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Hey, I'm still pretty new to the whole WM/H scene so I was just wondering... are character jacks really necessary in large point games? The person who works at the store I go to is a big WM/H enthusiast and often tries to pressure me into buying the Deathjack. He says that in 50 pts or higher you're really gimping yourself by not taking a character jack. It has impressive stats, but I'm not sure if it's really worth spending the sixty bucks on. Also, the model is freaking huge so I don't know how I'd transport it.

And, when we played a game at 25 pts, he was running a nemo list with Thunderhead (who has that annoying special attack I didn't know about). He killed most of my McAinithralls with that pulse thing, but then I just ran three more into it and boxed it out. (I was running denny, so rest assured it was sufficiently debuffed.) So, it took out the majority of a 3 point unit and then got taken off the board. I just don't know how I feel about putting such a large point investment into a model that can get taken out almost as easily as any other 'jack.

So... what does dakka think? Are they worth the point and money investment? Or do they just a poor investment and they want me to drop more cash? (especially with those new war-engines on the horizon.)

They are worth the point/dollar investment.

Leaving Thunderhead open to a Mcthrall charge, Parasite/Withering fiasco? That's
a blunder. I would not have sent him after the McThralls. Combo strike and debuffs means
they're rolling dice +1 on the charge. Three such charges, and a little beneficial randomness
means a dead Thunderhead.

Though I guess he could have done it to get a chance to pulse deneghra.. Auto-hit overrides
stealth, so I think pulse, boost damage, spend focus to buy ranged attacks that will hit automatically
due to sustained attack at range (I think) would have made that move worth it.

Character 'jacks need support, too. Even if they're awesome without support, just think of
the havoc they can wreak with the proper infantry screens, support models, etc.

Deathjack is awesome. If you know what you're doing, you wouldn't be gimping yourself by not
taking him, but he's just so good/versatile. Free focus, advance deploy, spellcasting, self healing?
However, Nemo and the Thunderhead can counter the DJ. Nemo's feat disrupts it, then even
though it gains free focus it can't use it due to disruption. Or maybe Nemo disrupts it with
his ranged attack or hits DJ with Voltaic Snare.

Thanks for the reply. I was just curious about it since I'm still pretty new to the game and still building my forces up. I guess I might get one. How does Nightmare stack up against it?

It's not as powerful of a model, but is a little bit cheaper in terms of points. It also has a bit more synergy with my caster... but I guess that can be a weakness as well since if I decide to switch it up and use a different caster it loses one of it's biggest advantages.

I have all three characterJacks from cryx and I rarely use them. Deathjack is still in the building fase (for over a year now ) and the nightmare is sometimes used as a seether in my case. I do not think the character jacks are needed.

Hel, l deathjack can get charged by 1 slayer and be wrecked, while you can buy 2 slayers for 1 deathjack. (pointswise). Threaten right and he has no choiche in being scrapped...

They're not necessary, of course, but they're damn useful.

I used to, and sometimes still use, Nightmare. DJ is just awesome, and Canky is pretty cool too. They're only useful if you find them useful, really. But necessary? Naaaw.

They may not be 'necessary', but someone tries to tell me I can't use my Deathjack, someone's getting f***in' cut...

Sure it costs enough to get 12 Slayers, but hey: 2 FREE focus per turn to a maximum of 5 focus? 2 Pow 18 fists?Pow 15 tusks? Wait, it can cast spells too? What's that, it can heal itself? Advance Deployment? Destroys anything in combat? Well damn, sign me up for the Deathjack then!
(as to the cost, if you order from an eBay store you can get him for like $39, a battlebox for $35, etc. I bought my army from Macpac51 on eBay and it's incredible how great of a discount I got... Not to mention in the US shipping for your whole order is only 3 bucks? Makes me wonder why I ever buy retail...)

Generally character jacks are better on casters they don't have an affinity with
other then like, Avatar and deathjack etc who just kill everything, all the time!

They are good, But they are also expensive.
Not necessary no, but they are a highly destructive force.

Every cryx player i see plays with deathjack. Which is great for me because i like to wreck character jacks with Knight exemplar spam

The Avatar of menoth money wise is dirty cheap compared to other characters. ALOT of menoth players pretty much auto-include him because he is awesomly good.

me? i still don't own one because its too many points.
11pts i could buy 12 knights with that! and some wracks

Its up to you. In no way will you be gimped for not taking a character jack as the points you save can easily be spent into something equally useful.
Deathjack or almost 26 mechanithralls? :p

I think that the DJ, Beast 09, and the Avatard are close auto includes for each of the respective armies. Ol' Rowdy is as close as it gets with Cygnar and that's only with certain casters. The ones above are pretty much aces with a small child being the warcaster for them (one is autonomous anyway, one is mostly, and one just wrecks stuff).

My only caster who brings out Deathjack in games under 50 pts is Goreshade the Bastard, as he's my `Jack Caster and runs light on infantry. Otherwise Deathjack shows up in pretty much every 50 pt list I run because he works Really well with pretty much every Warcaster that Cryx has.

Do you Need to have him? No. I just don't know why you wouldn't Want to have him.

But yes, he's large and is a pain to transport normally baring special consideration given to him in your case.

I've used Ol' Rowdy a couple times with Stryker and been quite happy with that combination. He has a higher Mat and high armor than a standard Iron Clad plus he chargs/runs for free. For 3 more points over a standard Ironclad, I think he's a steal.

My brother is going to get the Drago Berserker Warjack for his Khador force later. The background story about Drago makes him sound like he is more powerful than the normal Berserker. And the normal Berserkers are the heaviest Jacks in Khador. So if you want more power in your force, I suggest you get a character jack.

DJ is very useful and a good investment imho. He brings a lot to the table.

Any time my regular Cryx opponent doesn't field him i consider it a gift, because I have seen the mayhem he can cause with it when he does. This is just as much due to his overall skill as a player then with the DJ itself.

The character jacks are sort of glass cannons: they can cause massive casualties and be nasty, but can die easily if an opponent wants them dead and you give him the opportunity.

T-head i field often as a midfield guard against infantry spam rush or as a way late game to clear charge/LOS lanes when i want to go for a caster kill. Most people run him a little too offensively imho and he gets tied up and scrapped too quickly as a result.

They are useful but finesse pieces, that you pay a premium in points for , and if misused they die quickly just like EVERYTHING else in the game.

They are not easy button units, nor auto-includes, and they won't make up for bad tactics or generalship...

Ol' Rowdy is defintely worth his price and is an auto-include in my Striker lists. Thunderhead I've only gotten to work well with pNemo because he has the focus to throw around. Pulse with boosted attack on primary target followed by 2 auto hit attacks that can be damage boosted with Nemo's supercharge. Run with E immune units like assaulting Stormblades with Stormclad and you've got a pretty big mess of lightning. Can't over commit him unless he's got a priority target in sight though because as CT GAMER said, he will be taken down. I never liked Thorn's rules or model so I'm probably not the best person to comment on him.

Warboss Narznok wrote:My brother is going to get the Drago Berserker Warjack for his Khador force later. The background story about Drago makes him sound like he is more powerful than the normal Berserker. And the normal Berserkers are the heaviest Jacks in Khador. So if you want more power in your force, I suggest you get a character jack.

I have never seen the berserker as being the heaviest jack for khador, in fact, he is probably the weakest one we have. lowest ARM, DEF, attack power, MAT... etc etc.

I run the behemoth in a 15pt army constantly, most expensive jack in the game, but he is extremely versatile.

Warboss Narznok wrote:My brother is going to get the Drago Berserker Warjack for his Khador force later. The background story about Drago makes him sound like he is more powerful than the normal Berserker. And the normal Berserkers are the heaviest oldest and crappiest Jacks in Khador. So if you want more power in your force, I suggest you get a character jack.

Fix'd. The Berzerker is not by any standard an amazingly powerful warjack. It hits as hard as a blind Kodiak, dies like a gimpy Ironclad, and has a bad habit of self destructing if you give it any focus. The one thing it really has going for it is that it costs as much as some lights. Drago is something of an exception, due to his better chain attack, higher MAT, and his critical, but outside of Vlad lists where you don't have to worry about him blowing himself up, he's still somewhat "meh."

As for character 'jacks in general, they're generally worth their points. Will I always field one? Certainly not. In my Sorscha theme list, I'll usually take a Spriggan over Beast-09 if I can't take both, as the ability to ignore stealth with my Riflemen is often game-winning. Drago rarely sees use outside of select Vlad lists. The Behemoth is too damned expensive to fit in many lists, when I could take a pair of Juggernauts for almost the same price.

There's a time and a place for all the character 'Jacks. Beast-09 and Torch work wonderfully with both Irusk and Strakov, and the former adores both Sorschas. Behemoth works well with Old Witch and the Irusks. Drago can do well with Butcher and Karchev, outside his typical lists. It's merely a matter of looking at what they can do and deciding if their points aren't better spent on a more properly specialized jack for your list.

So far I've only tried Blessing of Vengeance with pSeverius, but it's proven ridiculously useful. The boost to Sevvy's spell damage really helps Ashes to Ashes clear out infantry with ease and it has the defensive capabilities of a normal Revenger.

I use it almost all the time with Sevvy, but I've tried a normal Revenger as well and it worked OK. I'd say character 'jacks are useful, but hardly necessary.

im making an extremoth as well as an extreme beast 09, for my love of those 2 jacks to no end.

The character jacks are worth having in a list, but they are not auto-include in any list either.

Some synergies are just too powerful to pass up, however, like Karchev and Beast 09.

Since you're a Cryx player, I'd actually take a look at Cankerworm before Deathjack; he's cheaper and less threatening against people that don't know what he's capable of with just a couple focus, but his AP attack will absolutely gut just about anything that he charges.

The Deathjack is definitely worth having around, even at 35pts. He gives you a huge damage output, focus efficiency, and a pseudo-arcnode.

I've personally taken the Avatar in alot of my 35pt games and sometimes in 15pts. He costs one point less than the Deathjack, but can't be bought with Warjack points, so he ends up being more expensive if you're not running 'Jack heavy.

I personally run pSeverius without an Arcnode and thus don't have much use for Blessing of Vengeance. For everyone else who does, he's damn near an auto-include. He brings so much to both pSevvy and the Revenger Chassis for one point.

The thing you have to keep in mind is that in Warmachine, it's extremely easy to kill any one model left out in the open, if that's what you want to do. Don't get baited out early and the above mentioned Character 'Jacks are very much worth their points.

All the character 'jacks are definitely worth their points, due to their special abilities. They're hardly necessary, though, and based on your preferences and local meta it's quite possible, say, that two Slayers will work out a lot better for you than the Deathjack. All comes down to personal preference and play style, really.

The Worm is a fun `Jack, but I only ever use him with his BFF Asphyxious. I just don't like him nearly as much without his extra bonus move that he gets from his Affiliation.

With the affinity the Worm is pretty quick and can be like a suedo-focus because after your turn is done it can move the same distance as its original run but with no focus.

Both Gaspys want to horde their focus, so that's nice about the Worm.
Though committing it takes 2-3 focus, a pretty big investment. And then there are arc nodes to fuel as well (obviously warwitch sirens help out).

As spoiled as Cryx are with Focus stats, it always feels like it's not enough .

Yeah, I tend to use Seethers and Deathjack most often for my Cryx, though Malice is going to start making strong appearances too now. eGaspy+Withershadow+Malice is practically broken vs Warmachine armies.

True, Warmachines literally. If they be running infantry more, it kinda loses some charm, I'm guessing.

Even an infantry heavy list will have one or two `Jacks in there because of the `Jack points on every caster. Move Malice up with eGaspy's Caustic Mist blocking LOS to him so you can't shoot or charge him, and the Withershadow a nice safe ~7-8" behind him so they're outside the vast majority of charge ranges and can't be shot by most opponents due to stealth. You just won't be allowed to bring a `Jack within a foot of Malice hardly at all or it's just giving Cryx an extra free `Jack.

The only Autoinclude jack for me is the Fire of Salvation with Kreoss. He makes the pain onion of Menoth that much more painful...
The Avatar is definitely a badass, but you really need to be careful, tactically speaking, to plan for that 11pts.

That being said, my first Steamroller Gold was a MM list that included pKreoss, Fire of Salvation, and Avatar. That is all.

I wouldnt say there ever intended to be "needed". They are simply flavor text made into models so they can be used to the game. Same with any named hero/character. They could all be just casters, heros, etc...but giving them a name allows the players to become more absorbed into the game. Instead of just having a battle lead by some unnamed person, you are reliving a great battle where XXXX fought the forces of XXX...that kinda thing.

come on now all the characters but behemoth get mentioned come on he is a big cute teddy bear with guns.

Aduro wrote:Even an infantry heavy list will have one or two `Jacks in there because of the `Jack points on every caster. Move Malice up with eGaspy's Caustic Mist blocking LOS to him so you can't shoot or charge him, and the Withershadow a nice safe ~7-8" behind him so they're outside the vast majority of charge ranges and can't be shot by most opponents due to stealth. You just won't be allowed to bring a `Jack within a foot of Malice hardly at all or it's just giving Cryx an extra free `Jack.

Or your opponent could realize the harpoon is a push move and put infantry between it and Malice. It's not like Cryx has enough guns to spare to clear out infantry screens. Also, you really shouldn't assume things like models not being able to shoot through cloud effects...not like I field anything like that...

Oh, sure, there are counters for everything, but the things that can fire thru clouds are few and far between.