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I've not really understood why so many lists lean hard on these guys. Bloodcrushers: S5 power weapons with a good number of attacks, yeah I guess that is pretty decent. Furious charge, T5 and 3+ armor, some extra goodness right there. Moves like infantry and deepstrike deploys... what? (how are you getting that into assault? people will just move away) Most expensive elite choice on top of that? hmmm Flamers: template attack ignores armor, good volume of fire (though bolter strength) and can take a BS 4 bolt of tzeentch, all really good right? 1 wound each, 35 points per, and must deep strike REALLY close to use its breath weapon? Not so great IMHO, suicide squad at best.

So both units are potentially powerful, but one is slow, and the other is an unreliable suicide unit.

There has to be better options that that, right? Beasts of nurgle are not it, too many bad things to list, and not enough good things to bother with. So that leaves fiends. S5 (with one upgradeable in each squad upgradable to S6), moves as a beast, rending, a bunch of attacks (6 on the charge!), hit and run and its the cheapest per model elite choice? 15 points per wound? What is the downside? T4 and 5+ saves...

So on one hand we have a unit that has one of the largest assault ranges in the game, can threaten and destroy anything (S6 with rend can pen even AV 14), a bunch of attacks to do it with, and its only downside is that is only is T4 and a daemon save. Per wound its one of the cheapest choices in the army. Yet offensively can do more than just about anything in the book. Why don't people just take max units of these, and then fill out their army after that?

So can anyone give me a good reason other than fluff or model (and the fiend model is particularly bad) why one should take bloodcrushers or flamers?

Bloodcrushers are pretty durable, though I still hate them, too slow to be of any use IMO, and any one who gets stuck in CC with them wants to be stuck in CC...

IIRC, flamers are jump infantry... and the template is like 8 inches long? So maybe you can deep strike behind cover then next turn jumo and flame?

You see both of those units for a few reasons. Blood Crushers with Fateweaver are very, very hard to kill, S6 power weapons on the charge are very good, and if you leave yourself on objectives or in the middle of the board the enemy can only dodge so far. Flamers can stun or shake two vehicles at once with their attack, if you crack transports they also clean up what spills out well and are the Daemon's answer to hordes.

Well I run a squad of flamers in my deamon army... They terrify my friend who runs eldar, tyranids and BA... always wound on 4+ templates... with 4+ glance son vehicle... pretty effective when its quite a few templates... good against anything... To add to it, they are jump infantry... so you dont need to throw them right in the thick first turn they come in... deep strike them into safety but still in next turn striking distance and jump em in... My best example for using them is when I deep struck them next to my plague bearers who had a chaos icon... and had it all lined up so that i had a number of flamer tmeplates suddenly engulfing my buddy's wraithguard and the falcon carrying them... Destroyed the wraith guard outright, and completely disabled the falcon so that it was a weaponless immobilised hunk of eldar transport. Me I havent found much joy in bloodcrushers, since they are basically extra toughness bloodletters.. but I love flamers.

Norade wrote:You see both of those units for a few reasons. Blood Crushers with Fateweaver are very, very hard to kill, S6 power weapons on the charge are very good, and if you leave yourself on objectives or in the middle of the board the enemy can only dodge so far. Flamers can stun or shake two vehicles at once with their attack, if you crack transports they also clean up what spills out well and are the Daemon's answer to hordes.

I personally don't understand the Fatecrusher list at all. Sure, Blood crushers with a reroll are hard to kill. Still dog slow and they WILL die to torrent of fire, especially after Fateweaver dies. Add in the fact that the formation is a deathstar that moves like infantry and must remain relatively tight... it doesn't limit your opponents movement enough, and its assault range is just poor at best. Deamons need to limit the opponents movement options, or be able to assault long distances.

Daemons answer to hordes is large numbers of quality CC attacks. Templates are nice for this, but CC with a 3+ attacks per model unit works even better.

In your first post, you question why people don't take max units of fiends.

I think that the problem with your original line of reasoning is that people with strong daemon armies have figured out what you're reasoning, and *do* take a lot of fiends.

notabot187 wrote:

I personally don't understand the Fatecrusher list at all. Sure, Blood crushers with a reroll are hard to kill. Still dog slow and they WILL die to torrent of fire, especially after Fateweaver dies. Add in the fact that the formation is a deathstar that moves like infantry and must remain relatively tight... it doesn't limit your opponents movement enough, and its assault range is just poor at best. Deamons need to limit the opponents movement options, or be able to assault long distances.

This is why I like Fiends and Seekers. Sure, not nearly as durable or hard-hitting as bloodcrushers, but their reach is amazing. And Screamers. I'd prefer a unit of Screamers over Flamers and if for nothing else, than for the reason you mentioned. You must Deep Strike 8" away from something if you plan to use their breath weapon. Not that I won't take risks (I do play daemons after all), but if I can avoid them, I will.

notabot
Blood crushers are just an exceptionally good buy. They hit very hard and they don't cost a whole lot, considering what you get. For the flamers it's the simplicity and power of their shooting. Their flamers auto hit and ignore anything but invulnerables. And the unit is reasonably costed. Given the options that a demon player has I feel that they're both very strong.

Also both units work well with fateweaver since one is 3+/5++ and the other is 4++. The fate crusher list is slow like you said but the blood crushers can control space if they can survive the shooting; controlling space matters in the objective games. Since they don't have to come in until later in the game and they have fateweaver, besides being a pretty tough unit in their own right, the opponent may not have the time to deal with them through shooting.
AF

I got flamers because they fit with my scheme. If I were getting my army now, I'd have gotten fiends instead, and scheme be damned.

That said, flamers don't have to be an unreliable suicide unit. If you have LOS-blocking terrain, especially towards the middle of the table, you can drop them behind it and jump the next turn. I prefer using them that way. Alternatively, in those few cases where I have an icon close to where I want them on the front lines, that works too...

Both of those, of course, are situational. But it's not quite as bad as you seemed to be implying.

Those who doubt fatecrusher should stop playing theory hammer. Not to say fiends arent amazing, my new daemon idea runs 15 of the things and no crushers, but also no fateweaver, horrors, heralds, or plaugebearers (most of the units considered to be good). Back to the point. Objectives, in most games you can win this (in your theory world of planting 8 crushers ont an objective and not letting your opponent near it. Now try it by spreading them out, that's a lot of area, then add a 12" threat bubble, and put them near a cluster of 2 or 3 objectives. Now the enemy doesnt want to get near the objectives (in theory world).

In reality the enemy enjoys games, and not losing because hes "terrified" a what? 320 point unit? So, he will be shooting and or charging the crushers. Running away does signifigantly take away from the enemys firepower.

I play daemons, lately I've been playing with fatecrusher as that's what I took to NOVA. EVERY game I have ever lsot with daemons has been soely to the fact that my opponent knew what he was doing, and got the jump on my daemons the turn that only half my army hit the table. In every case thus far this has meant charging into fatecrusher. Running away gives me the oppurtunity to land other units to trap you with my turn 2 deep strikes. That is why good daemon players run at least 2 hammer units (for me 2 squads of crushers) and put one in each wave.

Obviously guard and tau, and a few other armies dont have these options but that is why they easily fold to fatecrusher.

By the way torrent of fire does NOTHING to bloodcrushers when next to fateweaver and if your killing fateweaver with shooting you're not running away.

Playing theory hammer with daemons does not work, mainly because of too many variables, but also because until you play games with (or against) a daemon army (with the daemon units put into question), you will never understand what they are truely worth, because there is no direct synergetiic value between most units. It's all how you play with them, vs math/theoryhammer and such.

i play fatecrusher , i find it very , very successful.. the 1st mistake a lot of people make is shoot big guns at fatewaever. i also team up 2 sets of flamer just for anti tank , the glance on a 4 is amazing it stops vehicles where you need to , it wipes out terminators with ease, and it gets rid of problem troops in general. you do have to be very aggressive with daemons, so why hold back with flamers, i am in no way discounting fiends , for they are amazing as well. but i have found success in fatecrusher

Only one unit of bloodcrushers? Well as long as you don't go all out on crushers (as in 2-3 full units), its probably not as bad as what I normally see posted. Though I don't really like flamers since they are very expensive (per wound). Nothing else its a fire magnet, but with 2 units of flamers, what else do you take?

Fatecrusher might become more popular at the flgs level now that it's not so bloody expensive to collect the army....

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Fatecrusher might become more popular at the flgs level now that it's not so bloody expensive to collect the army....

very true! save like 40% or so on the new plastics?

dont play too much daemons though. have little experience what everything does

yeah. it used to be like 40 for 1 now its 55 for 3. blood crushers just have power weapons and a really good statline. no special rules.


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oh and furious charge

Yeah, the price change is kind of what brought it up in my mind. I REALLY wish they had made plastic fiends. Plastic seekers... yeah ok, I'll convert some chariots of slaanesh out of them. Pink horrors, yeah they aren't that bad if you want some shooting. Plastic DP... yeah awesome. But plastic bloodcrushers? meh, it encourages a type of list that some people really like, but that I've had no trouble beating in the past.

The reason I'm even playing 40k daemons is my fantasy daemon army got nerfed by the change in how fear and terror work in that game. I had a Slaaneshi centered LD bomb army, and it really doesn't work anymore. So I'm now changing bases and converting up something for 40k that has a good chance of winning.

yeah I heard they took a hit in fantasy. theres a guy in my area who went practically unbeaten for 6 months with a demons of slaanesh army in 40k. that was a while back before the guard and blood angels books so idk how it would fare now, but it was hell on wheels fighting it back then. you had 1 turn to shoot them. then you were dead. demons are so freakish alot of people dont know how to deal with it (or play it for that matter) the new demon prince model is pretty sick btw. All I can think when I see that right handed axe is "skarbrand conversion."
AF

Dude, if they made plastic fiends, I would be collecting daemons right now. They would be my elite choices hands down.

Personally, I don't like bloodcrushers, mostly because I don't like Khorne (kill, kill, kill, *yawn*).

Plastic horrors is very nice, but I wished the plastic plaguebearers came through...

And going off-topic... why wouldn't a slannesh DoC army work? I mean you're troops are much more reliable.

Though getting to re roll failed panic tests is probably good enough?

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Dude, if they made plastic fiends, I would be collecting daemons right now. They would be my elite choices hands down.

Personally, I don't like bloodcrushers, mostly because I don't like Khorne (kill, kill, kill, *yawn*).

Plastic horrors is very nice, but I wished the plastic plaguebearers came through...

And going off-topic... why wouldn't a slannesh DoC army work? I mean you're troops are much more reliable.

Though getting to re roll failed panic tests is probably good enough?

The slaanesh rules of panic only work in the WoC book. In daemons there is no panic, all units are ItP. The reason why slaanesh DoC stopped working in WHFB is it relied on a gimmick of how fear and terror worked. Slaanesh and daemons have several things that lower a units leadership. In 7th ed you had to take a test to avoid running away when a terror causing unit was near, or if a terror or fear causing unit charged. Also they have a gift that forces you to charge (generating a LD test too) if you couldn't you had to flee. So the Slaanesh LD bomb army would win the game without actually engaging in combat. (you also had a spell that caused stupidity as the #1 spell in lore of slaanesh) Fear and terror now do not work that way, in fact its been nerfed REALLY hard. Daemons still fare well, being really good in combat helps with that (VC got hit so hard many people are giving up on them) but slaanesh daemons are about speed and LD, and LD no longer is as powerful, and getting there fast doesn't matter if you are hitting with nerf bats.

Fiends are good, really good. However they do not work well against everything. If your opponent is smart enough to place units in cover a humble space marine assault squad will cut down half your fiends. On the assault fiends can't take down a unit of marines in one turn which means you have to be carefull that the marines don't have a counter assault ready. Toss in a FnP blood angel's squad and you are looking at even less. Nob biker's, normal nob squads, even mega armored nobz are a rough sell for fiends to get through. Banshee's like to munch on doomed fiends, as do dark eldar wych's. Genestealers and ravener's because of their higher initiatives and high attacks hurt as well.

I'm sure there are a ton more, but I just wanted to show the diversity of armies that have units that can deal well with fiends. Flamers are good against a large portion of those units up there and the things that flamers are bad at the fiends are good at.

Flamer's also allow you to damage on the drop. No other elite choice actually allows you to do something the turn you land. Drop close and flame your target, drop back and either hide for a next round or take some str4 ap4 shots at someone.

I use both 0_o
While fiends are great, and i do use them, they are limited.
The are highly mobile and hit like a bus, but the lack of toughness and save kills them off far too quickly.

Crushers are tough enough to withstand small arms and even the odd las comming thier way.
They have FC power weapons with a decent number of attacks.
Overall they are a solid unit.
True, they arent fast, but they more than make up for that in combat.
Simply pin a unit in place with a cheap unit, then throw the crushers at them.

They also work as termie hunters.





flamers are an aquired taste to say the least.
Using them as a suicide single shot unit is simply wasting alot of points.
Main idea of them is to thin out or kill a unit, then let another unit charge in and finish them off.

Glancing vehicles to death is usually hard to do, but 6 flamers get 3 glances on average.
Simply a case of making a vehicle useless.
since they get that glance, things like land raiders go down somewhat easier than usual.
Meaning thats far less las being shot at a prince or greater daemon.

Also, using flamers as target eliminators is allways nice.
Find a tough unit that will give you problems, throw a unit of seekers towards them with an icon.
Simply drop the flamers in, open fire and job done (seekers may have to finish up)

Also, after that the other player is then forced to shoot one target or another, meaning that either your seekers or flamers are free to wander about again. (never had a player kill both as they tend to shoot the 3 princes or 2 greater daemons alot)

I've ran all 3 of the elite choices discussed.

I take flamers every time no question asked. In team work with the MAsque it is devastating. I also have another herald with Pavanne as well, this one runs with the daemonettes. Throw in some soul grinders for some more template love.

Also with this movement it helps out the crushers and the fiends. The synergy makes these units useful.

I just started using fiends, have a squad of 3. I think that they performed well. However I've only used them against orks so far. Their ability to seriously reach out and touch someone is amazing.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Dude, if they made plastic fiends, I would be collecting daemons right now. They would be my elite choices hands down.

Personally, I don't like bloodcrushers, mostly because I don't like Khorne (kill, kill, kill, *yawn*).

Plastic horrors is very nice, but I wished the plastic plaguebearers came through...

And going off-topic... why wouldn't a slannesh DoC army work? I mean you're troops are much more reliable.

Though getting to re roll failed panic tests is probably good enough?

Just buy the plastic spawn kits. Both kits have enough similarities, and the Fiend models are ugly anways. The spawn kit fits the bill, is customizable, cheaper, and plastic!

Acardia wrote:I've ran all 3 of the elite choices discussed.

I take flamers every time no question asked. In team work with the MAsque it is devastating. I also have another herald with Pavanne as well, this one runs with the daemonettes. Throw in some soul grinders for some more template love.

Also with this movement it helps out the crushers and the fiends. The synergy makes these units useful.

I just started using fiends, have a squad of 3. I think that they performed well. However I've only used them against orks so far. Their ability to seriously reach out and touch someone is amazing.

Against armies that are a bit more balanced than orks (able to shoot long range and hit things) units of 3 fiends will often get shot up quite a bit. Since they are pretty cheap, it doesn't hurt all that much. But Its usually better to take units of 6, that way there is enough models left after a round of shooting that they can do enough damage.

Interestingly enough I find Pavane works best in armies that don't have daemonettes. The reason is armies without daemonettes generally don't have assault grenades, so need to drag units out of cover. Armies with daemonettes just assault into cover, or fleet towards units other non fleet models can't reach.

If I were to make a blood crusher list, I would probably put in 3 heralds on chariots with pavane and the normal upgrades of H&R and +1S, and the masque. Being able to potentially drag multiple units into range of a multi charge of bloodcrushers actually makes good use of their killing power (they tend to kill too much and get left in the open during the opponents shooting phase) The problem with that is lack of infantry based armies these days.