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I keep running into this one during games. No one I play with can find a clear answer in the RaW, so what do you guys think?

Commander Dante is not Fearless, but joining a Fearless unit makes him Fearless as long as he is in the unit. If the Fearless unit is wiped out in an assault but Dante remains, does he take a morale check or No Retreat saves for the combat resolution?

Even though the answer seems obvious at first, the rulebook says Independent Characters can never leave a unit during the assault phase.

He doesn't leave the unit. The unit ceases to exist.

Therefore since not being joined to a fearless unit doesn't grant the fearless special rule, he is not fearless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I mean is, a character cannot be joined to a unit with no models.

He remains part of the unit until the end of his movement phase, meaning he takes no retreat.

nosferatu1001 wrote:He remains part of the unit until the end of his movement phase, meaning he takes no retreat.

+1 for nos.

The only time an Independent Character can stop or start being part of a unit is in his own Movement phase. So yes, he does end up being attached to a unit of no models.

None of the models in his unit have no retreat (they are all dead by now).

He's a part of the unit, but no more models in the unit have fearless. Therefore, he's no longer fearless.

Vene wrote:He's a part of the unit, but no more models in the unit have fearless. Therefore, he's no longer fearless.

But that doesn't apply until the phase is complete. For the entire phase he is fearless. The unit "gave" him Fearless and he keeps it until the phase is over. He is the "last" model with Fearless. When the phase is over the Indepedent Character rules then apply.

Alvar wrote:

Vene wrote:He's a part of the unit, but no more models in the unit have fearless. Therefore, he's no longer fearless.

But that doesn't apply until the phase is complete. For the entire phase he is fearless. The unit "gave" him Fearless and he keeps it until the phase is over. He is the "last" model with Fearless. When the phase is over the Indepedent Character rules then apply.

Wouldn't they come back at the end of his movement? Since that is the only time you can join/leave a squad. And that would mean that he doesn't have move through cover or skilled rider during his move.

I think no more Fearless.
Much I would prefer it the other way.

True:
Fearless is granted to IC by joining a Fearless unit.

IC cannot leave during the assault phase.

The IC is not leaving a unit, that unit is destroyed.

False:
Rules ever state when Fearless is lost by an IC joining a Fearless unit.

Questionable:
Models need to leave a unit that was destroyed. . .

Really?



More to read!

Alvar wrote:

Vene wrote:He's a part of the unit, but no more models in the unit have fearless. Therefore, he's no longer fearless.

But that doesn't apply until the phase is complete. For the entire phase he is fearless. The unit "gave" him Fearless and he keeps it until the phase is over. He is the "last" model with Fearless. When the phase is over the Indepedent Character rules then apply.

So, let's do this a little bit differently. By that logic, you're also saying that if a leadership 7 unit with a leadership 8 sergeant losses their sergeant the unit is still leadership 8 for the rest of the phase.

Vene wrote:So, let's do this a little bit differently. By that logic, you're also saying that if a leadership 7 unit with a leadership 8 sergeant losses their sergeant the unit is still leadership 8 for the rest of the phase.

No, that is not true.

Firstly, Sergeants do not follow the same rules as IC's.
Secondly, Leadership is not a USR.
Thirdly, the rules for taking Leadership tests tell you explicitly to use the highest value in the unit. The highest value in a unit with only Ld7 models is 7.

kirsanth wrote:
IC cannot leave during the assault phase.
The IC is not leaving a unit, that unit is destroyed.

Questionable:
Models need to leave a unit that was destroyed. . .

All this reminds me of the discussion about whether a unit has preformed the act of Disembarking to attain the state of disembarked after rolling a Vehicle - Explodes! result. The IC hasn't left the unit so much as the unit has left the IC, by dying. In both bullet points (5th and 6th on the right from the top) on page 48 BRB the IC is restricted from leaving the unit during the Shooting phase, Assault phase, while Locked in Combat, and while Falling back. There is no such restriction on the unit leaving the IC, by dying.

Leez wrote:

kirsanth wrote:
IC cannot leave during the assault phase.
The IC is not leaving a unit, that unit is destroyed.

Questionable:
Models need to leave a unit that was destroyed. . .

All this reminds me of the discussion about whether a unit has preformed the act of Disembarking to attain the state of disembarked after rolling a Vehicle - Explodes! result. The IC hasn't left the unit so much as the unit has left the IC, by dying. In both bullet points (5th and 6th on the right from the top) on page 48 BRB the IC is restricted from leaving the unit during the Shooting phase, Assault phase, while Locked in Combat, and while Falling back. There is no such restriction on the unit leaving the IC, by dying.

Very true, but,on page 49 (Independent Characters and assaults) Last sentence 2nd paragraph.

"Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined(from determining assault results onwards)

That would have to also mean the "check morale" portion of the assault phase. So the IC would infact still be fearless.
"once all attacks have been resolved

Alvar wrote:

Leez wrote:

kirsanth wrote:
IC cannot leave during the assault phase.
The IC is not leaving a unit, that unit is destroyed.

Questionable:
Models need to leave a unit that was destroyed. . .

All this reminds me of the discussion about whether a unit has preformed the act of Disembarking to attain the state of disembarked after rolling a Vehicle - Explodes! result. The IC hasn't left the unit so much as the unit has left the IC, by dying. In both bullet points (5th and 6th on the right from the top) on page 48 BRB the IC is restricted from leaving the unit during the Shooting phase, Assault phase, while Locked in Combat, and while Falling back. There is no such restriction on the unit leaving the IC, by dying.

Very true, but,on page 49 (Independent Characters and assaults) Last sentence 2nd paragraph.

"Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined(from determining assault results onwards)

That would have to also mean the "check morale" portion of the assault phase. So the IC would infact still be fearless.
"once all attacks have been resolved

I would like to Preface this with a Statement:
I am Not Taking Sides; merely playing devils advocate.

You have contradicted yourself here.

This would leave us to 1 of 2 things:
1)By your assertion That Check morale is part of resolving all attacks then every non-fearless IC joined to a fearless squad would still have to check morale and possibly flee/get swept. this is because you claim that Check morale is part of resolving attacks and as the IC does not return to being part of the squad until after attacks are resolved that IC is then not attached to the fearless squad when morale is checked.

2)We go back to the IC rejoins the squad before the check morale step of the assault phase(the Correct read as after application of unsaved wounds and the removal of models during I step 1, all attacks have been resolved); and if the squad was Wiped the IC has no squad to rejoin.

@ Kel

Your under the assumption that i said he "left" the squad. He never left it. The only IC "special rule" in the assault phase is that an IC must be in base to base to make CC attacks. Other than that he is the same as every other member of that unit.

And yes technically he takes a morale check, but he passes because he is Fearless.

I've looked at this some more, and I believe now that in this particular case Dante (or any other non-fearless IC) does not take No Retreat saves. He will take a morale check.

This is because the unit is no longer Fearless. It contains no models with that USR anymore. Even if he is still joined to the unit, it is irrelevant.

The whole time we have been looking at whether he is still joined to the unit or not, and I don't think that even matters now.

There is a problem the other way around still. If a Fearless IC is joined to a unit that is not Fearless and the unit is wiped out in an assault, then he may still have to take a morale check at the combat resolution. Simply being in a unit removes his Fearless USR (unless the unit was also Fearless). Unlike my original situation, this problem DOES hinge on whether the IC is still joined to the unit.

Not independent characters, but still USR:

If 15 ork boyz lose 8 orkz in the assault, they are not fearless when you check morale, correct? I don't have an ork codex, so perhaps its clarified a bit better there...

different situation, as you check Mob Rule at the time you are called on to make the leadership test.

IC joining is different - the Fearless USR is gained by the IC and is only lost when he leaves the unit, which is at the end of the following movement phase. NR! wounds therefore apply.

So if the IC is granting fearless, and he dies in the shooting phase, the squad that received fearless from him still has it for the assault phase after he died as well?

Yes, however not many ICs grant fearless (Chaplains come to mind) so it isnt an issue normally.

At the time of the test, there are no models in the unit that grant Fearless to the IC. So no Fearless. He can still be part of the "unit"(even tho it has been destroyed) and not have fearless if there are no models remaining with the fearless USR. So IMO, he takes a Morale test.

@Brock. Point of order, ICs do not lose Skilled Rider (reroll dangerous terrain tests) if they join a unit. It does not have an asterisk, and since dangerous terrain tests are done on a model by model basis, it can be applied to the IC and not the rest of the unit quite easily.

He gained Fearless as soon as he joined that unit; until he leaves the unit he has the Fearless USR, and that lasts until his movement phase when you again check for "is in unit?"

No morale check, takes NR!

F: What unit? All I see is an IC model.

A: That unit. *points at models in the casualty pile*.

F: That unit is over there and removed from the game.

A: That unit. *points at the IC*.

F: That unit is an IC which does not have the Fearless SR in it's profile.

A: No, I mean the unit the IC was in.

F: Was in?

A: Is in, it's there. He can't leave it till the Movement phase.

F: What unit? All I see is an IC standing there by itself.

A: You know what I mean.

F: I think you mean there's a unit there when clearly there is not a unit there.

A: ...

Well done, so do you have a rules argument or just veiled insults?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well done, so do you have a rules argument or just veiled insults?

He's arguing conventional logic as applied to rules.

Which, knowing GW as well as we do, is not the best way to decide how to play a rule.

Thus, his argument is essentially null and void.

I know that. It isnt even an attempt at an argument, as it ignores the rules as printed in the book.

RAW: NR! applies as the IC has the Fearless rule until he leaves the unit, which cannot be until his movement phase.

RAI: who cares, as the rule isnt unclear.

How about this for a rebuttal, Leez?

If my IC loses Fearless before the following movement phase, when he's allowed to leave his unit, then your chainswords can't pierce my power armor. Can't be done.

See, if we're going to apply logic to this game, then your chainsaw weapons, which, upon impact with anything as hard as my power armor, would simply sieze up and jump back at you instead of cutting it. So, every model that you have that has a chainsword can't do any damage in close combat, and will incur exactly zero wounds.

See what I did there?

That's why you don't make rulings based on conventional logic in a game that, by its very nature, defies that same logic at every turn.

Your argument is very similar to the one I just made.

I think the issue is, by raw, the IC can't leave the unit until the IC's movement phase and remains fearless.

HOWEVER. In a game store with a friendly opponent, or a TO who does not always use raw, you will end up looking like a jerk for trying to play by the rules in this case...

Its a sticky situation and I really think there needs to be a group like in magic who sets up ground rules for games like the DCI... but for GW games... I vote for Gwar!

SaintHazard wrote:How about this for a rebuttal, Leez?

If my IC loses Fearless before the following movement phase, when he's allowed to leave his unit, then your chainswords can't pierce my power armor. Can't be done.

See, if we're going to apply logic to this game, then your chainsaw weapons, which, upon impact with anything as hard as my power armor, would simply sieze up and jump back at you instead of cutting it. So, every model that you have that has a chainsword can't do any damage in close combat, and will incur exactly zero wounds.

See what I did there?

That's why you don't make rulings based on conventional logic in a game that, by its very nature, defies that same logic at every turn.

Your argument is very similar to the one I just made.

He's not allowed to leave the unit, I never once argued anything to the effect that he can leave (I did claim that the unit can leave him though, by dying). In my little skit (poor attempt at humor I should have known better then to include at the end now deleted) doesn't claim he's left the unit, it illustrates the point that "the unit" does not exist. I'm not arguing the logic of a fictional universe. Neither will I claim that your insult that I am using "logic of the real world in a fictional one" makes your point invalid. It's invalid because the fluff is irrelevant when examining the rules never mind that there are several examples in the fluff of chainswords cutting through power armour.

Fill in the final reply by real world person A with something more then ... if you will. I'd hazard a guess that real world person F would still say something along the lines of "What unit? I see no unit." Because on the the table, at the game, there is no unit, RaW defines a unit as being composed of ".

The rules say he's Fearless if he is joined to a unit that confers that particular USR, which means there has to be a unit according to RaW, but player F looks at the table and does not see a unit being and thus the question becomes "Which unit is granting the USR?" Player A has no reply because the unit does not exist anymore.

The reply is simple, the person in your example is possibly a moron.

"The unit of zero models to which he is attached until his next Movement phase."