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With the arrival of the BA codex and the SW codex, are Vanilla marines now obsolete?

What can Vanilla do better than either of the other codexes?

Codex marines do TH terminators better than anyone (even without Vulcan). They have the ability to run bikes as troops. They have the ability to field 6 Ironclads. They can put independent characters in drop pods with full squads.

Bikes as troops.

With Combat Tactics, they can fall back when necessary.

Also probably have one of the most powerful spells in the game, Null Zone.

Chapter tactics give army wide benefits and either make them hard to move (stubborn), faster (fleet),more punchy with their shooting (vulkan), or for what it's worth, outflank every unit (it's not useful but can't be ignored).

Bikes as troops.

Cheapest TH/SS termies.

Vanilla marines can do several things better than Space Wolves and Blood Angels. Their firepower is none too shabby with Vulkan in the list, and Nullzone makes the most expensive units like Seer Council and THSS Terminators cry. They can also take an all biker list with the Captain on a bike, which combined with Vulkan in a combined mech/bike list could make for a very potent force. The Blood Angel libby is nice with wings in termy armor or lance and maybe the Sanguine sword, but Null zone is an amazing force multiplier, not just a personal buff for the libby. Beyond that, there's also the Iron Clad dread which is debatebly better rounded than the Furiosos since it can take two Heavy Flamers and two HK missiles.

Also, they can take more firepower dreads in the FOC. Dreads in the elites and heavy support may not be the most efficient list, imo, but it's still an option that can be rather effective against armies like orks, since it invalidates anything which doesn't have a powerklaw. Furiosos are nice, but the ways to get them close involve an expensive Stormraven, an upgrade to Libby and the inflexible wargear options as a result, and the imperfect solution of drop podding in.

Don't know as much about Space Wolves. As far as I can tell, they are an even lower model count force than Codex: SM, with a lot of focus on the close quarters and firepower projection of individual units. But their still MEQ, and they still die to the things that make MEQ cry. That being said, they don't really have the option to retreat that Combat Tactics provides, though with Counter Attack, they have fewer situations that they would need to.

As it turns out, that brings up another point. Combat Tactics insure that no enemy can tie up the Marines in close combat and prevent the marines form getting their shooting in during their turn, since you will be able to force them to pull out and prevent the enemy form hiding in assault. Blood Angels don't care unless they took devs, since those assault squads and priests are definitely there for good reasons, and Space Wolves are good in assault in general, though Long Fangs become marginal if everything in the opponent's force is in assault, excluding the vehicles.

Marines also have more flexibility than these other codecies. They can do the things they do, though not as well. But they can also manage to do them with higher model counts and greater flexibility. There's little reason to take Tactical Squads with Blood Angels, especially since that means you miss out on the meltas, transport discounts, and general assaultiness. Not sure about Space Wolves on this one, so anybody with more experience with them can feel free to add or disagree here. Codex: SM will have tactical squads in any list that isn't a biker or scout list, and they provide a constant base of firepower. They may not close or strike in assault as well as Blood Angel's or Space Wolves, but they are more forgiving with Combat Tactics and the wide list selection means that they can be tinkered with to create very different forces. Not to say that Blood Angels and Space Wolves aren't able to do so, but that they have many useful, but expensive, force multipliers or general increases in combat prowess that make for low model count armies.

This all just the impression I have after my time on these forums and in games. Feel free to correct, reinforce, agree with, disagree with, or just state your opinions on all of this.

There are some very solid options in Codex: Space Marines. People have already pointed out come of the Chapter Tactics options and Biker Troops.

Personally, I like the options Codex: Space Marines gives you for a Scout-based task force. You can get Infiltrating, Scout-moving, Fleet troops if you bring Shrike into your force. You also have the Land Speeder Storm as an exclusive option.

You definitely pay too much for Devastators and Heavy Weapons in general, though, which hurts the Codex: Space Marine's anchor position as a shooting-based army list compared to the Assault-focused Chapters like Space Wolves or Blood Angels.

- Marty Lund

Codex SM has some special characters that allow you to do some fun and focused things with the codex. Its still very strong.

SW is divergent enough and has left out enough units that it really plays differently than codex SM. As such, I really don't see much competition between the two.

BA however changes all that. Unless you have a desire to run a particular SC found in the SM codex (or biker army), I see no reason what so ever to use the SM codex over the BA codex. The BA codex does virtually everything that the SM codex does plus has a few bells and whistles of its own to add in just for giggles.

BA is easily the least divergent of all the divergent chapters presented so far.

Vanilla marinz can do bike armies and are more diverse than the other two. They are also better seige because as far as I know the others cannot take TFC's.

BA can do mech better and obviously jump packs, but can also do down right killyness: Death Company. They also make Vanguard more worth it.

SW are a better counter force and do long range better. But can also have strong cc units as well. But I still don't like them.

No love for Dark Angels...? ;-)

whitedragon wrote:No love for Dark Angels...? ;-)

Someday we will...[December 23rd 2012]

Dark Angels are not on par with BA and SW.
They suffer from an old, jervisified codex with wargear/weapons like storm shields and cyclones played accoding to this odd 'dex.

But we are fearless in all senses

willydstyle wrote:Bikes as troops.

^ He said it, and I second it.

Tanhausen wrote:But we are fearless in all senses

The default SM combat tactics is the best doctrine you can get.
Its definitely better than being fearless as it leaves you with more tactical choices.

Once in an RTT my vanilla SM army faced DE.
My gunline army stayed back while I sent a 6 men Termie squad to intercept the approaching DE, just a bait.
What happened was that a Wych unit mounted in a Raider came along, disembarked, and shot my Termies.
Two blasters gunned down two Termies.
The Termies decided to fall back, thanks to combat tactics, and so the Wyches were standing in front of my army.
Hello Wyches. Goodbye DE (in the tourney). Lol

wuestenfux wrote:Dark Angels are not on par with BA and SW.
They suffer from an old, jervisified codex with wargear/weapons like storm shields and cyclones played accoding to this odd 'dex.

DA do have a handful of advantages focused in their special characters and something about dreads that I don't remember, but they also suffer from bloated points. A similar list in DA and SM will run the SM one 8-10% less.

Plus they lack access to a number of modern units, and terrible terminator gear.

But the DA's chapter master has an awesome rule... 4+ invuls for everyone!

Fearless Terminators as Troops, along with BS4 Sniper Scouts, and unlimited range Psychic Hoods, as well as the ability to take short squads with special weapons has utility.

But enough about what people miss when they look at Dark Angels, what about Codex Marines?

Extra spaces in Land Raiders and Drop Pods
Techmarines are Independent Characters
Thunderfire Cannons
Master of the Forge
Land Speeder Storm
Hellfire Shells for Heavy Bolters
Combat Tactics - Seriously, this rule has so much utility.
Cato Sicarius

All ravenwing COULD be pretty good, but it would probably be a hard army to get used to. Having an army of fearless scoring bikes, attack bikes and speeders chock full of special weapons is nothing to be sniffed at.

Jabbdo wrote:All ravenwing COULD be pretty good, but it would probably be a hard army to get used to. Having an army of fearless scoring bikes, attack bikes and speeders chock full of special weapons is nothing to be sniffed at.

Like he said, and what most people miss, SCORING SPEEDERS!!!!

Anywho, what else can be said for th C:SM, well the nilla is always the most filled with options, yes the BA and SW have really scary CC but the fact that in a single army C:SM is capable of assaulting (TH/SS) shooting (tacticals) and mech (rhino/LR) and combine all these elements into a cohesive force easily to move very fluidly and fight WITH the opponent, rather than a spearhead movement that fights AGAINST the opponent. Remember BA and SW are MEQ and other armies that shove their fighting style down your throat will do it better, like orks or tyranids.

I wouldn't call Vanilla Marines dead but they are extremely inferior to the Space Wolves and Blood Angel Codexes. What are the strenghts of Codex Marines?

Shooting? Both SW and BA do it better with Long Fang, Fast Vehicles, and cheaper Dev squads.
Dreadnoughts? BA can field 6 Dreads and they have freaking flying Librarian dreads and have you seen a blood claw in action?
Mobility? Both SW and BA do MSU better since we can't take a special weapon in 5 man squads.
Assaulting? Seriously completely outclassed

So we got Vulcan, Storms, and Ironclads? Dead? no but definitely the underdogs as for a MEQ stands

General_Chaos wrote:Mobility? Both SW and BA do MSU better since we can't take a special weapon in 5 man squads.

Yes Blood Angels can pull off MSU, but Space Wolves are handicapped.
C: SM and BA can pull off up to 12 Scoring units, the Maximum Space Wolves can do is 6.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I forgot, with taking the right 2 Characters/HQs you Vanilas can bump that up to 24
The Max Space Wolves get are SIX no mater how you do it.

Anpu42 wrote:C: SM and BA can pull off up to 12 Scoring units, the Maximum Space Wolves can do is 6.

Ain't seen a Logan Wing have you?

General_Chaos wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:C: SM and BA can pull off up to 12 Scoring units, the Maximum Space Wolves can do is 6.

Ain't seen a Logan Wing have you?

Wolf Guard Become Troops, not can become Troops.

And do I run Logan Wings.

Two words for you. Thunderfire Cannon.

Anpu42 wrote:Wolf Guard Become Troops, not can become Troops.

And do I run Logan Wings.

Ahh okie my bad mis-understood the codex. But seriously that's what put us over the top? We can have 12,16,24 whatever scoring units? Is that how you run your lists? Is that how any Codex Marine players runs their lists?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthDiggler wrote:Two words for you. Thunderfire Cannon.

Oh Joy an AR 10 artillery piece, that has to have LOS, and manned by a SINGLE model...

General_Chaos wrote:Ahh okie my bad mis-understood the codex. But seriously that's what put us over the top? We can have 12,16,24 whatever scoring units? Is that how you run your lists? Is that how any Codex Marine players runs their lists?

Well let look at this at a different way

My 2000 point Space Wolf Army can easily field 40 Grey Hunters, What are my options:
-Walk
-Put them all into Rhinos
-Loose one Grey Hunter [and his Special Weapon] to give myself a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, what others call a Veteran Sergeant.
-Grab a Razorback, and Walk
-Loose 4-5 Grey Hunters and go for a Ride.
-Buy 5 and get a Special Weapon, and for 10 get two.

When I get to the Table
-Plop down my 4 Scoring Units.
-Place my Special Weapons in 4 locations

What most other Space Marines can do with their 40 Tactical Marines.
-Walk
-Put them all in Rhinos
-Grab a Razorback and half of them Walk.
-Buy 5 and get the Sergeant a Combi-Weapon, and for 10 I get a Special Weapon and a Heavy Weapon.

When I get to the Table
-Plop down my 4-8 Scoring Units.
-Place up to 4 Heavy Weapons anywhere I want and then my Special Weapon + Combi-Weapon anywhere I want.

Yes Space Wolves get Great Fire Power, but lower Tactical Ability.

What I draw from all of this:
-If I am going to play a Local Tournament where I know everyone I will probably bring my Space Wolves.
-If I go to a Larger Tournament I might consider using Codex Marines so I can adapt.

I think the Codex: Space Marines are still very viable.

Anpu42 wrote:.

I think the Codex: Space Marines are still very viable.

Viable? I can agree with that. I love my Ultramarines (yes I play Ultramarines and I don't live with my mom still) they are viable, I've proven it many times over, but I think you need to be a good general to make them viable. IMO it's like this, you take a Novice player with a couple months or so under his/her belt, a good understand of the rules, and basic tactics sense. You take them and give them a good Codex Marine list I would guess he'd do ok. But if you gave him a equally good Blood Angels or a good Space Wolves list I would bet money his win/loss ratio would be higher. There's enuff differences to make the newer codexes better (i.e. counter attack, "true grit", Sang Priests, long fangs, fast vehicles, etc)

Fracking Vulcan is all I can say.

Ok, let's pretend im newer to 40k, know the rules but very inexperienced on the tabletop.

If I wanted a strong, diverse, and adaptable army I should go with Ultras
and if I wanted a WAAC, blood talon toting, FNP, jumpy, speedy pred army I would go with BA. Correct?


I lean towards Blood Angels, but it's far easier for me to collect Ultras (god bless ebay) and field lots of different stuff.
Granted I could play like an Ultra army with BA couldn't I, it would just be an insult to the codex.

Anpu42 wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:Mobility? Both SW and BA do MSU better since we can't take a special weapon in 5 man squads.

Yes Blood Angels can pull off MSU, but Space Wolves are handicapped.
C: SM and BA can pull off up to 12 Scoring units, the Maximum Space Wolves can do is 6.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I forgot, with taking the right 2 Characters/HQs you Vanilas can bump that up to 24
The Max Space Wolves get are SIX no mater how you do it.

How are you getting 24? All I can think of is 12 from combat squadded tacticals and 6 from combat squadded sternguard with pedro. But that would be SUCH a competitive army wouldnt it?

You dont need 24 scoriring units. You dont even need 12. 6 is always enough, and up to 2000pts 4 usually does the trick.