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Fiends and tzeralds w/ bolt are good. Tzeentch DP's with bolt. PB for objectives and letters as shock troops.


Thoughts, anyone?

I was just thinking of making a topic about this. I have been toying with making a DoC list to try for my game tomorrow. I tried a mono Khorne proxied list once and had a rough time. I really do believe that you have to mix factions. Since a player manged first in Ard Boyz with them it does seem possible to have a balanced and competitive list. Though there seem to be some musts IMO.

Chaiots of Tzeench with We are Legion, Master of Sorcery, and Doombolt- speedy, cheap, shoots multiple units, and a rare anti tank shooting. Take 2 at least.

Fiends- lots of attacks and speed

Plague bearers- tough troops for objectives

Other than that I don't know what else is "must have" but experienced Daemon players could chime in here.

You may want to put this topic in the "Army Lists" subforum.

I'm currently building something along the lines of:

4 tzeralds on chariot w/ bolt

3x6 fiends

3x5 Plaguebearers for objectives

2x8 Bloodletters as shock troops

2-3 tzeentch DP w/ bolt, for antitank and a little daemonzilla flavour.

Also a friend suggested using 2 small 3-4man units of screamers, 1 in each wave, just to force the enemy to keep his tanks moving or take auto meltabomb hits, which I think would work rather nicely, and there isn't too much competition in the fast attack slot anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaveL wrote:You may want to put this topic in the "Army Lists" subforum.

Meant for this thread to just be a general discussion of what people consider competitive units in the daemon codex, and other tactics and stuff that has worked for them etc

The best FA choice IMHO is probably hounds. A big unit or two gives a nice fast S5 (on the charge) unit. If you take them, the upgrade model is pretty decent, as moves though cover is a good rule to get.

My personal project is based on heralds of slaanesh on chariots (H&R +1 strength). PB and bloodletters as troops, fiends, fleshounds, and tzeentch DPs.

You may want to put this topic in the "Army Lists" subforum.

There's not as much a real list being critiqued as a topic about general daemon units and tactica.

4 tzeralds on chariot w/ bolt

3x6 fiends

3x5 Plaguebearers for objectives

2x8 Bloodletters as shock troops

2-3 tzeentch DP w/ bolt, for antitank and a little daemonzilla flavour.

Also a friend suggested using 2 small 3-4man units of screamers, 1 in each wave, just to force the enemy to keep his tanks moving or take auto meltabomb hits, which I think would work rather nicely, and there isn't too much competition in the fast attack slot anyway.

This looks like a nice start. I have been thinking about a Keeper of Secrets and 2 Nurgle Daemon Princes for some punch along with 2 chariots with bolt, MoS, and We are legion. Plague Bearers x2 units of 5 plus maybe 2 units of either Bloodletters or Daemonettes.

Chariot of Tzeench
Chariot of Tzeench
Keeper of Secrets

6 Fiends

5 Plague Bearers
5 Plague Bearers
8 Daemonettes
8 Daemonettes

DP of Nurgle
DP of Nurgle

The task is what I can fit into 1500 points but I do mean to try something like this maybe tomorrow. I will post how it goes if I do.

Legion is nice, but not strictly necessary for the chariots. I'd drop it from all the chariots and add in something else.

Daemonettes, in small numbers, die quickly to small arms fire or frag missiles.

Small units of screamers might be useful, as long as you don't expect them to survive. I've had plenty of opponents panic at screamers... and even if there aren't any vehicles, they're still S4 T4 jetbikes with a 4++ save. That said, each squad will be a separate KP, which to me makes it not really worth it.

The best FA choice IMHO is probably hounds. A big unit or two gives a nice fast S5 (on the charge) unit. If you take them, the upgrade model is pretty decent, as moves though cover is a good rule to get.

I would tend to keep away from them.
FC is about the only thing going for them.

Seekers - Very fast, alot of attacks and rending: pretty much the same as fiends except lower strength and attacks.
Well worth taking.

Screamers - Jetbike meltabombs: Speaks for its self really.
As said, it forces the player to keep his armour moving or lose it.

Hounds have higher strength base, and higher toughness. Seekers are also more expensive per model (in fact, are more expensive per wound than fiends). Ideally nearly all of a daemon army should be similar tougness and strength, and all should be fast. (at least IMHO) It give the opponent actual problems selecting what target to fire at, as opposed to high strength here, small arms here, you can assault this but not that.

So that means lots of similarly priced units with similar base stat lines.

Example:
4x heralds of slaanesh with +1 S and hit and run on chariots
4x5 plague bearers (for durable scoring units and speed bumps)
3x6 units of fiends with +1 S model in each
2x9 units of hounds

total: 1500

5 units with rending, the fiends can threaten anything (and the heralds can even glance AV14) all units other than the plague guys attack at S5 on the charge, all units have at least T4. All units (other than the plague guys) can threaten a very large area. All units are 15 points per wound (except the heralds whom are 17 per wound, and the fiends are just under 16 when you include the upgrade cost) Sure it has no shooting, but with daemons, even if you take maximum shooting, you STILL won't have enough to handle what people are taking (and you are crippling your assault ability to do so)

Personally I don't own this list yet, but I'm working towards it. I currently run:

2x heralds of slaanesh with +1 S and h&r and chariots
1x keeper (no upgrades to keep it cheap)
2 units of 3 fiends with +1 strength upgrade model
2 units of 5 blood letters
2 units of 5 plague bearers
2 units of 5 daemonettes
1x10 unit of hounds
1 tzeentch DP with bolt and breath

DaveL wrote:Legion is nice, but not strictly necessary for the chariots. I'd drop it from all the chariots and add in something else.

Daemonettes, in small numbers, die quickly to small arms fire or frag missiles.

Small units of screamers might be useful, as long as you don't expect them to survive. I've had plenty of opponents panic at screamers... and even if there aren't any vehicles, they're still S4 T4 jetbikes with a 4++ save. That said, each squad will be a separate KP, which to me makes it not really worth it.

My fiancee plays almost entirely Slaneesh. 120 Daemonettes, a Keep of Secrets, and a Daemon Prince for under 2,000 is a pretty tough...if simply, list for under 2k points.

DaveL wrote:Legion is nice, but not strictly necessary for the chariots. I'd drop it from all the chariots and add in something else.

Daemonettes, in small numbers, die quickly to small arms fire or frag missiles.

Small units of screamers might be useful, as long as you don't expect them to survive. I've had plenty of opponents panic at screamers... and even if there aren't any vehicles, they're still S4 T4 jetbikes with a 4++ save. That said, each squad will be a separate KP, which to me makes it not really worth it.

I play a mates deamon codex a little bit and I've always found screamers effective, people don't seem to have a good handle on how many points to throw at them even when their not playing tank-hunters. I guess I thinking of them as Deffkoptas so the KP doesn't bother me that much.

notabot187 wrote:
Example:
4x heralds of slaanesh with +1 S and hit and run on chariots
4x5 plague bearers (for durable scoring units and speed bumps)
3x6 units of fiends with +1 S model in each
2x9 units of hounds

total: 1500

I don't consider this to be a competative list. They aren't popular by any stretch but you have absolutely no way to touch a monolith. Land Raider's are going to be a pain in the you know what. Wych cult has the initiative over your fiends and your hounds and should be able to take you in hth. A stealer shock list and/or ravener's and/or super gaunt farm nids aren't doing you any favor's either.

Anyone else that doesn't have initiative on you just needs to sit in terrain. Space Wolves with counter-charge hunkered in terrain shooting bolter's at you will do the same thing. Or a guard blob squad with counter-attack.

At the very least you need to put pavane's on the heralds to pull stuff out of terrain for the rest of your unit's. Even with that you are going to struggle against mech. Go ahead and pop the ride that means you are clumped up for whatever is now getting out of the iron pill box of doom

No way to touch a monolith is fine in my book. Really. They aren't good, and necrons are really bad (bring a monolith? 2 or 3? Good luck with stopping phase out) A LR can be penned by a S6 fiend. And can be glanced to uselessness by the heralds (whom have FC) and the S5 fiends. If you have done the math taking out a LR with just about anything in the daemon book is hard, the best options are bolt of tzeentch (which you can't really get enough of without gimping your lists CC ability) things with MC rule, and fiends (volume of attacks do work)

Wych cult is a rare build of one of the rarest books in the game. Daemons aren't the best book, and obviously they are going to have bad matchups. One of their bad matchups being an extremely rare build is acceptable to me.

Stealer shock is not what competitive nid players typically run anymore. Daemons aren't afraid of gaunts or tervigons either. I personally have only seen one ravener heavy nids list in action, so my experience on that is limited.

The heralds have assault and defensive nades, if needed they can assualt into cover... and I7 7 attacks with rending on the charge and 5 wounds IS going to hurt most things that would "hunker" down in the woods.

Daemons are pretty much always struggle against mech. Even mono tzeentch with bolt will have problems... since they have less problem breaking the shell, but poor options for actually killing the cargo. With pretty much my entire list having S5 on the charge, it can destroy most tanks (who have AV 10 or 11 on the back). Since they are still competent in CC, assuming enough survive the counter fire, they will eat the cargo. MSU gives the enemy too many targets to kill in the time they have.

You posted some good strawmen, but what do YOU consider to be competitive that also answers what you gave as examples?

notabot187 wrote:You posted some good strawmen, but what do YOU consider to be competitive that also answers what you gave as examples?

I think any competative daemon army either needs to have either grinder's or screamers. Unless you are using 2 bloodthirsters (but I don't usually consider bloodthirsters to be worth the points). A lot of people complain about the bs3 on the soul grinder. I think about it this way. If you shoot a bolt at a rhino with a daemon prince you hit on a 2 and pen on a 4. If you shoot the grinder you hit on a 4, pen on a 2 (seems like just about the same odds to get a penetrate either way), and it's actually better than the 3/4 you have with a herald. Move up to av12 and you get a 4/3 for the grinder, and a 2/5 for the daemon prince. There is a very slight edge to the grinder now 27% for the daemon prince and 33% for the grinder. Moving up to av13 it jumps down to 25% for the grinder and only 13% for the prince.

For a lot of my strawman lists grinder's work well, and funnily enough the other answer is in your troops choices. Horror's, horror's are good at taking out almost all the squishy high init stuff that fiends don't like. Stealer's, wych's, maybe ravenors depending on how many they have (but three wounds is rough to get through). The main problem you have is that the squishy stuff is hiding in cover getting that 4 up save which is why I like to throw some pavane in my army, usually in the form of the masque.

Turn about is fair play, this is my tournament 1850 list for you to have a go at, since I went at yours .

HQ
herald of tzeetnch, chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
herald of tzeetnch, chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
herald of tzeetnch, chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
the masque
Elite
6 fiends, unholy might
6 fiends, unholy might
3 flamers
Troops
5 horrors, bolt of tzeentch
5 horrors, bolt of tzeentch
5 horrors, bolt of tzeentch
5 horrors, bolt of tzeentch
Heavy Support
Soul grinder, phlegm, tongue
Soul grinder, phlegm, tongue
Soul grinder, phlegm, tongue

Warmaster wrote:

notabot187 wrote:You posted some good strawmen, but what do YOU consider to be competitive that also answers what you gave as examples?

I think any competative daemon army either needs to have either grinder's or screamers. Unless you are using 2 bloodthirsters (but I don't usually consider bloodthirsters to be worth the points). A lot of people complain about the bs3 on the soul grinder. I think about it this way. If you shoot a bolt at a rhino with a daemon prince you hit on a 2 and pen on a 4. If you shoot the grinder you hit on a 4, pen on a 2 (seems like just about the same odds to get a penetrate either way), and it's actually better than the 3/4 you have with a herald. Move up to av12 and you get a 4/3 for the grinder, and a 2/5 for the daemon prince. There is a very slight edge to the grinder now 27% for the daemon prince and 33% for the grinder. Moving up to av13 it jumps down to 25% for the grinder and only 13% for the prince.

For a lot of my strawman lists grinder's work well, and funnily enough the other answer is in your troops choices. Horror's, horror's are good at taking out almost all the squishy high init stuff that fiends don't like. Stealer's, wych's, maybe ravenors depending on how many they have (but three wounds is rough to get through). The main problem you have is that the squishy stuff is hiding in cover getting that 4 up save which is why I like to throw some pavane in my army, usually in the form of the masque.

Turn about is fair play, this is my tournament 1850 list for you to have a go at, since I went at yours .

HQ
herald of tzeetnch, chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
herald of tzeetnch, chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
herald of tzeetnch, chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
the masque
Elite
6 fiends, unholy might
6 fiends, unholy might
3 flamers
Troops
5 horrors, bolt of tzeentch
5 horrors, bolt of tzeentch
5 horrors, bolt of tzeentch
5 horrors, bolt of tzeentch
Heavy Support
Soul grinder, phlegm, tongue
Soul grinder, phlegm, tongue
Soul grinder, phlegm, tongue

Fiends, good. Tzeralds, ok. Flamers ok. Grinders... meh. Horrors... no. Horrors really do suck balls, there's no way around it. Ok they have a bs 3 bolt. So out of those 4 horror squads (who cost around 400 points) your getting 2 str 8 ap1 hits per turn. Rest of the unit does nothing to the tank. Then you have to take objectives. Your horrors are sitting out of range, and die to anything that sneezes their way. PB's can comfortably sit on an objective killing nothing yet knowing that they are fulfilling their purpose, as superior objective campers. Every daemon list needs at least 3x5man units of plaguabearers, there's no way around it. Luckily those 3 squads cost only 225 pts. Grinders are ok, but I really do prefer DP's. As grinders are the only vehicles on the board, they take all the anti tank (mainly melta) and die fairly quickly. On the other hand, DP's take then one meltashot, maybe take a wound, and keep on going.

Personally I really don't like so much tzeentch. Sure, you have more reliable anti tank... but what about assault units? Grinders die to the anti tank elements that normally don't have targets (and are large and mishap a fair amount). 2 units of fiends are good, but that is it for your fast assault units (which is required if you are facing anything that can move and still be effective).

The rest of the army is completely ineffective in CC. Sacrificing what daemons are good at for generally bad shooting? I'll pass.

If I were to make my list higher points (1500 is barely enough to get started with daemons, don't come into their own till 1750+) I would add some other units. Starting with a pair of DP of Tzeentch with bolt. (would have to make comprimises in list to fit in depending on list) They have acceptable anti tank ability, (in CC and bolt and breath) and are great fire magnets.

Jabbdo wrote:
Fiends, good. Tzeralds, ok. Flamers ok. Grinders... meh. Horrors... no. Horrors really do suck balls, there's no way around it. Ok they have a bs 3 bolt. So out of those 4 horror squads (who cost around 400 points) your getting 2 str 8 ap1 hits per turn. Rest of the unit does nothing to the tank. Then you have to take objectives. Your horrors are sitting out of range, and die to anything that sneezes their way. PB's can comfortably sit on an objective killing nothing yet knowing that they are fulfilling their purpose, as superior objective campers. Every daemon list needs at least 3x5man units of plaguabearers, there's no way around it. Luckily those 3 squads cost only 225 pts. Grinders are ok, but I really do prefer DP's. As grinders are the only vehicles on the board, they take all the anti tank (mainly melta) and die fairly quickly. On the other hand, DP's take then one meltashot, maybe take a wound, and keep on going.

You'll note all my grinders have both upgrades. If facing a heavy melta list i can sit between 24 to 36 inch's away and pop their transports then those melta's just aren't going to make it too far. I like daemon princes don't get me wrong, but daemon princes pair well when using crushers or flamers, grinders tend to pair better with fiends and heralds. And those 4 wound t5 daemon princes are going to get owned by hydra batteries and loota's whereas the soul grinder's are likely to shrug it off.

What are your superior objective camping plague bearers going to do to the 50 point land speeder or 35 point rhino that contests their objective? Plague bearer's are okay, but I really dislike their lack of threat radius and inability to do any damage. A unit of jetbikes can turbo-boost over and contest a plague bearer objective and even survive a round or two of close combat with said plague bearers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

notabot187 wrote:Personally I really don't like so much tzeentch. Sure, you have more reliable anti tank... but what about assault units? Grinders die to the anti tank elements that normally don't have targets (and are large and mishap a fair amount). 2 units of fiends are good, but that is it for your fast assault units (which is required if you are facing anything that can move and still be effective).

The rest of the army is completely ineffective in CC. Sacrificing what daemons are good at for generally bad shooting? I'll pass.

If I were to make my list higher points (1500 is barely enough to get started with daemons, don't come into their own till 1750+) I would add some other units. Starting with a pair of DP of Tzeentch with bolt. (would have to make comprimises in list to fit in depending on list) They have acceptable anti tank ability, (in CC and bolt and breath) and are great fire magnets.

So you don't consider the grinder's to be good assault unit's? They are better than fiends at taking down genestealers, raveners, nobs, lots of marines don't take fists anymore, making the grinders great for that as well. I look at my army as having 5 assault units, and 4 speed bumps (all my hq's), the masque is awesome at locking down wraithlords, tervigons, etc., until the fiends are clear. And I include enough shooting to scare shooty armies. This is what I consider to be a well rounded army that has an answer for most any list out there.

The grinders do have a fairly large footprint. But it's beneficial when playing in tournaments that are terrain sparse, their large footprint actually gives your fiends something to hide behind.

You said that I have a lot of tzeentch and not enough assault units. Most of my tzeentch units are in my 4 troop squads, I don't really consider plague bearers to be assault squads. I haven't really tried swapping out my chariots for khorne or slaanesh ones, that may lead to interesting results, but I like have the extra bolts. I just prefer the ability to knock out transports from range.

I think 3 grinders with all 3 upgrades are effective, they have superior tatical flexibility.

I've been running a 20 blob of horrors with changling and bolt. Icon, as a focal point. I drop them in in the middle of a few objectives and just shoot infantry in the open.

In our local game there is a lot of orks. So I find that reducing their numbers down before they get to you essential.