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check this out for those who havent seen it.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326733

There's a thread in news and rumours, an old one.

Is it me or does GW not even care about us fans? Why do they keep doing what they're doing? Raise prices... lawsuit fans... Keep us in the dark... Its just so... EVIL!!!! I blame the chaos gods!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And MORE!!!
http://boingboing.net/2009/11/28/games-workshop-decla.html

For a company that prides themselves on the versatile/conversion nature of they're products they sure are being dumb

This isn't new news, and it isn't Off Topic, so I am moving it to Dakka Discussions.

arkayne819 wrote:Is it me or does GW not even care about us fans? Why do they keep doing what they're doing? Raise prices... lawsuit fans... Keep us in the dark... Its just so... EVIL!!!! I blame the chaos gods!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And MORE!!!
http://boingboing.net/2009/11/28/games-workshop-decla.html

For a company that prides themselves on the versatile/conversion nature of they're products they sure are being dumb

It's really just you. How your lack of understanding makes GW dumb is lost on me. But please, feel free to rant and rave about how GW don't love you.

This is all very old news. And for what it's worth, sending a Cease and Desist letter is a very, very different thing to a lawsuit.

GW are allways trigger happy with C&D's

Sure, may seem unfair and usually its targeted at a fan-based site for the hobby.
They just feel it could cause them problems in the long run (i know, small forum VS massive company)

All in all, they have allways done this and allways will do it.

GW hates their fanbase.... what else is new?

Oh calm down. They've always done this kind of crap. It's nothing new. And if you're determined, you'll find old games. The internet is a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig place.

They don't have a 'fan' base.
They have "customers".

They don't have to satisfy "fans" - they just have to ensure they keep buying stuff - or newer replacements do so.

Given the turnover in GW players, they are accomplishing this adequately as it is.

Wrong, they have "followers".

wah. wah. GW is protective of their intellectual property. wah. wah.

They just want people to buy their new stuff and to not use old stuff they found for free on the web. They are a business. the purpose of a business is to make money. end of story. They care about their fanbase as long as it keeps on buying toy soldiers.

It's because Curse makes money off subscriptions and uses GW trademarks to assist in doing so. User-made content or not, any site making a profit off of GW IP is legit to shut down, far as i'm concerned.

Don't act like Curse is friendly. If you play WoW then you probably know they have a monopoly of the addon niche and they make it clear they would like you to pay.

They do? That's totally legit for shutdown then. Screw 'em. They don't get to make money off of GWs IP.

Ktulhut wrote:They do? That's totally legit for shutdown then. Screw 'em. They don't get to make money off of GWs IP.

They don't. They make money on their completely optional download client, which coincidentally carries addons for WAR. It's a stretch to say they've got anything to do with GW's IP, especially when add-ons can't alter the game in any meaningful fashion and Curse hasn't used Spess Mahreenz, etc. in any of their advertising or client.

It's similar to the theory behind strategy guides, gold guides, etc: It's perfectly legitimate to sell advice and/or services relating to a game as long as it doesn't violate the ToS and doesn't actually impinge upon their IP. If using IP in such a fashion weren't legal, GW would be suing anyone who sold painted models or commission service. Heck, this website would be shut down, as it makes a profit off of advertisement, and traffic is generated by GW IP.

micahaphone wrote:wah. wah. GW is protective of their intellectual property. wah. wah.

They just want people to buy their new stuff and to not use old stuff they found for free on the web. They are a business. the purpose of a business is to make money. end of story. They care about their fanbase as long as it keeps on buying toy soldiers.

IMO It's the weird English copyright laws. This debate came up else where on a forum and I seem to remember it being put down to this. IIRC, I read that if someone has is using your IP and you take no action then anyone can use it without persecution.

Now I'm not a law expert so this may be wrong but that's the gist of what I read and it would explain why GW is so up tight about their IP.

Given that the lawsuit is taking place in Maryland I somehow doubt that is the case Wizard.

It also looks very much like legal procedure and not a nice letter asking them to remove Warhammer form the Warhammeralliance title.

This is about trade mark and not IP
GW once again using a silly hammer to crack a small nut.It looks as though GW knew about the site and its name when it was set up. They even discussed the necessary disclaimer.

A pox on their house.

Well, it seems like they weren't in 2006, when apparently GW were backing the alliance. did the law change, or did GW (or both)? but like you wizard12, i'm not an expert on law, yet I do agree with you, it's either everybody or nobody that can use a company's IP, the decision being the company's.

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:Well, it seems like they weren't in 2006, when apparently GW were backing the alliance. did the law change, or did GW (or both)? but like you wizard12, i'm not an expert on law, yet I do agree with you, it's either everybody or nobody that can use a company's IP, the decision being the company's.

Actually, no. There's a huge range of exceptions to IP rights, my favorites being parody and fair use, the latter of which comes into play quite heavily here.

A War Hammer is a real object though and a term in public domain, so I think that GW might struggle to argue that they have rights on all domain names that include "war hammer" in them, it could be "battleaxealliance.com". I know it isn't in this case, but GW couldn't shut down any and all use of the words "war hammer" in any internet domain name.

So they'd have to partly argue on the use of copyrighted materials, and Warhammeralliance doesn't use GW font types or images. So there's certainly an argument for fair use.

I'm not a legal expert at all and I don't know how much mileage you could get out of the above. But the fact is that for all the claims of C&Ds and what you can or cannot do under 'fair use' and the various posters who always turn up claiming their own knowledge - you don't know the outcome until it's tested in court. And that happens rarely, either the person threatened folds and complies with the C&D (usually because they can't risk legal costs regardless of whether they are in the right) or GW back down and don't press it to court (partly for the same reason, but also not to set a precedent one might presume).

Aye, its not something you should be worried about tbh.. curse set itself up for that one.

Its why we just changed the url over at warhammer40Konline.net, we had been told although there where no current plans by GW to come after us, the curse issue might potentially change that.

So we switched to warpwatchers.com, bringing a slight story element into the site, and make it a bit more interesting as we build up to the MMO release.

Again this is not about Intellectual property!
It is about the misuse of the word "Warhammer" as far as I can see.

Since they have been using the disclaimer and have not been using the WH logo, I don't see what GW has to gain by this except to show they have the resources to throw their legal weight around.

They will probably have to prove that the use by Curse will be detrimental to GW's trading in some way?
I really do hope it turns round and bites them on the arse like a rampant squig on heat.

mikhaila wrote:

arkayne819 wrote:Is it me or does GW not even care about us fans? Why do they keep doing what they're doing? Raise prices... lawsuit fans... Keep us in the dark... Its just so... EVIL!!!! I blame the chaos gods!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And MORE!!!
http://boingboing.net/2009/11/28/games-workshop-decla.html

For a company that prides themselves on the versatile/conversion nature of they're products they sure are being dumb

It's really just you. How your lack of understanding makes GW dumb is lost on me. But please, feel free to rant and rave about how GW don't love you.

Oh eat it bucko!
I'm not having a rant, I just thought for those who haven't seen this they might want to look at it.
I'm big on GW stuff. I play 40k, I love to play 40k. My opinion, is why must they be so harsh? When the people they're law suiting is fans of their work.
Sure if they're Copyrighting then take em out. I agree with that.

.....

It's Deja Vu all over again.

The conversation is in the archives, if you want to go back a couple of pages.

Welcome to the real world, where companies make money and the kool aid weres off more and more frequently.

All I can tell you is to try changing flavors.

good luck

Kilkrazy wrote:This isn't new news, and it isn't Off Topic, so I am moving it to Dakka Discussions.

That about sums it up

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Given that the lawsuit is taking place in Maryland I somehow doubt that is the case Wizard.

It also looks very much like legal procedure and not a nice letter asking them to remove Warhammer form the Warhammeralliance title.

This is about trade mark and not IP
GW once again using a silly hammer to crack a small nut.It looks as though GW knew about the site and its name when it was set up. They even discussed the necessary disclaimer.

A pox on their house.

The lawsuit is taking place in Maryland because that's where Curse is based. It'll be applicable under English law, because that's where GW filed their copyright/trademarks.

As for the site...GW probably had no issues with the site when it started(when it was a fan run operation--which was then sold to Curse Inc), until it started directing revenue to Curse, Inc. Because despite Curse not making money off of the addons themselves--Warhammeralliance directed alot of search and click-through traffic their way.

Howard A Treesong wrote: A War Hammer is a real object though and a term in public domain, so I think that GW might struggle to argue that they have rights on all domain names that include "war hammer" in them, it could be "battleaxealliance.com". I know it isn't in this case, but GW couldn't shut down any and all use of the words "war hammer" in any internet domain name.

If the site were discussing medieval weaponry, there wouldn't be any issue. The fact is it's a site that was set up and dedicated to Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. GW also had no issue with the site when it was a fan run operation, even if they were taking donations(because let's face it--a successful site does require donations in both time and money from fans, unless the owner is fairly wealthy or has no real job outside of moderating his site).

Once the guy sold his site to a corporate entity--the game changes.

Really? You actually think they are just a-holes because they are trying to protect their copyrights?

Thanks Kanwulen
I still fail to see what the upset is about unless Curse whoever they are, are dircting monies away from GW into their own coffers.

I will stand corrected if this is happening. Not understood the Curse INc bit and no clue what they do

No one has said that. If there has been breach of copyright then no one can defend that. The issue seems to be the use of the word Warhammer in the web title.

Since there is a full disclaimer that the site has no connection with GW it comes across as heavyhanded harrying.
From what Kanwulen says it is not so clear cut to be fair.

Sites like WarhammerAlliance are surely doing nothing but keeping up the profile of GW and their products among the fanbase? Are they actually doing more harm than good to GW?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Thanks Kanluwen
I still fail to see what the upset is about unless Curse whoever they are, are directing monies away from GW into their own coffers.

I will stand corrected if this is happening. Not understood the Curse INc bit and no clue what they do

Basically, what was happening is Curse, Inc(a third party mod company that produces raid addons, etc etc for MMORPGs) purchased the Warhammer Alliance domain name and said nothing about it.
From there?
Warhammer Alliance's original owner was still soliciting "donations" from fans, stating that they needed the money to keep the site functional and to avoid being purchased, etc etc. In reality--he was generating click-thru traffic and getting his site bumped up and up and up, generating cash for Curse(which is a corporate entity and NOT a fan site. Once it becomes a corporate entity owned site, you cannot claim fan site status. You do not get the ability to just put up a disclaimer stating you have no affiliation--you need to actively be involved and paying royalties to that company) .

No one has said that. If there has been breach of copyright then no one can defend that. The issue seems to be the use of the word Warhammer in the web title.

That's not reallllllly the issue. The issue is, like I said--it went from being a privately operated fan site that was soliciting donations(which was fine) to a corporately owned site masquerading under being a "fan" site.

Since there is a full disclaimer that the site has no connection with GW it comes across as heavyhanded harrying.
From what Kanluwen says it is not so clear cut to be fair.

Disclaimers only really are intended for fan sites. Once you get a corporation involved, the rules change.

Sites like WarhammerAlliance are surely doing nothing but keeping up the profile of GW and their products among the fanbase? Are they actually doing more harm than good to GW?

If they actually advertised anything Games Workshop, you'd be right. Most of their clickthrough traffic, however, leads to Curse Inc and its sites--which is generating them money at the expense of Games Workshop.

http://www.curse.com/

They host addons, for free, along with various MMO-related news. They also sell a subsciption based premium version of their addon-installation client.

If they actually advertised anything Games Workshop, you'd be right. Most of their clickthrough traffic, however, leads to Curse Inc and its sites--which is generating them money at the expense of Games Workshop.

No it doesn't. It generates them money in a manner completely unrelated to GW's revenue streams, while promoting GW's WHFB IP to the internet-going public. Since GW has absolutely no interest in the MMO add-on market, saying that they're losing money due to Curse's actions is rather silly.

Of course, soliciting donations under the guise of a fan site while in actuality funnelling said revenue into your corporate coffers is an entirely different matter, and would probably merit criminal charges (fraud, for instance) rather than the civil ones GW is pursuing. As I'm not familiar with the matter, I'll refrain from commenting further on the matter for now.