Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Right, I played a 3000 point game today against a Sister Of Battle opponent, was Annihilation and Pitched Battle Deployment, I Deployed my two Landraiders in the front with the three rhinos behind them, benefiting from the cover they got from the LR's.
The Vindicators were to the Left around some Scenery but with a clear view of some of the enemy squads. My two squads of speeders were held in deepstrike (Which was a HUUUUGE mistake) and thats everything about my list!

(My List - The Sanctum Ornus Templum = Sacred Ash Templars)
++HQ++
Marshall W/ Lightning Claws + Terminator Armour
Emperors Champion W/Accept Any Challenge

++ELITES++
7 Man "Sword Brethren" Terminator Assault Squad 5 W/Lightning Claws, 2 W/Thunder Hammer & Storm Sheild All W/ Furious Charge (W/ Emperors Champion)
7 Man "Sword Brethren" Terminator Assault Squad 5 W/Lightning Claws, 2 W/Thunder Hammer & Storm Sheild All W/ Furious Charge (W/ Marhsal)


++TROOPS++
10 Man "Crusader Squad" (7I + 3N) W/ Bolt Pistol + Chainblade, One Initiate with Bolt Pistol + Power Fist, One Initiate with a Melta
10 Man "Crusader Squad" (7I + 3N) W/ Bolt Pistol + Chainblade, One Initiate with Bolt Pistol + Power Fist, One Initiate with a Melta
10 Man "Crusader Squad" (7I + 3N) W/ Bolt Pistol + Chainblade, One Initiate with Bolt Pistol + Power Fist, One Initiate with a Melta


++DEDICATED TRANSPORT++
1 x Land Raider Crusader W/ Smoke Launders
1 x Land Raider Crusader W/ Smoke Launcher
1 x Rhino W/ Extra Armour, Searchlights + Smoke Launchers
1 x Rhino W/ Extra Armour, Searchlights + Smoke Launchers
1 x Rhino W/ Extra Armour, Searchlights + Smoke Launchers


++FAST ATTACK++
1 x Land Speeder Squadron (3 Models) W/Multi Melta
1 x Land Speeder Squadron (3 Models) W/Multi Melta

++HEAVY SUPPORT++
1 x Vindicator W/ EX Armour
1 x Vindicator W/ EX Armour
1 x Vindicator W/ EX Armour


(My Opponents List - "The Emperors Purifying Fire")
HQ:
Saint Celestine

Fast Attack:
Seraphim Squad
8 Seraphim Squad
+ Twin Hand Flamers x2
1 Veteran Sister Superior
+ Bolt Pistol x1, Eviscerator

Elites:
Celestian Squad
4 Celestian Squad
+ Meltagun x2
1 Veteran Sister Superior
+ Bolt Pistol x1; Eviscerator
Transport: Immolator
+ Extra Armor, Hunter Killer Missile, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, Twin Linked MultiMelta

Celestian Squad
4 Celestian Squad
+ Meltagun x2
1 Veteran Sister Superior
+ Bolt Pistol x1; Eviscerator
Transport: Immolator
+ Extra Armor, Hunter Killer Missile, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, Twin Linked MultiMelta

Celestian Squad
4 Celestian Squad
+ Meltagun x2
1 Veteran Sister Superior
+ Bolt Pistol x1; Eviscerator
Transport: Immolator
+ Extra Armor, Hunter Killer Missile, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, Twin Linked MultiMelta

Heavy Support:
Exorcist

Exorcist

Exorcist

Troops:
Battle Sisters Squad
9 Battle Sisters Squad
+ Flamer x1, Heavy Flamer x1
1 Veteran Sister Superior
+ Book of St. Lucius. Melta Bombs. Bolt Pistol x1. Combi-Meltagun
Transport: Rhino
+ Extra Armor, Hunter Killer Missile, Smoke Launchers, Storm Bolter

Battle Sisters Squad
9 Battle Sisters Squad
+ Flamer x1, Heavy Flamer x1
1 Veteran Sister Superior
+ Book of St. Lucius. Melta Bombs. Bolt Pistol x1. Combi-Meltagun
Transport: Rhino
+ Extra Armor, Hunter Killer Missile, Smoke Launchers, Storm Bolter

Battle Sisters Squad
9 Battle Sisters Squad
+ Flamer x1, Heavy Flamer x1
1 Veteran Sister Superior
+ Book of St. Lucius. Melta Bombs. Bolt Pistol x1. Combi-Meltagun
Transport: Rhino
+ Extra Armor, Hunter Killer Missile, Smoke Launchers, Storm Bolter

Battle Sisters Squad
9 Battle Sisters Squad
+ Flamer x1, Heavy Flamer x1
1 Veteran Sister Superior
+ Book of St. Lucius. Melta Bombs. Bolt Pistol x1. Combi-Meltagun
Transport: Rhino
+ Extra Armor, Hunter Killer Missile, Smoke Launchers, Storm Bolter

Battle Sisters Squad
9 Battle Sisters Squad
+ Flamer x1, Heavy Flamer x1
1 Veteran Sister Superior
+ Book of St. Lucius. Melta Bombs. Bolt Pistol x1. Combi-Meltagun
Transport: Rhino
+ Extra Armor, Hunter Killer Missile, Smoke Launchers, Storm Bolter

Battle Sisters Squad
9 Battle Sisters Squad
+ Flamer x1, Heavy Flamer x1
1 Veteran Sister Superior
+ Book of St. Lucius. Melta Bombs. Bolt Pistol x1. Combi-Meltagun
Transport: Rhino
+ Extra Armor, Hunter Killer Missile, Smoke Launchers, Storm Bolter



The first thing i found was, Jesus christ is it a bad idea keeping my speeders for deep striking, I Managed to Mishap on both of them, causing all 6 of them to be destroyed before they could even hit the field.
After that since my opponent got first crack at shoot, his three exorcists managed to destroy each of my vindicators in ONE turn of shooting, i was gobsmacked, i had no clue whatsoever that an Exorcists were THAT good!..Although the fact i think my Opponent never managed to roll anything less than a six with regards to penetrating hits and the vehicle damage table =(

After that i managed to get my LR's and Rhinos into the middle of the table, but i'm too far away from anything to contemplate an assault or shoot at anything, i pop smoke which reduces everything to glancing which is immense personally!

Next up my opponent moves everything BACK or to the side..thus taking me out of second turn assault viability, "Screw this.." i though, im going to ram my chainswords down his sisters throats, so i charge forward not being able to pop smoke again i do a little shooting with my LR's disabling two Rhinos and thats it.

On my opponents turn the Immolators move up a little and end up destroying my two LR's and exorcists destroying my rhinos, due to the Blast from the vehicle destroyed result i lost 2 people from each Termi Squad, and none from all of my Crusader Squads. He then Dis-embarked everything from his vehicles, and looking at that much Flamer and Melta i knew i was fragged as soon as my next turn ended!

On my Turn i charged forward, thinking "Death or Glory" haha, My terminators managed to take out two whole celestian squads in one turn or combat, Two of my Crusader squads took out two Battle Sisters squads and the third was unable to get into assault, i took a deep breath and got ready for my punishment.

God i hate Flamers...In one turn i was down to nothing but 5 Terminators...And at that point i decided to just call in the towel *cries*


So essentially in this long winded kind of way, i want to know some good tactics for dealing with sisters? Especially from a CC orriented, low Anti-Mech army such as my own. A lot of my downfall was bad dice rolling, my vindis going turn one and my speeders getting melted in the atmosphere as they tried to land!...Although my Crusader Squads and Termies behaved very nicely when they got into combat!

So please, any advice, any comment on what i did wrong, Anything at all!...This was only my 4th game, so im still learning!

One thing to consider is changing out the Vindicators for Predators- it won't stop Exorcists from smashing face on them first turn, but they are a bit more durable as you can give them more than one weapon.

Something else to consider is making those Initiate squads the minimum 5-man squads and giving them Lascannons or Multi-meltas. Projecting anti-vehicle firepower is something BT have some trouble with, but since they can still min/max their heavy/special weapons in Initiate squads, take advantage of that. Your Terminators can handle the heavy lifting in assaults.

You might consider using your free elite slot for a Dreadnaught with ML/TL LC and tankhunters. Effectively a twin-linked S10 shot and a S9 shot can help with popping vehicles.
--------------

Tactics-wise, target priority is hugely important for any army. In the case of your list, you want to make sure you're taking out things that can damage your Landraiders, as those are the real meat of the list.

So, targeting the Exorcists is concern #1, and the Celestians are concern #2. Rarely will you want to start your speeders in reserve, as you want them to be a threat to your opponent as soon as possible (and mishapping, as you learned, is never fun).

Putting your speeders behind your Raiders can block LOS or at least get them a cover save- after that, zip them forward so they're in threat range, but getting a cover save.

Exorcists can damage Landraiders, but they need 6's- so, use your Raiders to block his LOS to the rest of your army.

Just keep at it- you'll get better with playing, and eventually find a list that works for you.

My Vindi's dieing before they even got a shot off almost made me cry!! haha

And i will NEVER be deepstriking anything again, Even if i'd kept the Speeders off the the side, i would of been able to get them in MM range and hopefully popped some Exo's, thats why i thought i would deep strike em, so i could pop them straight away!!

I actually have great respect for the SoB after this, i didn't think much of the fluff, but they work amazingly well as an army when played well!!

Ah, good ol' Immolator Spam.


Anyhoo that's a pretty damned brutal Sisters list and there's no shame in being beaten by it.

With the exception of the Celestians, there's little in that army that can hurt Land Raiders. I suspect you'd be better served by regualr Land Raiders with Lascannons that can pop Immolators like balloons.

Also, Kart is right, Lascannons elsewhere. Sisters require transport. Thare's no two ways about it. Footslogging Sisters of Battle are a joke. Eliminating their rhinos and immolators is the way to go.

The Exorcists, however, are not so much of a threat as the Immolators/Celestians. Exorcists only glance AV14 on a six and need another six to wreck one - low odds.

The Immolators and Celestians are chock full of melta goodness, fear them.

I'd probably skip the vindicators too. As a sisters player I don't much fear them because by the time they are close enough to hurt me, they are close enough to be hurt by me and I have invulnerable saves coming out of my ears.

If you could swap some or all of the Vindicators for dreads (DCCW and Lascannon/Missile Launcher maybe) that would help hugely)

After that, well, Black Templars are good at CC, Sisters are bad.

Right, I might try some swapping around of Vindi's for Dreads or even some Lascannon Pred's! Just too see what works best against them, agreed to another game on Friday so i will see how it works then!

I do love my army in CC, My terminators did me proud, they really did, killed everything i threw em against in one go! and my Crusader squads minced the Battle sisters

I agree that the Celestians are more of a threat to the Raiders, but they're out of range first (and possible second) turn, so you can fire at the Exorcists in the first phase.

Running at least one of the Land Raiders with the lascannons is a good call-- it does use on of your heavy slots, though.

Marshall
run your speeders in 3 squads of 2 rather than 2 squads of 3. This increases resiliency and flexibility

allocate rending and other low ap attacks to neophytes.

target rhinos not exorcists with your best shooting. Sisters are very dependent on their rhinos to deliver their flamer attacks and keep them out of assaults. If they can't flame you they can't win + if you can start multi charging them you'll be alot better off. You need to do this to avoid trading 16 point marines for 11 point sisters, which is obviously a losing situation. Just suck it up from the exorcists it's the flamers and assaults that will be decisive.

Keep your hqs out of assaults with theirs. Templars like most armies don't have a good way to deal with 2+ invulns other than forcing a bunch of saves. That's a job for initiates not castellans, in an hq vs hq fight you'll find your stuff bouncing off the armor of a cheaper character while you can't stand up to too many of her attacks.

Keep very close watch on faith points and when and how faith tests are being taken. Even sisters players get confused sometimes it's easy to let something slip.

Sisters are super aggravating and I dare say overpowered don't let it go to your head if you lose. It may reflect gws lack of concern with play balance more than any lack of skill on your part.

AF

Hardly overpowered- Exorcist aside, the only other weapon they have with range over 24" is a heavy bolter.

Out-shooting them is always a good option- long range threats first turn or so, then threatening melta that makes it to mid-range. Save the smoke launchers for when they're closing on you- and stay in your transports as long as possible. They can't flame you if you're in your metal box.

So split the speeders into three units of two?..I think i have the points to stick a typhoon missle launcher on one speeder in two of the squads, would that be worth it?

I have i reckon around 129 points left over, i COULD fit a Las-Cannon dread in for that, but couldn't afford a missile launcher.

So i'm at a bit of a loss for what to do!

Oh god... Not this crap again, AF.


Moving on, Kart is mostly right. You can out-shoot sisters at long range, and outfight them in assault, but in 6-12 inch range, give or take, they will beat you.

Moreso, perhaps, than any other army, Sisters of Battle need to control the flow of the game. If you can make them react to you, not the other way around you've as good as won.

A dreadnought with DCCW and Lascannon is a serious headache for Sisters of Battle.

It can pop rhinos/immolators and by the time any squad is close enough to threaten it, it is close enough to charge them.

Then the SoB player can either spend faith points in the hope of tarpitting your dread, or watch as it tears the squad to pieces. Nither is a good option.

Marshall
if you have that many points my advice would be to buy something that has a good shot at dropping the rhinos but can also stand up to the exorcists. Mb a lascannon/autocannon predator. Stopping the rhinos is absolutely key.
AF

That might of been a problem in the game.

The Deepstriking Destruction of my Speeders really threw me, and the desctruction of the Vindi's too...I just played into his hands i think?...Going straight for the throat of her force.

Looking back i see the Celestians and Immolators being a sacrifice as they were further forward than anything else, so i naturally went for them, meaning i got my ass flamed by the semi-circle of sisters!!

Azazel..... if you don't want to participate in the conversation...........don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right. That stuff was up front because he knew his rhinos were vulnerable. In this match I don't think you should deep strike your speeders because by the time they show out of reserves the rhinos may already be in your face. Stopping them is pretty close to a win/lose proposition IMO

I actually really liked your initial list High_Marshall. You had all the tools to beat the sisters in there... you just were a bit light on the ranged anti tank firepower, and got some terrible luck.

In the future, should you keep this list, use your speeders to pop his Exorcists. Done, he can't pop your tanks. Then you make him come to you. Your Vindicators will eat his vehicles with a direct hit, and if any of his squads lie in the open a pie plate or two will end the squad. Reduce his antitank to 12" or so, then make him come to you, where you wreck his vehicles and get stuck into assault where he can't flame you.

Assault is your friend. I've lost against sisters but only because my forces were split and ineffective. If you hit them hard in the correct way, they fall.

Yeah, that seems to be what im finding from what people have been telling me! I have a game again tommorrow and im thinking of splitting my Speeders into three squads of two instead.
Question regarding that actually, since they are "Squadded" up, do both speeders have to attack the same target?

People have said in the past that i'm not making the best use of my Heavy slots with Vindi's but i love them!..I find they draw enough fire to let me get up close and in punching range injury free!

Yes, you squadded Speeders have to fire at the same target.

Right, Hmm...Well, that would mean if i was lucky i could put 2 MM shots on 3 targets in maybe turn one or two if i'm lucky?

Sounds like a better idea to me now i know they have to fire at the same target!

The trick is long range anti-tank (AT), which is what works very will vs. sisters.
This can be done via AC / LC sponson preads, dreads, typhoon missile launchers, etc. The goal is to have a tool that can either destroy AV 11, or to shake the AV 13 so they cannot fire on you that round.

Deep striking speeders are very effective at destroying tanks as well, but they are really a one trick pony. 2 speeders shooting at the rear armor of most vehicles had an extremly high chance of destroying the vehicle. The problem is then those 2 speeders are in the middle of the sisters forces, and will be facerolled on the following turn.
The takeaway is that whatever you are putting those speeders on top of, you need to make sure that it will be worth the loss of your speeders.

Finally, it sounds like you just had some horribad rolling that game, and the SoBs had some fantastic rolling. Sometimes, no matter how good of a general you are, bad dice rolling will cost you a game. Seriously, a single krak missle fired from a SoB has a 2.78% of destroying AV 13, which 3.5 a round being fired from the excorcist.
Sometimes you just need to accept that you had a bad round of rolling.

(Numbers generated from the simhammer at www.simhammer.com)

Also, since you are playing what is primarily a CC army..... Once in HTH, try to stay in HTH.
If you are in charge range, you are also in Flamer range. However, they cannot flame into CC. If you can consolidate into cc with a vehicle or preferably, another unit do so.

Can't consolidate into HtH anymore. : (

Azezel wrote:Oh god... Not this crap again, AF.


Moving on, Kart is mostly right. You can out-shoot sisters at long range, and outfight them in assault, but in 6-12 inch range, give or take, they will beat you.

Moreso, perhaps, than any other army, Sisters of Battle need to control the flow of the game. If you can make them react to you, not the other way around you've as good as won.

A dreadnought with DCCW and Lascannon is a serious headache for Sisters of Battle.

It can pop rhinos/immolators and by the time any squad is close enough to threaten it, it is close enough to charge them.

Then the SoB player can either spend faith points in the hope of tarpitting your dread, or watch as it tears the squad to pieces. Nither is a good option.

What? Sisters armies are full of meltaguns. They eat dreads for breakfast up close.

I think it's the Lascannon part of that he's advocating. I go whole-hog and take the ML, too, because assault is not something my BT lists need help with.

Although, if you get SoB in hth with your dread, not much most of their units can do.

The key to beating them is to.... kill the rhinos. A sisters army with no rhinos isnt worth a whole lot. But youve got to do it at range once the rhino has arrived alive its too late.

helgrenze wrote:Also, since you are playing what is primarily a CC army..... Once in HTH, try to stay in HTH.
If you are in charge range, you are also in Flamer range. However, they cannot flame into CC. If you can consolidate into cc with a vehicle or preferably, another unit do so.

CC is your friend as helgrenze has said(even IF you can't consolidate into CC anymore)


the best way to stay in CC is to assault a unit you know you won't kill in one round, but will in 2. if you leave at least one model alive and they don't break you will be locked and therefore immune to their shooting.

then in their assault phase you will finish them off and be ready to do the same to another unit in your next turn.


be careful though. SoBs can throw some nasty surprises at you with faith powers. sisters with 3+ invulns and rending(can they have both at once?) can really surprise you in CC.

What are the faith powers?...He mentioned something about Faith Points but i was so wrapped up in my own depression from my mass speeder/vindi death i didn't pay much attention too it!!

Faith points can be used for acts of faith that temporarily bolster a unit.

He can get +2 Initiative, double Strength, make a unit Fearless, give them psudo-Rending, or make a unit's armor save Invulnerable for a phase.

The important thing to remember about acts of faith is they all have a specific time they have to be declared. For example, the invulnerable save is done at the BEGINNING of the shooting or assault phase. So, s/he can't wait for you to target a unit and then decide to go for an Invul save.

Small correction. The strength bonus adds a flat +2, and also drops you to I1.

Ahhh, so an act of faith couldn't be declared as im moving models into assault with a unit, he couldn't put an act of faith on THat unit?...But if i were unable to move to assault other units, he would be able too then?

He has to declare acts of faith at the beggining of the relevant phase. So he can't declare an act of faith AFTER you have assualted that unit, just as he can't declare the invo act of faith AFTER you have declared which units you are shooting at.

Marshall
each act of faith has a different roll he has to make and a different phase you use it in. They're all either defensive or very short ranged. You need to concentrate on shooting them down before they get into flamer range. If your running 2 land raiders you might do ok up close depending on how you play and what his anti tank is but generally up close isnt where you want to be against sisters.
AF