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nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt silly - as you point out yet again you can come up with fluff reasons why they would / wouldnt retain fearless, so given that the rules on ICs gaining USRs are clear, and the timing as to when you check it is clear, then playing RAW here seems the most sensible route.

Also point in case - Chaos Lords are fearless. Utterly, utterly pointless for them to be fearless really, but there you go....

It's several posts up so you may have missed it, but you claim a "binary" on/off for Fearless instead of "sustained by". But I can not find the rule for when it turns off. It's in neither the USR nor IC sections of the BRB that I saw, but maybe I missed it. Could you tell me where this rule you've stated is located more exactly, perhaps a specific page please?

nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt silly - as you point out yet again you can come up with fluff reasons why they would / wouldnt retain fearless, so given that the rules on ICs gaining USRs are clear, and the timing as to when you check it is clear, then playing RAW here seems the most sensible route.

Also point in case - Chaos Lords are fearless. Utterly, utterly pointless for them to be fearless really, but there you go....

I was trying to come up with an example off the top of my head. I'm bad at that.

a chaplain joins a tac squad and grants them fearless. they charge into combat and lose the chaplain in the melee. the tac squad isn't fearless anymore right and if they lost would take a gut check. why would it be any different for IC's ?

So IC cannot must leave a unit that is destroyed, but not disembark from a transport that is

Measure the 2" that the IC is required to move away from the unit

The IC is not leaving a unit--it is not part of them for combat purposes--and also cannot be considered to again become part of a unit that does not exist.

Unless the rules actually state a duration, I see no reason to apply one.

et al

There is no 'timing' statement. Here's all the Fearless USR says:
"This special rule is gained by any independent character joining a fearless unit. "

Compare that to the next line:
"However, as long as a fearless character stays with a unit that is not fearless, he loses this special rule."

So a non-Fearless IC gains the rule and apparently never loses it, even if he leaves the unit. While a Fearless IC only loses Fearless while joined to a non-Fearless unit. Sure, we all "know" that the non_fearless IC loses the rule when he leaves the Fearless unit, but that's not what the rule says.

So anyways, I'm still of the opinion (regardless of how the rule is written, see above) that if there are no models of the Fearless unit in existence, it doesn't matter if the non-Fearless IC still (silly RAW) belongs to the unit or not, he loses the Fearless granted by the now non-existant unit.

kirsanth wrote:So IC cannot must leave a unit that is destroyed, but not disembark from a transport that is

Measure the 2" that the IC is required to move away from the unit

The IC is not leaving a unit--it is not part of them for combat purposes--and also cannot be considered to again become part of a unit that does not exist.

Unless the rules actually state a duration, I see no reason to apply one.

et al

The IC is not leaving a _______. Since there is nothing, nothing on the board and more importantly nothing RaW defines as a unit. IC's can only leave units, there are no rules for leaving _______.

Even still, if the unit was there, as you say there is no duration on Fearless. The rule only turns on, it never turns off (except in one specific case where it can turn off but then also turns back on) unless I am missing something the rules for ICs, USRs, and coherency do not state a termination point for Fearless and that people saying there is one are making things up and not arguing RaW. Not like I've never been wrong about a rule not being there though, hard to prove absences.

Leez - it wasnt a rule, hence saying "is essentially" - not that it actually is.

Essentialy as soon as the IC joins the Fearless unit the USR "Fearless" is added to their profile. Now, ruleswise they never lose it, however they definitely dont lose it until the followign movement phase.

Badandy - doesnt the Chaplain have a rule stating "while alive" or similar? Remembver that the chaplain is the odd case, as it is a fearless character conferring fearless instead of, as would be the usual case, losing it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:My argument does not rely on the unit still being there "as a unit of 0 models"- as I stated ALL that is required is that the IC joined a Fearless unit; AT THST POINT the IC gains the Fearless USR and does not lose it until it has left the Fearless unit - determined by measuring coherency to the unit (so no phantom units persisting, it WILL end next movement phase) as usual.

Essentially fearless is a binary variable in this instance; switched to "ON" by joining the unit, and is only switched off when you are told - by checking the presence of the unit (or not) end of next movement phase.

This is all because you are told this is how the rules work when ICs join units with USRs that confer; the IC *gains* the rule the instant they join, and this persists an entire game turn until the end of the ICs movement when you again check for unit status.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Leez - it wasnt a rule, hence saying "is essentially" - not that it actually is.

Essentialy as soon as the IC joins the Fearless unit the USR "Fearless" is added to their profile. Now, ruleswise they never lose it, however they definitely dont lose it until the followign movement phase.

Your "essentially" is clearly for the binary analogy. You then go on to make a RaW claim regarding when it turns off and where the rule stating it turns off is located. Your position now is that the IC gets the Fearless and never ever loses it for the entire game and that he leaves the non-existing unit during its turn in the Movement phase? Which different from before when you state the IC loses it when he leaves the unit or non-exiting unit. Now, I like to hear Gwar!'s position since he agreed with you when you wrote that Fearless was lost when the IC leaves the unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Leez - it wasnt a rule, hence saying "is essentially" - not that it actually is.

Essentialy as soon as the IC joins the Fearless unit the USR "Fearless" is added to their profile. Now, ruleswise they never lose it, however they definitely dont lose it until the followign movement phase.

Badandy - doesnt the Chaplain have a rule stating "while alive" or similar? Remembver that the chaplain is the odd case, as it is a fearless character conferring fearless instead of, as would be the usual case, losing it.

It simply states he embodies the honour of the chapter. He and all members of any unit he has joined are fearless.
my question is how can you claim an ability from something that doesn't exist anymore. maybe you consider the IC hasn't left the unit. But I gaurantee if the unit is all dead they have left the IC. So he has become a unit of one. its really no different then getting charged by orks. my sm get charged by 20 orks . They are fearless but I kill 10 or more in CC when the combat ends, if they lose the orks take a gut check. no longer fearless. Why? because they can't claim the dead are still there.

mrwhoop wrote:If I may chime in, this smacks of Tyranid Synapse. A HT grants synapse to gaunts in the movement phase, they gain fearless until the next movement phase where they test again.

I don't think that's how it works. Gaunts test to see if they have to follow instinctive behavior for the prupose of their own movement and shooting. While they are in synapse they are fearless, but they can lose that by moving out of synapse or by having their synapse taken away by enemy action.

This issue in this thread is whether or not an IC can only leave a unit in the movement phase voluntarily or whether having his fearless squad shot or hacked out from underneath him qualifies as having left the unit involuntarily.

mrwhoop wrote:If I may chime in, this smacks of Tyranid Synapse. A HT grants synapse to gaunts in the movement phase, they gain fearless until the next movement phase where they test again. If the HT bites it before the gaunts, do they lose fearless? If they keep it until they test again I'd say this may be a precedent for an IC getting fearless and keeping it until the movement phase test.

Except it doesn't work that way. As Arsch points out, the beginning of turn bit applies to IB, not Fearless. Nid units are Fearless if they are in synapse at the time of the test. If the Synapse dies or if they move out of range, they lose it.

And him leaving/not leaving the unit is (to me) irrelevant. Is there any model there that has Fearless and can therefor grant it to the non-Fearless IC? No. Hence, no Fearless.

Our problem is GW didn't give us a closure statement telling us when/if the Fearless ability goes away or is lost by the non-Fearless IC. Whatever.

Leez - but how is any of this relevant?

RAW he appears to never ever lose it, he defeinitely does not lose until until his next movement phase therfore to answer the OPs query he definitely WOULD suffer NR! as he is Fearless at the end of combat.

Whether he never loses it or loses it at the end of movement it doesnt matter for the purpose of this thread.

BadAndy - he has become a unit of one, but has not, officially, left the unit until the end of the next movement phase. Please read the rules on ICs joining and leaving (page 48 possibly, if my memory isnt failing me) and note that there is no allowance for the IC to leave a unit at any poiint other than the movement phase.

Sure it matters. Since we have nothing to say when he loses it, we have to look at other examples that GW has provided us to try to determine when he loses it. And gosh golly gee whiz, seems to me they would say he loses it upon the removal of the last member (other than him, of course) of the unit that granted the ability. Or we just accept it completely as written and say that I can join my IC to the Fearless unit at the beginning of the game, have him leave them on turn 1, but retain Fearless for the entire game. If we're going to use silly RAW, let's go all out!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Leez - but how is any of this relevant?

Both our original reasons for why he had or didn't have Fearless have changed I just wanted to be sure which part of your position was based upon RaW and which was fictional, it's clear now. Gained Fearless is RaW, losing it was fiction. All of us were arguing fiction when we gave reasons from losing it either immediately or at the end of the players next Movement phase.

I don't mind starting wrong as long as I end being right, no matter how many times I change my opinion. IC gains Fearless and retains it for the rest of the game, unless he joins a unit without Fearless, but once he leaves that unit he gets it back is the final one I think.

don_mondo wrote:Sure it matters. Since we have nothing to say when he loses it, we have to look at other examples that GW has provided us to try to determine when he loses it. And gosh golly gee whiz, seems to me they would say he loses it upon the removal of the last member (other than him, of course) of the unit that granted the ability. Or we just accept it completely as written and say that I can join my IC to the Fearless unit at the beginning of the game, have him leave them on turn 1, but retain Fearless for the entire game. If we're going to use silly RAW, let's go all out!

My point exactly as in reference to orks losing it. they lose it as soon as the squad goes below the number that grants it. So by that logic the IC loses it when the squad grantining it dies.

But that is only because they are a) not an IC joining a unit and b) because their rules state exactly what happens and states they lose it. Apples and Oranges.

Don - you may think it is "silly raw' but an equally compelling "Intent" argument can be made either way.

but it seems to me everything other than an IC loses a granted ability the minute whatever was granting it are gone and it seems pretty clear. so why whould an IC that is gaining the ability from somtheing he joined gets to keep it till the next movement phase if they are all killed in the preceding assualt phase. It just makes no sense. It just seems like a super cheap ( i.e. no fun for your opponent) way to keep from getting swept and losing your IC. I would personally never do this to anyone as it I play for fun. Winnings a bonus !! to claim abilities from the dead is ..well....just somehow not logical. Feels like grave robbing...

nosferatu1001 wrote:But that is only because they are a) not an IC joining a unit and b) because their rules state exactly what happens and states they lose it. Apples and Oranges.

Don - you may think it is "silly raw' but an equally compelling "Intent" argument can be made either way.

OK, address the 'intent' argument, citing an example of a special rule gained by joining or being joined or even area of effect to a model/unit and then getting to keep that ability when the granting unit goes away. I can't think of any. Only thing close is those Marine characters replacing Combat Tactics, but those are army wide special rules, so bananas instead of apples or oranges.

Gwar! wrote:Except the rules do not say he leaves the unit when they all die. The only time he can leave the unit is by not being in coherency with them in his movement phase.

I already addressed that. I didn't say he leaves the unit. I said he is no longer joined to it, on account of it no longer existing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - sorry but the rules dont say that. He retains Fearless until his movement phase because that is when you heck for unit membership.

The movement phase is when you check whether your character has joined or left a unit, yes. That doesn't mean that he can't be considered to no longer be a part of the unit at any other time, if some other mechanic causes him to no longer be a part of it. It simply means that the movement phase is when you check if he is within 2" of them.

If the unit does not exist, he can't be joined to it. It doesn't matter when that occurs... because it's not an issue of the character joining or leaving them. The rules for joining or leaving a unit never enter into it. He's not separated from the unit by leaving them. He's separated from the unit because they no longer exist.

I know this will be shot down as bananas to apples and oranges or some other kind of fruit by those on one side of this discussion, but this is worthy of note at least:

On page 48, under Retinues, the rules very specifically state that a character becomes a separate Independent Character as soon as its retinue is destroyed.

I know it's specific to retinues, but it is an instance where an Independent Character is made separate from a unit before the end of the next movement phase.

If anything your example provides another argument for the IC being 'part of the unit' as we have it explicitly stated in one case and not another.

Considering it is specific to retinues, it has no bearing. An IC with a retinue can't even leave the retinue during the movement phase. He can only become an IC again once the retinue is destroyed. That is the specific rule for an IC and a retinue.

Hmmm, *goes and reads* yep you seem to have the right of that. Side note, seems to imply that an 'IC' with retinues do not need the IC rule, if I'm reading it correctly?