteran guardsmen should be able to sweep everything off the board.

Oh you're one to talk.

Jackmojo wrote:it can kill the highest AV in the game (thanks to AP1)

A 1/54 chance of destroying a vehicle per shot is effectively a non-chance.

As for number of shots, it fires d6, which means it has on average 3.5 shots.

And you would seriously say that an Immolator with TL Heavy Bolters is better than a Razorback with TL Heavy Bolters? Yes, it is slightly better with the TLHF (personally, I'd go with the cheaper vehicle, so that I could have more of them instead), but that is only a single weapons loadout and the benefit you get from having TLHFs does not apply to the other two weapons you may have on its turret.

I remind you that this vehicle was created and costed for third edition, not fifth.

Melissia wrote:

Jackmojo wrote:it can kill the highest AV in the game (thanks to AP1)

A 1/54 chance of destroying a vehicle per shot is effectively a non-chance.

As for number of shots, it fires d6, which means it has on average 3.5 shots.

Is there another tank that gets an average of 3.5 S8 AP1 shots? That's pretty Damn good.

Predator with autocannon and lascannon sponsons does roughly the same thing, only cheaper and better (more reliable number of shots, S9 against heavier armor).

Remember, 3.5 on average, still means you're going to be rolling 1s and 2s when when you least need them (and you never need them).

AV14 targets are first of all few and far between and second balanced by one thing or another. If you don't think you can kill it head on then move around to the side of it, if you're fighting a Necron Monolith then you're not supposed to shoot at the monolith anyway because it's not the thing that will cause the army to phase out. You seem to be falling for this 'psychhammer' effect that seems to be more prevalent in 5th edition then it has been before.

This Exorcist can reliably break up %80 of the armor in the game including FW units with the ability to switch to anti-Heavy Infantry using the same weapon load out, that versitility isn't found in very many units in WH40K.

@ Luke_Prowler: Ease up on Solon, he's learned a lot.

Melissia wrote:Predator with autocannon and lascannon sponsons does roughly the same thing, only cheaper and better (more reliable number of shots, S9 against heavier armor).

Remember, 3.5 on average, still means you're going to be rolling 1s and 2s when when you least need them (and you never need them).

It also means you'll be rolling 5s and 6s.

Maybe my lack of sympathy comes from being a long time Necron player... My best ranged anti-tank is on my Destroyers. Anyway, good luck with the rest of your thread. I'll stop being OT now.

And whoever said Necrons don't need to be updated? Certainly not I. You can go over there and make your own thread about Necrons now, shoo shoo

ComputerGeek01 wrote:AV14 targets are first of all few and far between.

Apparently you haven't played against a Guard army.

@Melissa: I AM a Guard player! The LR variants that you mention are pretty specific in the role they play in the battle field. I can tell you that even though the option to field a number of them is there we would be sacrificing more able units for it. I personally don't field any of the avalible AV14's because the one point of armor has never been a make or break the game issue for me when I throw down a few LRBT's and put the points I save else where.

Now if you are complaining because we can squad up an AV14 with those more able units to soak shots (formally known as a chedder block) then yes this is a very powerful ability but it costs A LOT of points (and a noticible amount of cash) relative to other options we have. And with the way damage allocation works this is negated by the fact that unlike the Lascannon or Melta or a dozen other weapons you Exorcist cannon can hit all of the tanks in that sqaud in the same round of firing.

EDIT: I'll also add that NONE of the things I mentioned stop you from FLANKING the chedder block or how about assaulting it with Melta charges and\or power weapons like every other army in the game does? Like I said above this is psych-hammer. Also I forgot to mention I like you changes to the Immolator, I agree it should be more like a Hellhound then a Razorback.

Not really. One can have six Leman Russ Battle Tanks with hull lascannons in a 2k Guard army and easily have enough points to pay for a good amount of troops (I can probably whip up a list with 6 russes and 100+ Guardsmen, including heavy weapons-- more if I drop the lascannons on the Russes). While it might be expensive money-wise, I don't think dollar cost should effect balance.

You're right, but 2K points is NOT a small game. I know there is a curve to every army but I didn't think the SoB's fell apart in regards to anti-tank options so quick.

To continue on this discussion it would derail into Tactica, so I will say that the Exorcist has a role for anit-medium armor AND anti-Heavy Infantry which is rare and makes it worth taking. You aren't supposed to attack anything AV14 head on.

And in many places, 2k points is a standard game, therefor I deal with that points level.

You're just making excuses for the lack of balance in the game. Furthermore, I haven't actually suggested any changes to the Exorcist in this thread anyway because this thread is not about Exorcists.

Melissia wrote:A 1/54 chance of destroying a vehicle per shot is effectively a non-chance.

As opposed to a Space Marine Lascannon, which are only 1/27, but aren't generating 3.5 shots per turn?

Melissia wrote:And you would seriously say that an Immolator with TL Heavy Bolters is better than a Razorback with TL Heavy Bolters?

Clearly, the Immolator gets a firepoint and the Razorback does not. So different point costs aside it is indeed better

Melissia wrote:I remind you that this vehicle was created and costed for third edition, not fifth.

I think it was probably priced correctly (in relation to the Razorback) when it cost 5 points more for an identical weapon set and stats it was probably about right. If it comes in at 40 in the next iteration with not other changes I'd not object to it in the least.

Now if you want to propose something more interesting for it that's fine, and certainly if it were to get a non-rhino model some changes in stats would be expected.

Jack

What about using faith points to ignore shaken/stunned results?

That would be pretty dope.