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So I was reading my High Elf book and saw Teclis and had to think about something. Teclis's loremaster ability says he gets to decide the lore he is taking before each *game*.

Since I work in a gaming store I read through some of the other Army books. None of the other mages I came across said that they decide their lore before each game.....

So my question is, in a tournament with say 3 matches, Do I get to pick my lore each time with Teclis?

They have said in the BRB that any rules in an army book takes precedence such as HE with 2 handed weapons still always striking first so unless it has been errated and I can't remember reading that then yep what the army book says

Technically EVERY wizard choses his Lore before each game.

you roll for spells as you deploy.


only Wizards that take special lores where they know the entire lore don't roll for the spells.


Teclis has the Loremaster rule. this means he simply choses a lore and knows all spells.



as far as for a Tournament it depends on how the TO is handling magic. whether you choose a lore and roll for spells for each game or choose before the first game and are stuck with those spells for the entire day.

ask your TO

Yes, he picks before each game. Nothing wrong with that at all. It isn't being "that guy", it is just a perk of an extremely expensive character with no armor or ward save and T2. Now, to be that guy, be sure and throw down a Purple Sun every turn.

Grey Templar wrote:Technically EVERY wizard choses his Lore before each game.

you roll for spells as you deploy.


only Wizards that take special lores where they know the entire lore don't roll for the spells.


Teclis has the Loremaster rule. this means he simply choses a lore and knows all spells.



as far as for a Tournament it depends on how the TO is handling magic. whether you choose a lore and roll for spells for each game or choose before the first game and are stuck with those spells for the entire day.

ask your TO

In a tournament you are never stuck with your same spells from game 1. You are just stuck with the same lore. You roll for your spells at the beginning of each game.

again it depends on how that Tournament is run.

RAW: you pick the lore before every game. and spells during deployment.

the rules for linked games must be decided by the TO.


if that is how your TO runs it then that is how it is.

Grey Templar wrote:again it depends on how that Tournament is run.

RAW: you pick the lore before every game. and spells during deployment.

the rules for linked games must be decided by the TO.


if that is how your TO runs it then that is how it is.

It shouldn't be a matter of how your TO runs it...It should be a matter of him running it right unless he is creating house rules for a special tournament.

The RAW on page 134:

Wizards and Spell Lores
........Although you won't generate the spells that your Wizards know until you start to play your game you do need to make a note in your army roster of which spell lore each of your Wizards will use..

You select your lore when you create your army, and you generate your spells at the start of each game.

This is normally how it is done, but the Teclis entry states he picks his lore before each game.

I know that this is off topic, but I did notice something interesting about Teclis's high loremaster. The original text was "any successful casting roll which includes a double" for causing Irresistible Force. The amendment specifies "on any successful casting roll that is a double, however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll includes a double 6" for IF.

So Teclis can choose his lore before the game starts (at some undetermined time), but he can't get an IF on three dice because a 4,4,1 isn't a double (it's three dice that includes a double).

solkan wrote:I know that this is off topic, but I did notice something interesting about Teclis's high loremaster. The original text was "any successful casting roll which includes a double" for causing Irresistible Force. The amendment specifies "on any successful casting roll that is a double, however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll includes a double 6" for IF.

So Teclis can choose his lore before the game starts (at some undetermined time), but he can't get an IF on three dice because a 4,4,1 isn't a double (it's three dice that includes a double).

Looks like within those 3 dice there is a double to me..It's obvious it was typed up quickly, we all know how GW is.

"Includes a double" can be in an infinite set of dice. You're just taking 2 out of that set.

When dealt a hand of cards you can get a pair of kings even though you have 5 cards not 2.

Grey Templar wrote:again it depends on how that Tournament is run.

RAW: you pick the lore before every game. and spells during deployment.

You keep repeating this, however it is *not* true any longer. It was true in 7th ed, however 8th ed specifically states that you MUST pick your lore when creating your roster.

As for Teclis - he is the only wizard in the game who can choose, currently.

I know that this is off topic, but I did notice something interesting about Teclis's high loremaster. The original text was "any successful casting roll which includes a double" for causing Irresistible Force. The amendment specifies "on any successful casting roll that is a double, however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll includes a double 6" for IF.

So Teclis can choose his lore before the game starts (at some undetermined time), but he can't get an IF on three dice because a 4,4,1 isn't a double (it's three dice that includes a double)

I noticed this before in the FAQ and just assumed it was typo.

But would it mean if he rolled 3 dice and got 4,4,4 he can't IF as it IS a triple. not a double!!

There is no term for "triple". Does it have two dice that equal a double? Yes. Done.

You can roll a double on 3 dice. To suggest otherwise ignores the English language to even greater heights than normal.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You can roll a double on 3 dice. To suggest otherwise ignores the English language to even greater heights than normal.

Since when has that stopped anyone from arguing for their advantage?

kingcr02 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:again it depends on how that Tournament is run.

RAW: you pick the lore before every game. and spells during deployment.

the rules for linked games must be decided by the TO.


if that is how your TO runs it then that is how it is.

It shouldn't be a matter of how your TO runs it...It should be a matter of him running it right unless he is creating house rules for a special tournament.

The RAW on page 134:

Wizards and Spell Lores
........Although you won't generate the spells that your Wizards know until you start to play your game you do need to make a note in your army roster of which spell lore each of your Wizards will use..

You select your lore when you create your army, and you generate your spells at the start of each game.

This is normally how it is done, but the Teclis entry states he picks his lore before each game.

This +1

Teclis is just special that way, other wizards are not. You aren't "that guy" for playing Teclis the way he is supposed to be played. That being said, your TO should be asking for army rosters ahead of time to make sure that Lores are already chosen for each mage, except Teclis of course, along with the regular stuff they check.

DarkAngelHopeful

I disagree. This wording was just re-stating what was true for all 7th edition. Page 134 of the BRB (the exact same page quoted above) in the margin says:

"At the time of writing, some Warhammer Armies books contain a different army selection system from the one prsented here. However, and in a one-off contradiction to the principle stated under Basic Rules and Advanced Rules (see page 11), the system included here replaces and takes precedence over whatever system is printed in your Warhammer Armies book."

Page 11 refers to the fact that normally, the army book rules take precedence. However, for the army selection system (pages 134-135 of the BRB) the rulebook takes precedence, and it says so right on the page.

Farther down the page on 134, it says "...you do need to make a note in your army roster of which spell lore each of your Wizards will choose".

This takes precedence over individual special rules, as well as the army book entires, as those are both listed on page 11, and this page specifically says that it overrides the army book entries and the principle stated on page 11.

Teclis has an entry saying he chooses his lore before each game. Fine, he chooses- as long as it's the same as the lore listed for him on your army list, since that's what the BRB now requires for ALL wizards, on page 134-135, which are the ONLY pages in the BRB that specifically state they override the army books and individual model rules, which normally take precedence (page 11).

This is the RAW. These two pages override everything else, and they say your wizard must list his lore on the army roster. If someone played me in a tournament with Teclis, and tried to take a different lore than a previous game, I would call over the TO and have it out until this was resolved, and if it wasn't I'd likely refuse to play them. It's right there in black and white in the BRB, specifically stating that it overrides everything else.

Imho, even the wording in Teclis' rule wasn't intended to give him anything special (just re-stating 7th ed position) but that's neither here nor there. The point is, since a LOT of things could have been worded like that (doesn't a slann get to choose his lore, too?) they included these two pages in the BRB and specifically noted that in this on-off case they override everything else.

RAW, there's no getting around that phrase. The army slection system (134-135, summarized at the bottom of 135) takes precedence over everything.

RiTides,

You have made a compelling argument. I can see how what you have said may in fact be true. The only thing I would say about pp. 134-135 taking precedence over army books completely, is that the High Elves FAQ 1.1 states that High Elves have no limit to duplicate choices for special and rare. So, in at least one instance, these pages do not take precedence.

Right Dark Angel, but that isn't really relevant to Teclis picking his lore.

Good catch RiTides.

Edit: darn it. Must remember to read ALL the pages before I post...

Good point, DarkAngelHopeful, but I guess GW does need to be allowed to use FAQs to clarify even sections that say they override the army books and unit special rules (i.e. nothing is written in stone and can always be FAQ'ed). However, the fact that nothing requiring Teclis to pick his lore was mentioned in the FAQ was in one of the posts above, and I think pages 134-135 of the main rulebook clearly show that there was no need to address his choosing a lore in the FAQ- it was already addressed and overridden in the main rulebook on those pages.

Interesting catch RiTides.

I agree that in this situation the BRB clearly trumps the army book.

The high elf book was specifically erratad to change the army choices. However it made no mention of this...

Looks like BRB trumps army book, teclis must have his lore on his army roster.

Ok, I'll bite on the paragraph that RiTides has brought up.

The wording in the margin of page 134 says that the rules on page 134/135 take precedence over the army selection section of the High Elf army book.

However, the rules for Teclis choosing his spells are not in the army selection section of the High Elf army book. They are, in fact, completely seperate from the rules for building an army.

So if I remove the section in the High Elf army book on page 89 and substitute pages 134 and 135 from the BRB, I then still have a special rule under Teclis' rules which is different than the army selection section. Since, for all rules not contained in the army selection section, the individual army book takes precedence, Teclis may use his rule to pick a lore before every game rather than when building an army.

pg. 134 isn't just a replacement of pg. 89. The system here replaces the system in your High Elf book. The system here says you have to pick your lore during list construction.

Looks like pansy elf book trumps BRB book, Teclis gets to choose the lore before each game.

Except that the BRB specifically says this is one of the times it trumps army book.

I was always rather curious as to why the terminology used in his description was so very different than any other mages terminology (in the high elf book)

Daydream wrote:The wording in the margin of page 134 says that the rules on page 134/135 take precedence over the army selection section of the High Elf army book.

However, the rules for Teclis choosing his spells are not in the army selection section of the High Elf army book. They are, in fact, completely seperate from the rules for building an army.

Here is the exact wording:
"At the time of writing, some Warhammer Armies books contain a different army selection system from the one presented here. However, and in a one-off contradiction to the principle stated under Basic Rules and Advanced Rules (see page 11), the system included here replaces and takes precedence over whatever system is printed in your Warhammer Armies book."

The principle referred to on page 11 is that normally, the army books takes precedence over the main rulebook, and a specific rule takes precedence over a general rule. The above paragraph states that it is a one-off contradiction of this principle and "takes precedence over whatever system is printed in your Warhammer Armies book." The "army selection system" being replaced includes how mages choose their spells (right on the bottom of page 134) and so overrides whatever system for choosing spells was written in the army books. This includes "special" rules, such as the ones for special characters, as I will explain below.

The fact that Teclis' entry is a "specific" rule, which would normally override a "general" one, doesn't matter- as these two pages of the BRB override the specific-over-general principle (referenced on page 11), as well as the army-book-over-BRB convention (also on page 11).

There's no way to take an entry from an army book allowing a mage to choose his spells, and let it override these pages. If you do it with Teclis, you could do it with any number of other special characters rules, and this section seems to have been put in there specifically to be a "catch all" to cover all of the different instances where this would come into conflict with the current system.

Pretty black-and-white, imho! If a page saying it overrides what is written in the army books and takes precedence over the specific-over-general-rules principle isn't enough to close an issue, what is?

@ RiTides

The army selection system in the High Elf army book is on page 89 of the book. I agree that the BRB takes precedence over anything written on page 89 as the BRB "takes precedence over whatever system is printed in your Warhammer Armies book."

What this tells us is that page 89 is out, so if Teclis' rule was part of the army selection rules it would be discounted. Teclis' special rule, however, is not part of the army selection system. As it is not part of the army selection system printed in the High Elf Army book, the text on 134 regarding precedence does not apply to Teclis' special rule.

This leaves us with a general rule in the BRB, and a specific rule in the Army Book, which takes us to the principle on page 11 that the Army Book takes precedence in this case.

Taken to an extreme, I could see it being argued that Teclis must pick a lore during the list building phase, but due to his special rule is free to choose any lore before the game.

Page 29 - Choosing your lore

''The choice of which lore each of your wizard models know for a particular battle must be made when choosing your army, as explained on page 134''

Then add on what RiTides has said!

Teclis be breaking Wizardry law!!

Also i don't even see how this even became a rule anyway. As the armybook was made for 7th i thought you always could pick your lores before the game starts back then? It was just simply stating that?
Could be wrong.