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The reason this topic came up is because of a bit of fan-fiction I'm writing. The last question I asked was about hot-shots/hellguns and caused a small argument.

or a lively debate,

...anyways... I was speculating as to how an IG battlegroup would fare against a modern army. The set is an IG force that makes planetfall and, after forming up, advances straight into a Corps of, for examples sake, based on the US military (for some reason their army forces are more widely known, CoD probably).

It comes down to basic squad vs basic squad, Abrams vs Leman Russ, F17 vs Lightning etc. The Imperium is clinging to technology its known for several thousand years, whereas the US military is the pinnacle of a modern army (don't judge me for this statement, but I see them as the best equipped and most well-known armed forces in the world. I should also point out that I'm British.)

No orbiting ships or WMDs. No Marines taking part. Just aircraft, tanks, APCs and artillery support for the infantry.

How would they fare? Who would win / cause the most damage to the opponent? Thanks for all thoughts and replies (if any).

Where is the fight taking place?

Are we talking a City Fight with snipers and flamers and other such things?

Jungle fights with Camo and ambushes?

An All out Tank fight, with Infantry Support?

Wheee, this will probably a long thread.

I'd argue the following: Even if the Imperium is clinging to several thousand years old technology, this technology was the pinnacle of a modern army in, let's say the 10th milennium. That is eight thousand years from now. Technology-wise I would give the Imperium the win by a large margin. (In before people who state how awesome the Abrams is and how dumb Leman Russes are. )

Human factor...depends on who's leading the Imperial assault. I think the US military might be more open to unconventional tactics and quicker in adapting to a new situation. On the other side - the Imperial Guard force that is up against the US Army has probably fought Orks, Tyranids and whatnot before. Those soldiers - at least the famous veteran squads! - will have a completely different class of experience over US soldiers.

In the end, as long as there is no hollywood-esque US Marine who gets plot armour and goes on a rampage through the IG lines, I think the Imperium will overwhelm today's forces quickly.

IG would win. You have to remember, WE may have the best available to us, but THEY have advanced far enough for space travel to be plausible.

Dey dun fergot mur dan we'll eva know.

Also, and I may be wrong here, but look at modern warfare (not the game ). A soldier gets shot, he is essentually out of it, the medics are there to stop the bleeding and keep him alive long enough to get medical attention.

Now, an Apothecary causes a Guardsman who loses a wound (I.E. gets shot) to get back up and fight. Definatly better than keeping a guy simply alive.

Of course, that could just be my interpretation of what the rules stand for, too.

Slarg232 wrote:IG would win. You have to remember, WE may have the best available to us, but THEY have advanced far enough for space travel to be plausible.

Dey dun fergot mur dan we'll eva know.

Also, and I may be wrong here, but look at modern warfare (not the game ). A soldier gets shot, he is essentually out of it, the medics are there to stop the bleeding and keep him alive long enough to get medical attention.

Now, an Apothecary causes a Guardsman who loses a wound (I.E. gets shot) to get back up and fight. Definatly better than keeping a guy simply alive.

Of course, that could just be my interpretation of what the rules stand for, too.

Or the Apothecary Threatens to turn them into Servitors if they don't get off their ass.

IG, without question. Even the lasgun, though wimpy by 40K standards, is above and beyond the modern-day assault rifles even the U.S can produce. Pretty much anything they care to field would be superior, even stuff like the Leman Russ.

Wow, lightning reaction by Dakka!

@Cambak: Open plains, some woods, massive pitched battle

@Slarg232: Sorry to bring up 'the game', but as I know very little about the standard Dakkite user, and given its (pointless) controversial coverage by the media, and being one of the highest selling games of all time, it was something people would probably have known something about and would help generate views.

And my point about their technology was a abbreviation from a White Dwarf magazine, where one of the deigners of the IG 'dex (in the WD, when released) said something along those lines.

@Witzkatz: This section of my story is deliberately an officer who is into meat-grinding his units to win, not a huge amount of tactics, but some. Its set on a planet split into two continents. One is Sulumor, a human civilisation at our level of tech, the other is Sumer (pronounced Soo-more. Say each name backwards to discover my inspiration ) who are feudal.
The IG land and massacre the Sumerians, the core of the plot being based on the Heart of Darkness, a loyalist Guard regiment being shaped and twisted by war, becoming a cruel parody of their origins. It follows their eventual transformation of turning to Chaos. This thread was started to work out how other IG forces face the Sulumorians.

this planet is controled by Us right? i would honestly say we'd win. The lasgun, for example. . . is only INCHES away from our current level of technology.

The US Navy already has 'Tau-like' rail-guns, capable of one-shotting a destroyer from a sizable distance away.

And if this planet is controlled by the people like us, then they'd have a satallite network in place, they'd be intimatly familiar with the land, and being that its on home-turf, re-enforcements wouldn't take long to assist any outlying regions.

to further the point of our own technology, i present two very fun, reads
http://www.cracked.com/article_18473_6-new-weapons-that-you-literally-cannot-hide-from.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_16477_5-famous-sci-fi-weapons-that-theyre-actually-building.html

If IG is willing to dedicate to this campaign, while it would be long and bloody, eventually IG would outlast them (given the shear numbers available). However this would take a loooooong time to accomplish.



White, you are hereby ordered to report to His Most Holy Inquisitorial Department for re-education and possible termination on the beleif that you are a Romulan

Anidem wrote:this planet is controled by Us right? i would honestly say we'd win. The lasgun, for example. . . is only INCHES away from our current level of technology.

... what?

I don't think we're "inches" away from creating a man-portable laser with batteries that can fire hundreds of shots before recharging, and can recharge themselves indefinitely via solar power, and each shot can decapitate/disembody limbs.

Anidem wrote:this planet is controled by Us right? i would honestly say we'd win. The lasgun, for example. . . is only INCHES away from our current level of technology.

The US Navy already has 'Tau-like' rail-guns, capable of one-shotting a destroyer from a sizable distance away.

And if this planet is controlled by the people like us, then they'd have a satallite network in place, they'd be intimatly familiar with the land, and being that its on home-turf, re-enforcements wouldn't take long to assist any outlying regions.

to further the point of our own technology, i present two very fun, reads
http://www.cracked.com/article_18473_6-new-weapons-that-you-literally-cannot-hide-from.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_16477_5-famous-sci-fi-weapons-that-theyre-actually-building.html

If IG is willing to dedicate to this campaign, while it would be long and bloody, eventually IG would outlast them (given the shear numbers available). However this would take a loooooong time to accomplish.

I disagree.
None of our weapons are anything near a lasgun, those railguns are still no match for, say, a Shadowsword's main gun, and I'm sure many of the planets conquered by the Imperium knew their own terrain intimately. Didn't do them much good in the end.
The point is that their tech is far too advanced for us to counter, and so we would lose.

Welp, another one of these threads.
I'm just going to say what I always think about these "Could we win against the imperium?" threads.
We can't.
Ever.

Keep in mind that they are 38,000 years ahead of us. The basic gun, handed out to every man woman and child in the Imperial Gaurd, can blow fist sized holes in just about anything. And we laugh at how weak those weapons are compared to everything else. They have man-portable eqipment which can blow holes in tanks that would otherwise need a tactical nuke to even dent.

Us vs. Any other faction in 40K = we lose. A lot.

IG would win in a pitched battle. Lascannons, check. Valkaries, check. along with baneblades, shadowswords, banehammers and stormswords.

Imagine that, a huge tank with what is basically two giant miniguns strapped onto it. That'd do damage. Oh, and thats not even counting TITANS.

"our technology is only a step away from imperium technology"

Void shields, cybernetic enhancements, power weapons, even chainswords haven't been successfully duplicated or even attempted to be duplicated, even when close combat in AFGANISTAN means such weapons would be prudent. Even our industrial laser beams have just enough power to act like a laspistol, and you'd have to have a huge power source for that.

earth forces have nothing on Imperial guard forces.

Doctadeth wrote:IG would win in a pitched battle. Lascannons, check. Valkaries, check. along with baneblades, shadowswords, banehammers and stormswords.

Imagine that, a huge tank with what is basically two giant miniguns strapped onto it. That'd do damage. Oh, and thats not even counting TITANS.

"our technology is only a step away from imperium technology"

Void shields, cybernetic enhancements, power weapons, even chainswords haven't been successfully duplicated or even attempted to be duplicated, even when close combat in AFGANISTAN means such weapons would be prudent. Even our industrial laser beams have just enough power to act like a laspistol, and you'd have to have a huge power source for that.

earth forces have nothing on Imperial guard forces.

QFT.
Seems everyone is on the same page here.

and of course their definition for LMG is

automatic RPG launcher.....(bolter shell)

their main weapon have hundreds of shot, before they have to "cook" their battery

and of course their tanks , no matter how much MBT you gather when they are staring at a baneblade.....

Great, we have a railgun, now what the feth does that mean to a titan?
All in all, thier tech is far too advanced.


Also, we cant even get enough gear for the war in afgan, how do we arm up more people when we lack the basics?

the US infantry would be reduced to a bunch of burning crying wrecks. the LR (depending on what type) would destroy the Abrams in a few shots, and the Lightning would just outright kill the F17. In other words no, we cant defeat the Imperium with our current technology

Due to the size of IG I would think they would win. Modern forces may have better equipment but they don't have the numbers or the mass materials the IG has.

So modern forces don't have really a chance of winning.

Yak9UT wrote:Due to the size of IG I would think they would win. Modern forces may have better equipment but they don't have the numbers or the mass materials the IG has.

So modern forces don't have really a chance of winning.

They don't even have better equipment, we've been over this. Otherwise, right on.

2 words - Leman Russ.
Made of Pure awesome, it's Super Strong Cannon would rip our tanks apart, and then still be able to kill the infantry behind it. To put it simply, the guns we have would be about strength 2. They are weaker than the almighty flashlight.

We have no chance. They have superior technology, resources, numbers and experience. The best we could hope for is that we'd surrender before they started destroying major cities.

The IG will win. Hands down Warhammer is too over the top for ANYTHING modern to stand up to it. Alone from maybe nukes.

We do have a few advantages over the Imperial Guard. The weiners of war would give them pause, especially if we disguised them as delicious foodstuffs.

---
On a more serious note, we would stand no chance. At all. Ever. Dizzler is correct; we would have to surrender and venerate the God-Emperor, or be eradicated.

GW has done a few Short stories based on this same idea. A planet that pretty much is as advanced as we are VS the Invading Forces of the Imperial Guard. They are short stories for a reason. Lasgun>everything we have, except the Pain ray. The Pain Ray is full of win.

RustyKnight wrote:On a more serious note, we would stand no chance. At all. Ever. Dizzler is correct; we would have to surrender and venerate the God-Emperor, or be eradicated.

I know I'd be the first on my street praising the God-Emperor when the Imperium rolls up. I might get lucky and only get inducted into the PDF instead of the IG and get to die horribly at home instead of on some death world.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Yak9UT wrote:Due to the size of IG I would think they would win. Modern forces may have better equipment but they don't have the numbers or the mass materials the IG has.

So modern forces don't have really a chance of winning.

They don't even have better equipment, we've been over this. Otherwise, right on.

Well modern tanks might fair better then IG due to quality of produce and how they slope thier armour to deflect hits though I don't know if a modern tank can pierce adamantuim armour but I think it could fair quite well against IG tanks.


As for weapons we have far more accurate missle capabilitys due to the fact IG lost thier knowlodge of such things.


And I think our weapons though not as adavnce are more realiable and useable as the battlefeild is likely earth meaning we have more useable ammunition then the enemy.


For aircraft that could be a great disadvantage for us due to the fact IG can depoly thier aircraft from space meaning we don't know where they would come from and our radar scanners would be useless.


So In someways we have better equipment when it comes to quality but we don't have lasers, plasma or melta weapondry whci gives IG and edge in that respect.

Going by the rulebooks though, toughness 3 is regular, normal toughness for a soldier in peak physical (but unmodified) condition. The lasgun is strength 3. That means that on average it takes two lasgun shots to put down a soldier. Now compare that to your assault rifle. Wouldn't two shots reliably take out a soldier? Hell, even one will probably put him out of commission.

But that's just small arms. When we bring the big guns into play we would not stand a snowball's chance in hell. Lascannons? Basilisks? Hell, your average LR variant fires shells with as much explosive power as our largest artillery cannons.