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Dusting off my CSM for a while since it seems like no one is playing them these days. I know that they're not that hot right now, but it seems like it'll be fun for a while. What sort of options are available to a competitive CSM list? Dual Lash/9 Oblits just doesn't seem like it has the resilience or hitting power to cope with BA/SW/IG at this point (maybe I'm wrong but I hope not since that army is boring as hell). I've been messing around with a few different lists going Dual Lash, just one Lash, and none at all. I still seem to keep settling on running 2 Sorc/Princes with Lash as the power is just so strong that it is really ahrd to say no to. This is roughly what I'm looking at so far:

Daemon Prince: Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Lash
Sorceror: Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Lash

5x Chosen: 4x Plasma Gun, 1x Powerfist, Rhino
5x Chosen: 4x Flamer, 1x Powerfist, Rhino

5x Plague Marines: 2x Melta, 1x Champ/Power Fist, Rhino
5x Plague Marines: 2x Melta, 1x Champ/Power Fist, Rhino
8x Khorne Berserkers: 1x Champ/Power Fist

3x Obliterators
3x Obliterators
Land Raider: Extra Armor

IMO, swap the Sorceror for a second DP.

The points you spent on that Raider would be better spent on another squad of Berzerkers, and Rhinos for both of them IMO.

I would swap out the powerfists for power swords to got the Init. I do not care for plasma and use melta guns, and I usually take 1 squad of 3 Oblitorators so trade them for more armor and your Bezerkers need a rhino. I would take those 5-man squads out and get full 10-man squads to make them more effective they will not last long in a firefight.

Well, in fact, I'd consider a winged DP instead of a Sorcerer.
The ancient Landraider can become a liability. The points can be spent better elsewhere,
particularly as you have 2 lashes available.

I'm not a big fan of Lash DPs, sorcerers have the ability to hide in squads (like those plauge marines).

wuestenfux wrote:Well, in fact, I'd consider a winged DP instead of a Sorcerer.
The ancient Landraider can become a liability. The points can be spent better elsewhere,
particularly as you have 2 lashes available.

where? I have a feeling you're going to say more Oblits and I think I know that already, I just dont want to admit it and go back to that ultra boring nonsense. Maybe more Chosen? They seem really cool with all the special weapons and stuff.

I have the Prince and Sorcerer at 1-1 right now because the Sorcerer is a lot easier to hide than the Prince. I can hide the DP compeltely behind the LR, which is super cool. But the Sorcerer can hide in a unit and in a tank, making him a compete pain in the ass to get to grips with. He's really a punk aside from that though and I do like the extra power the DP packs in CC when it comes to protecting itself.

I've also been looking at a unit of 10 Terminators to form a rock solid core to the army and generally be a real pain to try and displace. With Lash I can set up favorable combats to help move the unit up the table and tarpit dangerous units if need be. This would come probably at the expense of the Chosen though, and I'm not sure if that is a good trade.

Try a unit of Khorne Champion terminators with lightning claws. In 2000 points, it's worth it

The LR can be replaced with a defiler, more Zerkers and a rhino for them. I'd go with at least one defiler/dreadnought to help vs. bloodcrushers and the defiler works well with Lash.

If you want to get away from lash, go with Kharn and some unit (LC termies maybe) coming out of a LR. I like the chosen units. Most of the time they run into lootas/long fangs in the backfield. a unit of 5 with 2 flamers and 2 meltaguns do the trick. Throw in one powerweapon and you're good to go with them in a rhino.

Ok, updated list:

Prince: Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Prince: Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash

5x Chosen: 4x Plasma Gun, 1x Power Weapon, Rhino
5x Chosen: 2x Meltagun, 2x Flamer, 1x Power Weapon, Rhino

8x Khorne Berkserkers: Champ/Power Fist, Rhino
5x Plague Marines: 2x Melta, Champ/Power Fist, Rhino
5x Plague Marines: 2x Melta, Champ/Power Fist, Rhino

Defiler: Autocannon, Heavy Flamer
3x Obliterators
3x Obliterators

I like the Defiler, it seems nice in the list assuming it survives and functions for at least a couple of turns. I kindof feel like it will just get shot down on turn 1 every game though. How should I be equipping it in terms of its weapons and such?

I completely didn't realize that Chosen have only 1 base attack, which is why they had Power Fists before. Fists with 1 attack each seem pretty bad though so they're switched over to Power Weapons. Also switched over to 2x Melta/2x Flamer for one of the units. Originally I was planning on running 2 units with Plasma Guns as I don't feel very well equipped for handling lots of monstrous creatures or other high toughness models. The utility of the unit with 2x Melta and 2x Flamer seems really nice though and something that is definitely worth trying out. To be honest I want a third unit of Chosen at this point.

I went back to 2 Princes but I'm not sure if its my favorite thing in the world at this point. I like being able to hide one of my Lashes and make it harder to get to. In objective missions if I can keep a Lash alive until the end of the game I feel like I'm always in a good position.

I always play with plain defiler. With no additional weapons. If you fire battle cannon you cant fire anything else. It has good firepower, and in close combat also can do something.

I personaly dont like lashers... I use them becouse they are realy good, but i dont like them...
If you like having one of your lash till last turn, so with this army list you have twice as much chance

The last build looks quite good.
If you want a build that is unique to CSM then replace the HS squads by Havocs with special weapons in Rhinos.
That's one of the most competitive builds CSM can have.

wuestenfux wrote:The last build looks quite good.
If you want a build that is unique to CSM then replace the HS squads by Havocs with special weapons in Rhinos.
That's one of the most competitive builds CSM can have.

Honestly, I have a build pointed out that includes 3 Havoc Squads and 3 units of Chosen in Rhinos. It totals up like 34 Plasma Guns or something stupid like that.

Well, in fact, this is one of the most competitive builds of the CSM codex.
All plasma guns?

Its 3 units of Chosen with 4 Plasma, 3 units of Havocs with 4 Plasma, 3 units of Plague Marines with 2 Meltas, and a unit of Raptors with 2 Meltas. Totals up to 24 Plasma Guns, 8 Meltas, 2 Lashes, and 12 Rhinos. I was just goofing around with it, but the amount of medium and short range firepower it puts out is pretty absurd. 12 Rhinos is a pain in the ass to try and stop in 1 turn as well since they're all going to be on 4+ cover and such. The Chosen can outflank too depending on the opponent. If I had the models I would certainly give it a run and see how it plays. I suspect I'll want to swap some of the Plasma over to Flamers to try and help out dealing with big units of Orks/Gaunts/whatever.

Indeed, this army would be sick and very competitive.

I don't see how this army can possibly succeed.... the plague marines aren't in 7 man squads.

@AF:
Well, maybe he's just going for MSU plague marines, that has worked in the past.
Though not as durable as 7 man squads it's nearly 100 points spent on other options to 'more' actively kill the enemy without needing to be tethered to an objective 2/3 of the time.

On the other hand, 7 man squads are the economical choice, a great balance of numbers, cost, and durability.

@Caffran9:
The lastest list:

Lash princes: Uber when they work, Lame Sauce when they don't. These guys rely heavily on the local meta. All I can say is, do not rely on it to get you wins, plan on it failing and you should be good, because as much as it is awesome, it will not be there for you all the time and catching yourself out of position can lose you the game big time.

Chosen:I'm not a fan of these kinds of units, but they look ok. Though the power weapon would be better as another special IMO.

Zerkers are ok.
Plague are ok, though I personally like 7-10 man squads. Small squads like these really can't support a Champ w/ fist. I'd think you'd be better with another dude honestly. Fists work because of their relative 'hidden' status and 4 body bags is far from 'hidden'.

Defiler is ok, though you are banking more on Target Saturation rather than Armor Saturation, so YMMV.
Oblits are ok.

Looks very cookie cutter, to say the least....I was thinking the same about 5 man PM squads until I actually tried them...They don't last long in assault, I'll say that. Are they fearless? I always forget...

Yes, all cult troops are fearless.
5 man squads are not designed to go into combat. Sit in rhino and shoot at 24" w/ plasma guns is what they are good for IMO. Otherwise 7 and a melta and get close.

Ah, then that makes 5 man units even better! No morale checks!

Honestly, I hate those kind of tactics. They make sense, and I use them all the time, but I feel silly doing it...

/shrug, different strokes for different folks.
I generally go for what is pleasing to the eye.

Sanctjud wrote:/shrug, different strokes for different folks.
I generally go for what is pleasing to the eye.

Ew, never use "strokes" and "pleasing to the eye" in the same sentence

But I agree. A 5 man unit looks pretty small on the board..Honestly, after playing guard for a while, a 10-man unit looks kind of small too

Well, we are dealing with Double Lash...it's only natural to progress into all things Slaanesh.

Don't make me go into Rear Armor penetration and power fisting...

DO NOT WANT!

Sanctjud wrote:@AF:
Well, maybe he's just going for MSU plague marines, that has worked in the past.
Though not as durable as 7 man squads it's nearly 100 points spent on other options to 'more' actively kill the enemy without needing to be tethered to an objective 2/3 of the time.

On the other hand, 7 man squads are the economical choice, a great balance of numbers, cost, and durability.

@Caffran9:
The lastest list:

Lash princes: Uber when they work, Lame Sauce when they don't. These guys rely heavily on the local meta. All I can say is, do not rely on it to get you wins, plan on it failing and you should be good, because as much as it is awesome, it will not be there for you all the time and catching yourself out of position can lose you the game big time.

Chosen:I'm not a fan of these kinds of units, but they look ok. Though the power weapon would be better as another special IMO.

Zerkers are ok.
Plague are ok, though I personally like 7-10 man squads. Small squads like these really can't support a Champ w/ fist. I'd think you'd be better with another dude honestly. Fists work because of their relative 'hidden' status and 4 body bags is far from 'hidden'.

Defiler is ok, though you are banking more on Target Saturation rather than Armor Saturation, so YMMV.
Oblits are ok.

Lash tends to not work very well in a lot of games. The games where it makes an impact though, it is game breaking. Those times are generally against armies that I think a list like this would generally struggle otherwise, so it is super nice to turn those games on their heads at minimal cost against other matchups.

I've been back and forth on the power weapon being another special. For the plasma unit I think that a 5th plasma gun would be better, but for the flamer/melta unit I'm not so sure. I can shoot those assault weapons and then charge in if there is anything left and tie up dangerous enemy shooting in the backfield. the power weapon helps make sure that I can finish the combat in 2 CC phases, allowing me to shoot my weapons on my next turn.

I generally like larger squads of Plague Marines. I'm down to 5 because I wanted to fit everything else in the list. The units of Chosen get to be aggressive where I would normally be using my Plague Marines, which is nice. How would you go about finding 92 points so that I can get 4 more Plague Marines into the list?

The Defiler is sortof the oddball out at the moment. I like him in theory, but I can see him dying super fast pretty frequently, which is bad.

How would you go about changing the list?

@Samus:
You may say 'no', but your eyes say 'yes, yes, yes'.

@Caffran9:
On Chosen: 5 meq's charging into combat is unlikely IMO, esp. if they are outflanking in the rhino.

Otherwise, it's your call. There's little wiggle room with respect to keeping all squads. If I had to suggest one squad to be dropped to up the others would be plasma chosen and shifting some plasma guns over the plague marines instead.