Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just want to make sure I understand this. A Krak grenade is essentially a Strength 6 AP- close combat weapon. So a full squad of 10 Space Marines assaulting a Chaos Dreadnought have 10 attacks (each model only gets one attack with a krak grenade so the seargent only has one attack), and in the assault they are attacking the rear armor of 10 on the dread. Each attack is 6 + D6 (rather than attackers ST + 6 + D6).

If this is correct (6 + D6 AP-) it looks like the dread is going to have some negative effect about 90% of the time.

1. Resolve attacks against walkers against their front armour.

2. Second parenthesis should read "(rather than attackers ST + D6)".

3. About the math....I don't know. Haven't run the numbers.


Yep, aside from the above mentioned you seem to have grasped the rules correctly.

Thanks, I missed the part about the front armour against walkers.

I just wanted to confirm that you do not get to add the attackers ST then add 6 then add a D6. (that does seem like too huge of an advantage).

Even with 6 + D6 vs front armour of 12 on a regular dread, I suspect against 10 marines the dread is in for some negative effect between 80 ~ 85% of the time.

I ran the numbers, and it doesn't look good. "Shaken" has no effect on a dread in CC, therefore if we calculate discounting it..

Single krak average number of stunned -immobilized results:

(1/6 * 1/6 * 3/6) =3/216 = 1/72

Krak can't realistically deal with dreads.

edit: oops I did it with S8. correction inc.

Grenades hit mobile unstunned walkers on a 6 and you only get one grenade attack per model. Ignore attacks characteristic, ignore all bonus attacks. In this case the ten marines get to roll a total of 10 dice, needing a 6 to hit. Against front AV12 they then need a 6 to score a glancing hit. As close combat attacks the grenades aren't Ap-, they just don't have an Ap stat so they don't get a column shift either way for that. Results 1-3 on a glancing hit do nothing useful. Result 4 also does nothing useful if the walker has extra armor. Have fun with that.

I second Raxmei. Its not the walker who is into a negative effect, its that puny Tac squad

Aye. Krak grenades allow you a chance to hurt them and are better than nothing, but best of all is to not get charged by a dread. The Sergeant should have a Power Fist if you expect to hunt walkers.

Wow, I see what you mean. The Marines do not have much of a chance. So why do the rules say "Infantry can pose a grave threat to vehicles if they get close enough" (5th page 63). Sounds like unless the vehicle armor is 10, the infantry really does not have much of a chance, with the one possible exception being the power fist.

GiveMeMyPizza wrote:Wow, I see what you mean. The Marines do not have much of a chance. So why do the rules say "Infantry can pose a grave threat to vehicles if they get close enough" (5th page 63).

Perhaps because a Walker is a very specific subset of Vehicle? Against most vehicles your infantry will get to hit the rear armor and tanks can't even hit back. A grave threat indeed for anything except a Land Raider (or Monolith if you have museums nearby).

Walkers are the exception for vehicles - they turn and face you, hence you hit the front armour. Otherwise hitting the rear armour, and potentially autohitting (something you never do with a walker) IS a grave threat.

Kraks are good against non-walker vehicles with Rear AV10.


Grenades in general, even the mighty Melta bomb, are pretty useless against walkers. PFs are better.


that said, Grenades are always cheap(or included in the package) so if you have a few extra points....

Grey Templar wrote:even the mighty Melta bomb, are pretty useless against walkers.

How's that? I fail to see how a meltabomb isn't a valuable asset against a walker.

Grey Templar wrote:PFs are better.

Except that unlike a meltabomb, you're hitting at I1, which means the walker could in fact kill you before you get to smack it with the pfist, and even then, both meltabombs and pfists hit at S8 for Marines, and pfists are usually S6 for IG. I fail to see how pfists are better against walkers than meltabombs.

It's not that the Melta Bombs are 'useless'. It's that they are unreliable vs. Walkers because you have 1 attack that needs 6's to hit a mobile Walker.
Again, kraks are better than nothing really.

I've used plenty of krak grenades recently... although not ideal, it can do a great deal of damage en mass.

Fair 'nough.

SaintHazard wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:PFs are better.

Except that unlike a meltabomb, you're hitting at I1, which means the walker could in fact kill you before you get to smack it with the pfist, and even then, both meltabombs and pfists hit at S8 for Marines.

But if it's a Sarge with a fist he can't be singled out. And he'll get more attacks (at WS vs WS too!) than he'd do with a grenade even if he didn't charge.

Krak grenades are a "last resort" versus walkers; your tac squad is pretty hosed at this point. Against normal vehicles, especially non-moving/immobilized ones, they are an asset against anything south of a land raider.

Fist vs meltabomb depends a lot on what you're fighting. Fist always gets two to three times as many attacks. Against walkers it hits on WS, making it three or four times more likely to hit than a melta bomb. Melta bomb hits are more dangerous but not six times more dangerous unless we're talking an AV14 walker or something, which neither one would be at all happy to be facing. Against conventional tanks the two have equal chances of hitting, so it's a simple matter of whether the power of a single melta attack is greater than two or three individually weaker powerfist attacks. Melta bomb definitely wins against Land Raiders and the fist probably wins against most other tanks. And of course there's Death or Glory, where the melta bomb is clearly the power fist's superior. And then for things that aren't vehicles you can't use the bombs at all and so on.

Infantry do pose a threat to quite a few vehicles if they have kraks.
However, walkers tend to move out of this list due to attacking a 12+ front armour most of the time.

for basic transports your looking at AV10 rear, so it can work fine at times.



Still better off with a melta from a few inches or a power fist though to make sure.
Cant rely on krak grenades much.

Forgive me for I do not have my rulebook handy (at work, ssshh), but I've heard mentioned in the thread that you need a 6 to hit a non-immobilized walked with grenades. Why no WS comparison? Is it an application of the 'hitting a vehicle based on its movement' rule?

It is a special rule for walkers, and only for grenades.

Being prepared for fighting Walkers is usually why I choose Power Fists over Power Weapons. They're more expensive, but are a lot more versatile and efficient at killing other models in general.

Also note that krak is not AP-, this would net it a -1 on the vehicle damage table.

Rather, grenades have no AP at all (not the same thing as AP-)

No close combat attack has an AP value.

otherwise there would be little point in killing vehicles in CC at all(even MCs would get -1)

Fiend wrote:Forgive me for I do not have my rulebook handy (at work, ssshh), but I've heard mentioned in the thread that you need a 6 to hit a non-immobilized walked with grenades. Why no WS comparison? Is it an application of the 'hitting a vehicle based on its movement' rule?

I was wondering the same thing. Dread has a WS so wouldn't it compare WS to WS to hit?

Special rules for walkers. I don't have the rulebook either, but it's in the walker entry, similar to lines of the dread being a mobile target and that the kraks/melta bombs need to be affixed to the hull, rather than just thrown at it, IIRC.

Page 73.

Sanctjud wrote:Special rules for walkers. I don't have the rulebook either, but it's in the walker entry, similar to lines of the dread being a mobile target and that the kraks/melta bombs need to be affixed to the hull, rather than just thrown at it, IIRC.

Ah, makes sense. Especially since those walkers are so mobile. Thanks.

In that case, I'd vote that grenades are gak against walkers. Especially AV12 walkers (i.e. dreads). 1 attack, 6 to hit, 6 to glance? No thanks. Use PFs, preferably more than one.