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Been playing daemons for a while and never really looked into him all that much until recently (new DP kit would be a nice base for him)
All in all, he is a thirster with breath and no wings (but fleet instead)
Thats not any problem, its his rage i want to work out here.

Obviously the idea is to make the most use from that 24" re-roll as possible, but is he competative?

Granted, the enemy gets to re-roll missed aswell, and with a mob of boyz thats not all that fun.
However, i fugured that assaulting 1st with a tide of attacks (with the re-roll) should be enough to grab an edge here.

While letters boost well from it, daemonettes seem to do even better.
They go from a basic troop with nothing special to being able to do a ton of damage in combat, assaulting or afterwards.


So, question is, would a list revolving around skarbrand work?
Im thinking of 2 blocks of letters and 2 of daemonettes as a core of the army, all 4 blocks will be big (15-20 or so)
Also, i see seekers being able to do an amazing amount of damage with it.
10 of them are 170 points and can throw out 50 rending attacks with re-rolls to hit on the charge.

So in theory, i need to go all out on combat units that will be going 1st to make sure they dont get much use from the re-rolls.
Should also speed combats up though, meaning the daemons spend more time in the open between turns.

So, worth it, or is it too much of a risk?

You should be striking at higher initiatve than your opponent so the rerolls will tend to favor you. Also he gives your demons a chance agaisnt even fast moving vehicles. Yes take him. Auto-Include.
AF

Your missing the main point here though mate.

Ork boyz will still do damage, and with re-rolls they will be doing a considerable amount if i cant thin them out enough.

I just see it as a double edged sword.

It also reduces the strength of any MC's or elite units i take as they may benefit, but as do the units that will try and flood them.

Im also going to ignore fiends for now.
Seekers are much cheaper and points per attack, seekers outweigh them by miles.


the 1 unit i want but dont want to risk are crushers.
Ive generally been lucky with saves and not many attacks have actually hit or wounded them in combat, but with re-rolls they will take some damage.

I also fall short against elite units like banshees and other daemons, as they will gain the same as me at the same initiative.

In general the most effective units I see Scarbrand teamed with are Fiends. Tons of attacks means a lot of saves.

your best bet surviving close combat is to wipe them out at higher initiative so they never strike you at all. That's your compensation for having crap saves in the demon codex. A big ork boyz squad will probably trash an equal number of points of daemonettes or bloodletters one way or another so skarbrand is still helping you; you're killing more of them in the trade. Same thing with the monstrous creatures vs. a bunch of little guys. The surviving models will get more attacks through, yes. But there will be fewer models making attacks because you killed more of them at higher initiative. Either way you're more likely to pull it off with skarbrand than without.

Look you're playing demons. It's an aggressive army you have to take risks. You go into battle practically naked; if you don't wipe them at higher initiative how can you win? Skarbrand epitomizes that playstyle. You aren't going to win by hedging your bets.

Why fiends though?
for points per attack, seekers beat them by far, and daemonettes beat them just as much.


also, fiends will draw fire alot more than the other 2 units, and due to small model count, they will get gunned down quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AF: by all means i wont win that way, but thinking through what im doing 1st will help win.

for example: Bansheers charge crushers.
Banshees go 1st with re-rolls.
Power weps leave me with just a 5++
Crushers dead, banshees free to rome.

A cheap dedicated assault unit will smash through my elite units thanks to the re-rolls.

All khorne units rely on getting off the charge so FC pushes them to going 1st.
Without that they are getting hit at the same time as hitting.



also, how so with the ork boyz mob?
Granted they have fewer models left, but those models will end up hitting as hard as they usually would with higher numbers.
also, why charge in points for points?
I rather go with multiple assaults to make sure i kill a unit than just throw them in unit for unit.

The whole attitude of "they would have died anyway" doesent do alot.
also, daemons tend to be a smaller more elite army, so i will get outnumbered quite a bit, and due to deployment, ill allways be outnumbered.
all that idea will end up doing is me losing a unit for each unit i kill.


I have however been thinking about throwing in kairos aswell.
this should help counter-balance the rage and make sure i dont take too heavy losses in combat.

However, points start to creep up and he makes a nice target to attack.
With a 6" re-roll bubble ill need him near the fight aswell, so may have to keep him screened.

Yeah Skarbrand will be amazing if you build your army right, first of all no bloodletters, they are only I4 when they dont charge, so if something charges you at I5.....blood angels assault marines with priest, your in trouble........even normal marines will be going at the same time.

Skarbrand
2 units of 20 daemonettes
2 units of 10 seekers
1 unit of 6 fiends

Your MCs would suffer so go all out slaaneshi, you would need the fiends however for heavier tanks/walkers.
The bonus to slaaneshi stuff is that its al fleeting, so you will get into combat much quicker, only 6 Kill points in this list too.

Plus you number 67 models here...high for daemons

Radi87 wrote:Yeah Skarbrand will be amazing if you build your army right, first of all no bloodletters, they are only I4 when they dont charge, so if something charges you at I5.....blood angels assault marines with priest, your in trouble........even normal marines will be going at the same time.

Skarbrand
2 units of 20 daemonettes
2 units of 10 seekers
1 unit of 6 fiends

Your MCs would suffer so go all out slaaneshi, you would need the fiends however for heavier tanks/walkers.
The bonus to slaaneshi stuff is that its al fleeting, so you will get into combat much quicker, only 6 Kill points in this list too.

I'd have to disagree.
Initiative, though handy, is not the make-or-break factor in an army. If I'm honest, I doubt many armies are able to produce I5 regularly, so that shouldn't really be a problem. In effect, you've just dismissed a huge chunk of the army based on a trivial thing.

Radi - That army is also very brittle.
Even a stray battlecannon round could do far too much damage.

while the movement, attacks and initiative of slaanesh units are great, they wont allways be in combat.
the turn they drop im having to rely on cover to keep them alive.
All those attacks arent much use if i have MSU's by the time in in assault.

While letters arent 100x more resiliant, they do however stand up to small arms fire and can shrug it off alot of the time.
They also have power weapons, so i know they will be ignoring armour 100% of the time.

most marine players around here either spam MSU termies, or 2 big units.
I dont really want to gamble with rending on killing 10 termies.

Saying that, nettes get to assault through cover with offensive and defensive grenades, something letters lack.



I think ill have to try and get a decent balance as i also want a unit of 10-15 plagues with an icon as a stable platform for the army, and a unit to sit on objectives.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Radi - That army is also very brittle.
Even a stray battlecannon round could do far too much damage.

while the movement, attacks and initiative of slaanesh units are great, they wont allways be in combat.
the turn they drop im having to rely on cover to keep them alive.
All those attacks arent much use if i have MSU's by the time in in assault.

While letters arent 100x more resiliant, they do however stand up to small arms fire and can shrug it off alot of the time.
They also have power weapons, so i know they will be ignoring armour 100% of the time.

most marine players around here either spam MSU termies, or 2 big units.
I dont really want to gamble with rending on killing 10 termies.

Saying that, nettes get to assault through cover with offensive and defensive grenades, something letters lack.



I think ill have to try and get a decent balance as i also want a unit of 10-15 plagues with an icon as a stable platform for the army, and a unit to sit on objectives.

I'd agree with this. Against marines, Letters are the better bet in my opinion.
Though Slaaneshi units do have a bucket of attacks and rending, they are very brittle - far more so than letters.

Well Jack I'm sorry you're not finding my advice helpful.... honestly.

You deal with the boyz by hitting them with two squads of blood letters at once or by charging them with blood crushers which the boyz have a hard time wounding. With slaanesh it's uphill no matter what you do fiends are probably your best bet because they have higher strength toughness and wounds.

To your banshees example yes some things have higher init then you do and will steel skarbrands benefits but init 5 is already higher than 90% of the units in the game. Most high unit models are also low strength I'd advise countering them with skarbrand a blood thirster or tarpitting with practically any nurgle demon.

Anyway you pretty much know what I think now so there's not a whole lot left to say...
AF

I was only suggesting nettes for a skarbrand list, assault and defensive grenades means your opponent is always on basic attacks, I6 means you are going before nearly all infantry, multiple attacks, re rolls, and rending, plus fleet...hello!!!

say only 12 of the 20 daemonettes survive a round of shooting ok, 12 get in to combat, 4 attacks each on the charge at I 6, say against 30 ork boyz.......
48 attacks, hitting on 4's with re rolls
36 hits
6 rending
6 wounds
oh dear....yeah they are pretty poo.

against ten tac marines.....
6 rending
6 wounds, 2 failed armour
only two to strike back......hmmm pretty awesome

against shooty termies
6 rending, 4 dead
6 armour, 1 dead
either half a squad or a squad dead....hmmmm

even if 5 hit back
10 attacks, 7 hits
6 wounds
4 dead nettes...u won combat against ten termies.......hmmm

against TH/SS
6 rending, 2 dead
6 armour, 1 dead
not as good, but TH/SS are awesome

against 50 gaurdsmen and commisar
48 attack, hitting on threes with re rolls
32 hit 1st time, 16 re rolls, 10 hit
42 hits
7 rending
14 wounds, 9 dead
16 dead in total
29 guys 5 searges 1 comm back
47 attacks, hit on 4s with rerolls
35 hit
18 wound
12 dead
bye bye nettes

hmmm maybe, i was wrong......skarbrand is a difficult one........however i think you need lots of attacks at high I to make him useful

Strategies that rely on your opponents compliance/stupidity are poor ones.

Leez: Who says anything about having to rely on that?
Whole idea is to make as much use from skarbrand as possible while making sure the other player gets as little as possible from him.


Radi: Seems situational mate.
while they do good against medium horde and small units, large horde chew through them in retrn due to low toughness.
Also, keep in mind that S3 means they wont be wounding anyone average too easily.
Letters may have 1 less attack, but S and T4 with a higher WS and power weps means they can get the job done against most.



AF: Im sorry you feel that way.
Depends how you look at it.
I5 isnt higher than 90% of other units.
most BA units will be jump packed, and have FC with FNP when used right.

How do units like boyz struggle wounding crushers? 0_o
Its just like wounding a marine.

crushers are tn 5 orks are str 3

letters vs 10 marines, charging into cover, as most marines are in cover (you may find this 'situational, but you must take their lack of grenades into account)
assume 12 are alive like with daemonettes

marines striking first with 12 attack, 9 guys plus searg, hitting on 4s with rerolls
9 hits, wounding on fours
4/5 wounds
3 dead
27 attacks back, hitting on 3's with rerolls
24 hit, wounding on 3's
tac squad dead

letters vs 30 boyz
(difficult for them to out charge the orks here, no fleet etc plus the fact you deep strike in, so ill run both match ups

with letters charging, if orks not in cover
36 attacks hitting on 3's with re rolls
32 hit, wounding on 3's
21 wounds
8 orks and a nob back
24 normal boys attacks hitting on 4 with rerolls
18 hit, wounding on 5 s
6 wounds, 4 dead letters plus one from the nob

with orks charging
24 letter attacks, hit on 3's with rerolls
21 hits, wounding on 4's
11 wounds
18 boys plus nob left
54 boyz attacks, hit on 4,s with rerolls
40 hits wounding on 4's
20 wounds
whole squad dead

(the same happens if you have to charge through cover)

against shooty termies

you charging
36 attacks on 3's with rerolls
32 hit, wound on 3's
21 wounds
all dead termies

if they charge you
24 attacks from the lettes, 3s with rerolls
21 hits, wound on 4's
11 wounds,
7 dead termies

against lightning claws
when charging
36 on 3s with reroll
32 hit wound on 3s
21 wounds
all dead

when they charge you
going at the same time
24 attacks from lettes, on 3's with rerolls
21 hit, 11 wound
7 dead

however they have 40 attacks, hit on 4s with rerolls
30 hit, wound on 4's with rerolls
22 wounds
all letters dead

against THSS
on the charge you will kill 7, 21 wounds etc see above
being charged you have 24 attacks so 21 hit 11 wound
3/4 dead
18 attacks back at you, hit on 4's with rerolls
14 hit wound on 2's
12 wound
8 letters die

against 50 guardsmen and commisar
you have 36 attacks hit on 3's with rerolls
32 hit, wound with 26 on 2's
24 guardsmen bac plus comm, so comm 5 searges and 19 guys
37 attacks hitting on 4's with rerolls
28 hit, wounding on 5's
9 wound
6 letters die
(guardsmen more than likely to stick around)

next round you have 10 attacks, hitting on 3's with rerolls
9 hit, wound on 3's
6 dead
comm, 5 searges and 13 guys back
31 attacks, hiton 4's with re rolls
23 hit, wound on 5's
8 wound, good chance you are all dead now........

so it looks like letters have similar problems but the ws 5 helps a lot

I think he's viable. The thing is that most armies don't bring the quality in assault Daemons do. As said before, if you have the number of attacks and the initiative over your enemy, Skabrand can boost your army by a lot. You have build your list around this guy, the opponent has not...

A list like this:

Keeper of Secrets
Skabrand
6 Fiends, UM
6 Fiends, UM
3 Fiends, UM
8 Bloodletters
12 Daemonettes
6 Daemonettes
8 Flesh Hounds, Karanak
Daemon Prince, MoK, UM, Wings

at 1700 points

Would be a lot of fun to play and although it's a bit brittle for my taste, it would be too 'in your face' for a lot of the shooty lists out there and it can out-assault a lot of assaultoriented lists. Cool, almost makes me want to start converting a Skabrand!

Also, Jack, Id reconsider the Fiends (obviously, given my selection). Im just too disappointed by the fact that with Seekers and Daemonettes you have a lot of hits that just wont wound a lot of stuff out there. Also, always a handicap with Daemons, you have to tune your list for AntiArmour. Fiends offer that. Also, in this list, Sopoforic Musk adds a lot of flexibility.
Your fear of that squad of Orks? With soo many mobile elements and the Daemonic Assault rule you decide where the battle takes place. Multiple charges on that one squad of 30 Orks solves a lot of problems Id say...

Cilithan

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Leez: Who says anything about having to rely on that?
Whole idea is to make as much use from skarbrand as possible while making sure the other player gets as little as possible from him.

The 24" bubble on Rage Embodied means you can't reasonably deny you opponents use of it without them being bad (it's ridiculously powerful when you can though) and even this "using a sledgehammer as a scalpel" technique means you've "lost" 300 points for a lot of the game, need to be a near flawless distance estimator, and a superb manipulator of units on the board.

Relying on Initiative with troops that scatter and can't assault on arrival means you need to reliably deny the charge, get the charge yourself, and/or sacrifice Toughness (shooting phase) is relying on your opponents lack of skill.

Re-crunch all those numbers with the unit getting a round of shooting to their face, them not getting the charge, and them failing to deny the charge then gauge the cost-benefits. Then add in the fact that any half descent opponent will know exactly what's up the second they see Skarbrand on your list (or maybe after a few seconds, every time I've used him for the first time against an opponent they've asked to see the codex after scanning the list).

He's a powerful character both as a unit and as an influence on the game, making the game go much quicker (which can be great if you have opponents that get "shell-shocked" at how fast everything dies) but he's a 'n giggles unit that weakens your army more then it strengthens it. Which is what I meant when I said relying on your opponents compliance/stupidity.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you shouldn't use him nor build a list around him. In fact I'd encourage you to do it, I find him ridiculously fun. The one thing I do feel strongly enough over to use the word "should" is don't gauge his value on the first, second, or even third result against each opponent you play. The fourth one will give you a true measure of his worth, you need to play people that know what it is, it does, and how it gets played. He's easily countered without any list changing whatsoever.

Skarbrand with Daemonettes is incredibly nasty.

I've played my friend's army several times that has Skarabrand, a gakload of Daemonettes, Fiends and 3 Soul Grinders. Oh yeah, and the Masque.

If your Daemon opponent's reserve rolls are going well that's a damn tough nut to crack.

Leez wrote:Relying on Initiative with troops that scatter and can't assault on arrival means you need to reliably deny the charge, get the charge yourself, and/or sacrifice Toughness (shooting phase) is relying on your opponents lack of skill.

Funny I'd say you'd be relying on targetoverload / the ability to deploy in reaction to a fully deployed army / the insane chargerange of Fiends of Slaanesh after deploying them safely, or at least one of those factors...

I find running Skarbrand in your 2nd wave works best. If he lands with the primary wave, the enemy targets him and shoots him dead....300 points and your trick is gone. It is risky putting him in reserve as you might not get him till turn 3 or 4 but once he lands you are already into the enemy. Plus once he lands you can use hs benefit with units that are now able to assault. Deamons have very few units that can impact the game once they land, Skarbrand is one of them, but only if other units can assault the turn he lands.

The Soulgrinders compliment him as well. It is a little risky since they have low I, but with all their attacks gaining re-rolls, they begin to wipe out 4 or 5 tac marines, or you can go chase those pesky vehicles and even if the vehicle went over 6" 5 attacks for 6's with re-rolls usually gets you a hit or two. At S10 the naked grinders and Skarbrand are very potent.

2000 points with him could go

Skarrby
GUO

6 Crushers kitted out
6 Fiends
6 Fiends

3 x naked Soulgrinders

roughly 500 points for your flavor of troops.

Crushers and GUO can be in primary to take the shots, keeping the Slaneshi stuff alive.

That has worked for me. I also like screemers with the reroll but not many are a fan of those manta-rays.

Cilithan wrote: Your fear of that squad of Orks? With soo many mobile elements and the Daemonic Assault rule you decide where the battle takes place. Multiple charges on that one squad of 30 Orks solves a lot of problems Id say...

Cilithan

How many ork players have just one 30 strong unit....you charge and kill one prepare to be countercharged by two....

I think he's viable, I'd run very heavy Slannesh list. However I would want the masque to ensure charges and deny my opponents. I addition, I would likely run 3 soul grinders to drop the pie plates on units that get clumped up.

I also would look at running skulltaker as well, If he gets rerolls to hit, some heads will surly roll.

With daemonettes all your rerolls would have a chance to be rending iirc.

Just something to consider.

How many ork players have just one 30 strong unit....you charge and kill one prepare to be countercharged by two....

How would you plan on getting 60 boyz into combat with a unit of 10 models?
Granted, we can keep this up all day since i would then counter charge.

but thats not the point.

Nettes have the movement to keep away from mobs if they want, or to draw them away from the main bulk of the army.

Lets face it, you have an effective assault range each turn of 12"
Nettes can move that notmall, and also have a fleet to push even more.
So if they dont want to be caught, they wont.

The 24" bubble on Rage Embodied means you can't reasonably deny you opponents use of it without them being bad (it's ridiculously powerful when you can though) and even this "using a sledgehammer as a scalpel" technique means you've "lost" 300 points for a lot of the game, need to be a near flawless distance estimator, and a superb manipulator of units on the board.

Leez, you missing my point.
By deny them the advantage i dont mean keep them 24" + at all times, that would be stupidly hard to keep going throughout a game.
I mean crush thier units down small enough the re-rolls wont do much.

Orks can and will waaaaah to catch you off guard remember that

They can only use waaagh! once, and only on the 2nd turn or later.
Unless of course you get lucky with a weirdboy (1/6 chance)

And being an old ork player, i doubt it will catch me off guard.
Allways a good reason to drop units far away (orks lack range in shooting) then fleet forward 2nd turn into assault.
Also, if ghaz is in the list he will be ignored while on his waaagh!
Then he can be hacked apart by someone. (possibly skulltaker)

Ok then sounds like you have it all sorted then, good luck

On the grenades issue with letters and fiends, Ive found that a cheap(ish) pavane prince can help out immensely. A DP with mark of slaneesh and pavane is only 120pts, and they can also deal with walkers, something daemon armies struggle with. Pavane troops out of cover, charge them with letters or fiends, if you have skarbrand then it acts as a nice force multiplier for your squads, and even 5 letters will kill around 8-9 marines on the charge with skarbrand rerolls.