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Hey guys, I started playing with some people who run these lists

Mephiston
Sanguinary Preist w/JP
7 Assault marines
5 Assault marines w/PF
Baal Pred
2xAC/LC Preds

Tyranid prime w/BS/LW
Carnifex w/4x Devourers?
Tyrgon
2x Hive gaurd
Tervigon
8? Gaunts
8? gaunts


So far I've been crushed, absolutley crushed.

In the game vs the BA players Mephiston ran tru everything he touched only taking 3 wounds (1 from perils) And his tank firepower was overwhelming. He used the 7 assualt marines and sang to shield meph giving him 4+ cover
VS the nids I could only take out the tervigon before the prime and tyron munched me good. I made alot of mistakes granted, but I hope you guys can give me some good ideas on how to combats these lists.

I ran

Chaplain w/JP/MB
Dread w/AC/HF
Dread w/MM
Tactical squad w/MG/ML/Razorback
Tactical squad w/PG/ML/Rhino
5 Man assault squad w/PF/FL
Dakka Pred

So how should I use my units? whats my target priority vs both lists and are there any minor changes I can make to give me a better chance?
I should also mention both games were dawn of war where I had first turn.
Thanks in advance dakka!

Pitch the Chaplain, you aren't going to be beating either list in HtH. Try a librarian for shutting down meph a little.

Assault squads are, well, there's no way around saying it....TERRIBLE. Assault squad + chaplain is barely worth it, and a 5 man squad isn't really big enough to make an impact. It kills me to says this, as I love my assault squad and tried for MONTHS to get it to work, and the only way I managed to shift it from crap to decent was chaplain + Pedro's +1 attack aura, and even then they can't even stand up to real assault troops.

Dakka pred = AC/HB? No idea why anyone would ever use that combo. Anti-infantry is not an area where space marines suffer. I'm a fan of Vindicators personally. Granted it's probably not the BEST 2 armies to face with it, but it negates feel no pain and will instant-death his prime if you catch it under the template.

I'd suggest the lascannon/TL-plasma-gun combo on the razorback if you aren't already using that.

So you might field something like this if you were me?

Librarian
Dreadnought
Dreadnought
2xTacticals + 2x Plas/Las razorback
Vindicator?

You need to adjust your tactics and list when you play against the two different armies. Against BA, as well as other MEQ's, you want weapons that can hit at a good AP. Vindicators, for this reason, are great. Plasma weapons are good too, if you're not afraid of them getting hot. Your Tact Squads are outfitted fine, as you have a decent mix between anti-infantry and anti-tank. The Assault Squad, like Carnage said, should be a full 10 man squad to be most effective. If you can't max out the squad at least, I would recommend taking it out. Give the Dreadnoughts either the MM or the Plasma Cannon. Beauty of Plasma weapons on vehicles is that they don't get hot. The Dakka Predator, while great for shot quantity won't be as effective against MEQ's. Take that out for the Vindicator, as well as the Assault Squad. Give your Tact Sgt's Power Weapons/Fists instead. I would recommend Combat Squading as well, giving you the chance to use all of your weapon options on the field. And if you have the points for it, upgrade the Razorback's weapon to an Assault Cannon. Against MEQ's, you want high damaging and high AP quality in shots.

Against Horde-like armies, like Tyranids, template weapons are your best friends. Blast weapons can be effective too, but I wouldn't recommend taking too many b/c of the scatter effects. Flamers work wonders on Tyranids, and your Dakka Predator will earn it's keep against them as well. Your Sgt's should take either Combi-Flamers or regular Power Weapons. Outfit your Dreadnoughts with either the Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon, and give them a Heavy Flamer. Give your Tact Squads Lascannons, and then Combat Squad them, but keep them relatively close to each other. The trick behind playing against horde-like armies is letting them come to you. Have your Heavy Weapons focus on the big monstrous creatures, and the Dakka Pred whittle away at the Gaunts. When the Gaunts and smaller guys get close enough for the Flamers, focus your templates on one squad at a time, and make sure one dies before moving onto the next one.

Good luck!

Rurouni Benshin wrote:
Against Horde-like armies, like Tyranids, template weapons are your best friends. Blast weapons can be effective too, but I wouldn't recommend taking too many b/c of the scatter effects. Flamers work wonders on Tyranids, and your Dakka Predator will earn it's keep against them as well. Your Sgt's should take either Combi-Flamers or regular Power Weapons. Outfit your Dreadnoughts with either the Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon, and give them a Heavy Flamer. Give your Tact Squads Lascannons, and then Combat Squad them, but keep them relatively close to each other. The trick behind playing against horde-like armies is letting them come to you. Have your Heavy Weapons focus on the big monstrous creatures, and the Dakka Pred whittle away at the Gaunts. When the Gaunts and smaller guys get close enough for the Flamers, focus your templates on one squad at a time, and make sure one dies before moving onto the next one.

Good luck!

Good general advice, that is completely not applicable in this situation. His list had 10 (since min squad size is 10, likely he paid for 10 and spawned the rest) termigants, and everything else was T6.

Tyranid prime w/BS/LW T5, W3, 3+ save
Carnifex w/4x Devourers? T6 W4 3+ save
Tyrgon T6 W6, 3+ save
2x Hive gaurd T6, W2 each, 4+ save
Tervigon T6 W6, 3+ save
10 Gaunts T3 W1 6+ save

It's a monster mash list cut down for 1000 points. Scary as all hell at this level IMO. Same list is going to serve you well against MeQ and this tyranid list, and missiles are going to be even better.

Tervigon is his main scoring unit, kill that and the gants are going to take a heap of feedback damage and melt. Should be fairly simple to capture the objectives now.
Hive Guard are going to be a pain in the nuts. No advice on how to kill them other then keep the vindicator/predtor/dread's front armor facing them when possible and try to turn the assault cannons on them if you get a chance.
Carnifex isn't too scary, try to nibble 2-3 wounds off of it then work on other targets, if it decides to charge your tacticals the powerfists should mash it nicely, or the dreads could finish it at I4. Just make sure it dies before it gets to swing. It's slow, only has ~4 attacks, WS3, and it's shooting is only 18" range with S6, so small threat to vehicles and MeQ troops.
Trygon, this is going to be his "hammer" he will likely depend on this doing a large portion of his damage. Kill ASAP with all available plasma, melta and missile weapons possible.
Prime, not really any scarier then a space marine chapter master in HtH. Vindicator ruins it's day. A missile, volley of bolters and plasma-gun double tap at close range should smoke him in 1 volley. I'd expect him to be hanging out with other stuff though, so getting to it is the problem.

Who the crap takes 3 monstrous creatures in 1000 points? I took a winged tyrant in my 1000 point touny list and felt bad.

Carnage43 wrote:Who the crap takes 3 monstrous creatures in 1000 points? I took a winged tyrant in my 1000 point touny list and felt bad.

A guy who doesn't care about his comp score.

I hear what you're saying though. I noticed the monstrous creatures in the list, but didn't see exactly how many there were. Maybe a Devastator Squad would be a better fit for this list than the Dakka Pred and Assault Marines. 4 Missile Launchers would surely up his day...

Sadly no, only space wolves and blood angels do devastators right. You'd be paying 160+ points for four missiles. You can get a triple lascannon predator for that cost, and at least that is AV 13 instead of T4.

part of what your paying for witht he devestators is durability. also the preds firing lanes are blocked by its own hull more often then one might think....

Dura....what?

You honestly think 5 space marines are harder to kill then a predator? 1 good volley of small arms = done. Assault = done. They can be pinned and broken, slower...etc. The only reason to take devastators is for a better heavy weapon to points ratio then predators, and vanilla space marines don't even do that well.

Space Wolves get 5 missile launchers for 140, and the ability to split fire.
BA get 4 missile launchers for 130
Vanilla get 4 missiles for 150

I can't speak for the BA codex, but I know that the SW Dev Squad is hampered in it's own way. The fact that they can only take 6 marines total is a weakness in of itself. SM Dev Squads can at least have a cushion with the 5 extra marines they get.

And depending on who you're playing against, I would agree that a Dev Squad can be harder to kill than a Predator. I think in most case scenarios, the Dev Squad would last longer than a Pred, but you get what you pay for.

In a small game, I would probably take the Pred over the Dev Squad. I know that may contradict my suggestion to the OP, but it was just a suggestion for him to consider. Plus, it's only my personal opinion.

But to add to why Dev Squads may be better is their lack of limitations in firing all of their weapons. TLOS is also easier to draw with a Dev Squad that's bunkered down, while a Pred may not have that luxury. Only draw back to the Dev Squad is the movement, but obviously finding a good hiding place for them to shoot from is needed from the get-go. A Pred can still move an shoot, but even then the most you're getting out of it is either a Lascannon shot, 2 Autocannon shots, or 3 HB shots.

At any rate, it comes down to how many points Holy Heretic is allotted, and in this case, he only has 1000 to play with. Playtest some of your options, and see what you feel works best you.

How about this?

Cassius
Dreadnought w/AC/HF
Dreadnought w/MM
Tactical squad w/MG/ML/PF/Razorback w/Las/plas
Tactical squad w/PG/ML/Razorback w/Las/plas
Landspeeder typhoon
Vindicator

10 Sternguard vets, 24 range, 2+ poisoned attacks, yummy!

Meph will take 2 wounds a round if he is at 24"-12"

and 4 if he is within 12" and you rapid fire.

and they cost 250 points, once meph is outta the way (a 250 point model himself) you are free to use then to kill other things.

I can see sterngaurd being a good idea here, poison shots for the monstrous creatures and combi plasma for meq.

and combi plasma for meq

Sterngaurd have ap3 shots anywho?

Combi-plasma for melting a MC or meph if he happens to get too close.

Taking sternguard isn't a bad idea, but you'll want a rhino for em.

kaidsin wrote:

and combi plasma for meq

Sterngaurd have ap3 shots anywho?

They are only S4. Besides, against a 3+ save, the mathematical difference between the AP3 Vengeance shots and the 2+ Poisoned Hellfire shots is minimal. The only difference is that the Hellfire rounds blow up in your face.

10 Sternguard Marines in Drop Pod or a Rhino are a must in many SM armies IMO. They make a mess of TMC and big daemons.

eNvY wrote:

kaidsin wrote:

and combi plasma for meq

Sterngaurd have ap3 shots anywho?

They are only S4. Besides, against a 3+ save, the mathematical difference between the AP3 Vengeance shots and the 2+ Poisoned Hellfire shots is minimal. The only difference is that the Hellfire rounds blow up in your face.

10 Sternguard Marines in Drop Pod or a Rhino are a must in many SM armies IMO. They make a mess of TMC and big daemons.

Actually, it's the Vengeance Rounds that "Get Hot", not the Hellfire rounds. Those are the ones that wound on 2+....

Anyways, Sternguard would be a good addition, provided the OP has them to field. Try proxying them, and see how they work for you. I'm also onboard with the Rhino for them as well.

I third the motion for sternguard. They are infantry and MC killing machines. While they can get combi-meltas and meltas, I recommend leaving them as a dedicated anti-infantry unit and leave the tank busting to others.

Well as it happens I was modelling some DA vets so maybe I'll give sterngaurd a try. The only thing is, a 10 man sterngaurd squad with a rhino is like a 1/3rd of my points cost!!

I guess I could field 5-8 foot sloggers but I see this reducing their effectivness. Also if I'm in rapid fire range of Mephi/MC's I basically need to kill them in that shooting turn, which seems daunting....

So just field 5-6 of them. 5 plus rhino is 170 points.

Or field 10 of them and break them into combat squads, but keep them mostly together, that way if meph does come close, he will only kill 5 if he isn't dead, and you can use the other 5 to kill him after the first combat squad dies. and with 2 attacks each the first squad might even do a wound to him. (though i would not count on this).

DeathReaper wrote:Or field 10 of them and break them into combat squads, but keep them mostly together, that way if meph does come close, he will only kill 5 if he isn't dead, and you can use the other 5 to kill him after the first combat squad dies. and with 2 attacks each the first squad might even do a wound to him. (though i would not count on this).

The problem with 10 Sterngaurd is that it is 1/4th of my points into 2 5 man units, more with upgrades.. I can definatly see them putting some hurt on MC'S/Meph tho, they're like do or die MC killers. If they dont finish the job they're getting eaten! They're fragile but maybe Force dome on my libby can help out some.

Where you thinking of something like this?

Librarian *FD/NZ
10 Sterngaurd w/3xCP
10 Tacticals w/MG/LC Rhino
10 Tacticals w/MG/LC Rhino
Landspeeder typhoon
Vindicator

A posible plan would be to screen the combat squadded SG with rhinos/vindi and advance. Typhoon/Tacticals for armour, sterngaurd for anti MEQ/MC, Libby rides in a rhino and casts Force dome or Nullzone... and if the vindicator lives long enough it can take on pretty much anything.
It seems hella fargile tho. Thanks for all this help dakka , I'm really trying not to pre-build a list devised on crushing two opponents but it seems likes its going that way, I still kinda dig my list, but its hit or miss tbh.

Honestly...I look at both lists....and if you field some lascannons you are going to ruin them...lascannons are money and hurt MCs and any armor...then normal tac marines balance out the rest...

Well as it happens I was modelling some DA vets so maybe I'll give sterngaurd a try

I play crimson fists and i used the DA vets pack to get those nice robes. Red robes blue armor silver eagle and they turned out really well.

Honestly...I look at both lists....and if you field some lascannons you are going to ruin them...lascannons are money and hurt MCs and any armor...then normal tac marines balance out the rest...

Sterngaurd can take lascannons; and they can take them for cheaper then it would cost to take them as a dev squad. (Though you only have options to buy 2)

2+ to wound is going to help against MC bigtime, and at least you have a chance to take down the big guys with power fists in CC (some poor Xenos don't have that option ;] ).

On another note, I'm not sure if dreads are your best option v the nids. The hive guard will have them for breakfast. Whereas AP4 your marines can probably handle. So it looks to me like a good excuse to paint more space marines.