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I have had a few games against fellow SM Players and am starting to see SM Bikers in a whole new light. That extra +1 Toughness is quite impressive especially when coupled with Power Armour their high Ballistic/Weapon Skill, I have seen them move swiftly around the battlefield and neutralise tanks with Meltaguns and Attack Bike Multimelta's. I've finally got them and suddenly i realise i have no idea how to use them effectively. Should I keep them in reserve, use them to roll up a Flank and defeat in detail. Should they hold back or should I be bold and use them as a Shock Fast Attack unit?

If you want underrated, I'd say scout bikers. Yes, scout bikers.

They are cheap, but on top of that they can get their 3+ cover save from turbo boost using their scout move. If you get the first turn, they are very effective at killing all those transports that people are taking that haven't moved yet. It's a hard counter to mech spam armies.

Usually when using bikes people go all out and take a captain on bike+troop bikers and an uber killy command squad. But thats a whole different story. If your looking to just fill up a niche in your army with them then I'd suggest giving them 2 special weapons and just rolling up a flank with them. Turn 1 boost=turn 2 special weapon death. Meltas work pretty well, but that will make them a high priority target for enemies, flamers are often ignored on bikes, and yet 2 flamers (+maybe a combi flamer on the sarge) is easily enough to kill a weak infantry squad in cover.

Good Call, I never thought of using the Bikers with Flamers and Combi-Flamer. It would be very good vs those anti-tank / Anti MEQ units that hide in cover at the start of the Game. Could even be good using those scout mine thingy's !

MW
at least for me the purpose of a bike squad is to deliver special weapon attacks. Keep them small. Arm them to the teeth. If they get in close combat they're done.

Don't take big squads. If you have say 10 bikers they cost something like 300 points all together for a couple special weapons. For just a little bit more you can double the number of specials you're carrying by running two smaller squads. Including the attack bikes, which are gold.
AF

Bikers are quite competitive, the reason I think they don't show up much is the $$$ cost to field an army with a heavy presence of them.

In addition, unlike AF, I will suggest that both large squads and Multiple Small Units (MSU) work well for bikers. A biker list is very flexible and the list depends wholey on the player.

I have lots of linkies for a good read on bikers:

1. This is a recent one I've found:
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/06/how-to-space-marine-bikers-part-1.html

2. This is a tactical over in 40K Online I put together:
http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=182311.msg2228713#msg2228713

3. Warseer: Bike Squad vs. Biker Command Squad:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254342&highlight=Bike

4. Warseer: Khan vs. Captain:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243373&highlight=Bike

5. Way of the Water Warrior, IMO mandatory reading:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=201988

6. Bolter and Chainsword Biker Discussion:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=204974

7. B&C Discussion of Biker Support Elements:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=208544

8. DakkaDakka thread: Why Bikes So Rare?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/310593.page#1831497

9. Attack Bikes being useful?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/310177.page#1819527

10. Cheap COmmand Squads.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/306967.page#1769712

11. Bikers Useless or not:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/303124.page#1719246

12. More 40K Online Another Tactics Discussion:
http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=200357.msg2455992#msg2455992

13. About Khan:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/291016.page#1519561

14. THe all important Speeders vs AttackBike:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/287430.page

15. Bikers In general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/279317.page#1335339

16. Command Squad on bikes point sink?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/279351.page#1335800

17.Khan vs. Bike captain again:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275196.page#1273731

That's as much as I can find right now
Good Luck. Always ask questions, bikers are very fluid and can fit more playstyles, though they are not forgiving.

Awesome, this is probably the best reply i have ever seen. I have just spent 4 hours reading this in detail!

Bikes are awesome. You don't even need to field an all biker army to take advantage of their ability to be fast tough scoring units with some shooting and decent assault potential.

Back when I played Crimson Fists, I would take a Captain on bike as my HQ choice, and then field two 7 man biker squads with 2 meltaguns, and sgt with powerfist. I find they are an excellent alternative to the meh-tacticals.

Yea, I think the most important out of them is the Way of the Water Warrior section.

In general the biggest issues for bikers are:

-Khan or Captain
-Large Bikers or Small Bikers
-Speeders or Attack Bikes

As points increase:
-Libby or no Libby
-Elites or Heavy's

In pretty much that order.

Again, it's not a forgiving army, though highly flexible.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Don't take big squads. If you have say 10 bikers they cost something like 300 points all together for a couple special weapons. For just a little bit more you can double the number of specials you're carrying by running two smaller squads. Including the attack bikes, which are gold.
AF

Sanctjud has found good luck with max squad sizes and combat squadding them. He is one smart cookie and has found how to make it work well for him and his playstyle.
I have found the magic number to be 5 bikes + 1 attack bike for my playstyle. I move around my opponent for as long as possible then hit as hard as I can in as small of an area as I can, then I go back to water play of turbo boosting around.

Tale of two squads
This is my usual format. The total comes in at 235 points.
Sergeant with PF
2 MG / PG
2 Bikes
1 MM / HB attack bike.

Compare them to 10 tac marines in a rhino cost wise.
10 Tactical Marines- Missile Launcher, MG, Powerfist, Rhino- 235pts.

Durability
This comes in at roughly the same cost, having the same durability. This gives my squad 7 T5 wounds, which compared to regular bolter fire, makes them just as durable as 10 T4 marines. The rhino gives the tacs some extra protection vs small arms fire and long range AT such as MLs. Most importantly, the rhino gives some protection vs. an unexpected charge.

The bikes can turbo-boost, giving huge protection vs many weapons. Once when playing vs 15 long fang MLs, I turbo boosted 5 squads to him (30 bikes total). After his 15 long fangs fired, he killed 3 bikes, and wiped him on the next turn by shooting and assaulting with 4 PF and 1 captain.
This does not work against some units (3 war walkers with 2 scatter lasers each, for example) so YMMV.

Firepower
The bikes have more firepower in terms of special weapons, and can move and fire the heavy weapon. In addition, bikes are relentless, allowing them to assault the turn they double tap, which is useful when fighting hordes. Bikes can also move 12" and fire their weapons, where the taq squad cannot fire from the rhino after it moved 12".

I use 3 squads with PG and 2 squads with MG in my build. Lets say my opponent is trying to shove a unit of 10 death company down my throat. I will close with the 3 PG squads and fire 12 STR 7 AP2 shots, 12 STR 5 AP4 shots, 8 STR 4 AP 5 shots. If any of his models are left I assault with 3 PFs.

The same tactic also works when fighting horde, and I have used it to wipe 30 man ork slugga squads before. The key is being able to assault afterwords to also deliver the 9 PF attacks, and making sure that you brought enough to seal the deal when you do, the as getting tarpitted in a 50 man IG blob squad would be not the way of the water warrior.

KPs and Loss of Transport
The tacs are more resistant to small arms fire while the rhino is alive. In my experience I have not found this to be a significant problem, save for the the time that a bike squad has been doomed.

They also have one less KP than the tac marines, which can be useful in your trying to deny KPs. When a squad is down to 1 or 2 models, you just turbo boost them away to deny KPs.
Tacs are vulnerable when their rhino is popped.

Why use tacticals
The tactical marines have more bolters, and a longer range on the heavy weapon. They can also take advantage of cover, and can climb up stairs. Honestly I don't think those are worth it, which is why I play all bikers with Preads/Dreads/LandSpeeders, etc..

@labmouse42:

Thank you for the pat on the back .

Your usual format for biker:
It seems odd to see a fist in there. There are discussions (long and winded) about ‘to fist or not to fist’ on units in general, but my question is a fist in a not so ‘hidden’ squad.

I do like my fists, but I’ve seen the suggestion that because of the lowish model count, a fist is not really warranted if it’ can’t ‘hide’.

When I combat squad (which is similar but different I admit), torrent is always an issue I come up against/across. I guess it’s just something that just ‘is’ and we work through it rather than around it.

Otherwise, the 2 meltas and MM are pretty standard. Though I’m crazy and I run with 2 meltas and the hvy bolter

Durability:
As for the Tactical, meching up offers so much utility, where as bikers are more ‘what you see is what you get.’
Recently, I went up against a medusa, scared me so much as turbo boosting is quite important to the durability of bikers.

Firepower:
Mass dakka is good dakka . Bringing said dakka to where it needs to be is the name of the game with bikers.

KP/Loss:
Agreed, though, there is an argument where KP is worth it compared to the other missions.

Tacticals:
They are support options that work similarly to bikers…offer more bodies and an Armored Vehicle.
I don’t use them because if I went with them I’d go for a minimum of 3 Rhinos…2 tacs and ‘something’, but there just isn’t enough points to fit them in.
And yea, I do like the other support options available in the other FoC slots as well

labmouse42 wrote:Sanctjud... is one smart cookie and has found how to make it work well for him and his playstyle.

I think you should look at the arguments, not the person making them.

labmouse42 wrote:
I have found the magic number to be 5 bikes + 1 attack bike for my playstyle. I move around my opponent for as long as possible then hit as hard as I can in as small of an area as I can, then I go back to water play of turbo boosting around.

Agree

labmouse42 wrote:
Tale of two squads
This is my usual format. The total comes in at 235 points.
Sergeant with PF
2 MG / PG
2 Bikes
1 MM / HB attack bike.

Compare them to 10 tac marines in a rhino cost wise.
10 Tactical Marines- Missile Launcher, MG, Powerfist, Rhino- 235pts.

Durability
This comes in at roughly the same cost, having the same durability. This gives my squad 7 T5 wounds, which compared to regular bolter fire, makes them just as durable as 10 T4 marines. The rhino gives the tacs some extra protection vs small arms fire and long range AT such as MLs. Most importantly, the rhino gives some protection vs. an unexpected charge.

The bikes can turbo-boost, giving huge protection vs many weapons. Once when playing vs 15 long fang MLs, I turbo boosted 5 squads to him (30 bikes total). After his 15 long fangs fired, he killed 3 bikes, and wiped him on the next turn by shooting and assaulting with 4 PF and 1 captain.
This does not work against some units (3 war walkers with 2 scatter lasers each, for example) so YMMV.

Firepower
The bikes have more firepower in terms of special weapons, and can move and fire the heavy weapon. In addition, bikes are relentless, allowing them to assault the turn they double tap, which is useful when fighting hordes. Bikes can also move 12" and fire their weapons, where the taq squad cannot fire from the rhino after it moved 12".

I use 3 squads with PG and 2 squads with MG in my build. Lets say my opponent is trying to shove a unit of 10 death company down my throat. I will close with the 3 PG squads and fire 12 STR 7 AP2 shots, 12 STR 5 AP4 shots, 8 STR 4 AP 5 shots. If any of his models are left I assault with 3 PFs.

The same tactic also works when fighting horde, and I have used it to wipe 30 man ork slugga squads before. The key is being able to assault afterwords to also deliver the 9 PF attacks, and making sure that you brought enough to seal the deal when you do, the as getting tarpitted in a 50 man IG blob squad would be not the way of the water warrior.

KPs and Loss of Transport
The tacs are more resistant to small arms fire while the rhino is alive. In my experience I have not found this to be a significant problem, save for the the time that a bike squad has been doomed.

They also have one less KP than the tac marines, which can be useful in your trying to deny KPs. When a squad is down to 1 or 2 models, you just turbo boost them away to deny KPs.
Tacs are vulnerable when their rhino is popped.

Why use tacticals
The tactical marines have more bolters, and a longer range on the heavy weapon. They can also take advantage of cover, and can climb up stairs. Honestly I don't think those are worth it, which is why I play all bikers with Preads/Dreads/LandSpeeders, etc..

The tactical squad is probably more durable since the bikers dont have the rhinos protection. tn 5 is nice but not being able to hurt me at all is even better. however I believe that in the sense of killing bad guys, rather than just of taking fire, the bikes are at the end of the day more durable because they are better equipped to *eliminate* the things that can shoot at them, than the tactical squad is, owing to the higher number of special weapons they carry and their superior mobility which lets them get the weapons to the target. For firepower - I guess my views on bolters are pretty well known at this point so I won't get into it again. I'll just say that its highly suspicious to me that when I showed the math on the other thread everyone else went nutzo and the name calling started. And yes the rhino delivers a kill point that the tacticals dont. Tacticals are more vulnerable outside of it bc they dont have the mobility to readjust and because theyre only toughness 4. they have more wounds its true but that just means it might take them an extra combat phase to get wiped against strong assault units. Thats hardly an asset if your rocking a ton of special weapons - you want those combats over fast so that they cant hide from your flamers and plasmaguns. The tacticals have a longer range weapon yes, the merits of which are...... debateable..... bikes can make just as good and better use of cover as the tacticals.

I agree with you the tacticals dont compare very favorably to the bikes.
AF

What do people think about the grenade launcher on scout bikes? I have recently been toying with the idea of a bike marine force and that launcher looks decent, but of course it is given to scouts.

They are jack of all trades...in somewhat of a slightly negative light.
Scout bikers have less than a handful of gimmicks available to them...and generally it does not involve their grenade launchers.

Though, a bunch of str 6 shots close range when you need it and close to the enemy has itsmerits, a biker army IMO can't really spare the FA slots for them, and more Tactical bikers (read: more special weapons) are the bread and butter.

I think scout bikers are useful as so:

3 bikers
Sgt with combi-melta and melta bombs.
85 points for a unit that can assault on the first turn? With a melta shot. melta bombs, and 2 krak grenades?

Granted smart players will make sure you can't scout that close to them, but it is still noteworthy.

And in a drop pod army, I think putting on a locator beacon on one of them would just be funny.