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Ok so before Ard Boyz this last weekend I was warned that one of the participants was most likely going to have an illegal list (we'll call him Skinny). Said player was running too many points in Characters and not enough in Core (or was at least tending to in pick-up games).

Tourney starts, lists were turned in and I thought all was good. Round 2 comes around and I am given my opponent. Turns out I am facing said opponent (Skinny). Round 1 he obliterated a friend of mine, but a discussion took place between the two players and the TO because the person of interest was playing too fast and not explaining all rolls, movements, etc... My friend is very laid-back and didn't want to make a scene, but the TO gave Skinny a verbal warning that such play won't be tolerated and one more complaint will see him DQ'ed.

So back to our game. I look over his list (handwritten in legible fashion) and I notice that he is about 50pts shy of Core Minimum. I immediately take the list to the TO and tell him the situation. TO has another discussion with him, but doesn't DQ him. He corrects his list and we go onto play our game (which I proceed to hand him his butt). I believe after the tournament he had to take a loss from the first round.

I just wanted to run the situation by your guys and see if I made the right choice and to ask what your thoughts are on situations like this.

'ardboyz has very few restrictions. A legal list though, is one of them.

Nothing at all wrong with what you did, especially if it was a "problem" player.

It drives me nuts that people have to have fun by ruining others fun.

He was trying to gain an advantage, he broke the rules.
He cheated so you did the right thing in bringing it up.

It seems easy to say 'oh, it's only 50 points' but in Fantasy, that's quite a bit. Difference between a tooled up Hero running around, an extra level of Magic, even paying for the additional artillery piece.

You did right skip.

Our TO must have told us 5 times before we started to double-check our lists and make SURE they were correct and legal before we started, or he would be forced to DQ us if they were not.

Apparently something came up during the 40k 'Ardboyz like what you experienced.

You definitely did the right thing... no question about it, really. If anything, it looks like he did it intentionally (he had a reputation for it, and it's an easy thing to check). So I would have checked his list carefully, too, if I knew that going in.

Taking it to the TO was the right way to resolve it, as well.

I see no issues with what you did.
For reference, its technically only important what happened in R1 to the TO, to you as an oppontent you keep it in the back of your head, but move on. You read his list, spotted and error, the TO presented the player with an opportunity to fix it, he did, and he forfeitted the first game to your friend anyway.

In the end dice gods prevailed and punished him anyway as you won the match. An illegal list is an illegal list. Whether made on intent or accident. The TO did the right thing, offered a chance to adjust on the spot.

I was on the rec'ing end of an illegal list. A few years ago in a RT I only realized in RD3 I was over points, it was a mistake on a piece of wargear when I was building my list. It was a 40K event and technically I was playing a 2010 pt list at 2K point value. No one had caught it. I walked up to the TO, explained what I realized, and asked my win's to be stripped. I'd likely have won the event, but honestly did not want it like that. The TO was happy I owned my mistake, I earned best sports ironically as all 3 opponents rated me as their favorite game. My Rd1 Opponent took best overall.

It should be just a game, its that's simple. Play hard, compete, and play right. Win or lose, the guy on the other side of the table should feel respected, have a honest and fun game, and walk away feeling like he wouldn't mind playing against you again.

njpc wrote:I see no issues with what you did.
For reference, its technically only important what happened in R1 to the TO, to you as an oppontent you keep it in the back of your head, but move on. You read his list, spotted and error, the TO presented the player with an opportunity to fix it, he did, and he forfeitted the first game to your friend anyway.

In the end dice gods prevailed and punished him anyway as you won the match. An illegal list is an illegal list. Whether made on intent or accident. The TO did the right thing, offered a chance to adjust on the spot.

I was on the rec'ing end of an illegal list. A few years ago in a RT I only realized in RD3 I was over points, it was a mistake on a piece of wargear when I was building my list. It was a 40K event and technically I was playing a 2010 pt list at 2K point value. No one had caught it. I walked up to the TO, explained what I realized, and asked my win's to be stripped. I'd likely have won the event, but honestly did not want it like that. The TO was happy I owned my mistake, I earned best sports ironically as all 3 opponents rated me as their favorite game. My Rd1 Opponent took best overall.

It should be just a game, its that's simple. Play hard, compete, and play right. Win or lose, the guy on the other side of the table should feel respected, have a honest and fun game, and walk away feeling like he wouldn't mind playing against you again.

And your R1 opponent won, because after you tooled him (I'm guessing was the case because you said you'd likely have won)...he got 2 easy matches...then his battle points boosted later.

While I think you did the right thing...as a TO, I'm not sure how I would have handled it. Retroactively giving people points in a swiss matchup tournaments really buggers things up. How does the guy who thinks he is on table 1 round 4 feel...when the guy playing on middle tables all day wins overall because of the situation. Unfortunately this is a situation that goes beyond just 1 player if its not caught immediately.

How would other TO's handle it?

Later,
WR

WhiteRaven wrote:

njpc wrote:I see no issues with what you did.
For reference, its technically only important what happened in R1 to the TO, to you as an oppontent you keep it in the back of your head, but move on. You read his list, spotted and error, the TO presented the player with an opportunity to fix it, he did, and he forfeitted the first game to your friend anyway.

In the end dice gods prevailed and punished him anyway as you won the match. An illegal list is an illegal list. Whether made on intent or accident. The TO did the right thing, offered a chance to adjust on the spot.

I was on the rec'ing end of an illegal list. A few years ago in a RT I only realized in RD3 I was over points, it was a mistake on a piece of wargear when I was building my list. It was a 40K event and technically I was playing a 2010 pt list at 2K point value. No one had caught it. I walked up to the TO, explained what I realized, and asked my win's to be stripped. I'd likely have won the event, but honestly did not want it like that. The TO was happy I owned my mistake, I earned best sports ironically as all 3 opponents rated me as their favorite game. My Rd1 Opponent took best overall.

It should be just a game, its that's simple. Play hard, compete, and play right. Win or lose, the guy on the other side of the table should feel respected, have a honest and fun game, and walk away feeling like he wouldn't mind playing against you again.

And your R1 opponent won, because after you tooled him (I'm guessing was the case because you said you'd likely have won)...he got 2 easy matches...then his battle points boosted later.

While I think you did the right thing...as a TO, I'm not sure how I would have handled it. Retroactively giving people points in a swiss matchup tournaments really buggers things up. How does the guy who thinks he is on table 1 round 4 feel...when the guy playing on middle tables all day wins overall because of the situation. Unfortunately this is a situation that goes beyond just 1 player if its not caught immediately.

How would other TO's handle it?

Later,
WR

keep the scores but prevent him from placing, so if he came first the runner up would have been the winner

WhiteRaven wrote:

njpc wrote:I see no issues with what you did.
For reference, its technically only important what happened in R1 to the TO, to you as an oppontent you keep it in the back of your head, but move on. You read his list, spotted and error, the TO presented the player with an opportunity to fix it, he did, and he forfeitted the first game to your friend anyway.

In the end dice gods prevailed and punished him anyway as you won the match. An illegal list is an illegal list. Whether made on intent or accident. The TO did the right thing, offered a chance to adjust on the spot.

I was on the rec'ing end of an illegal list. A few years ago in a RT I only realized in RD3 I was over points, it was a mistake on a piece of wargear when I was building my list. It was a 40K event and technically I was playing a 2010 pt list at 2K point value. No one had caught it. I walked up to the TO, explained what I realized, and asked my win's to be stripped. I'd likely have won the event, but honestly did not want it like that. The TO was happy I owned my mistake, I earned best sports ironically as all 3 opponents rated me as their favorite game. My Rd1 Opponent took best overall.

It should be just a game, its that's simple. Play hard, compete, and play right. Win or lose, the guy on the other side of the table should feel respected, have a honest and fun game, and walk away feeling like he wouldn't mind playing against you again.

And your R1 opponent won, because after you tooled him (I'm guessing was the case because you said you'd likely have won)...he got 2 easy matches...then his battle points boosted later.

While I think you did the right thing...as a TO, I'm not sure how I would have handled it. Retroactively giving people points in a swiss matchup tournaments really buggers things up. How does the guy who thinks he is on table 1 round 4 feel...when the guy playing on middle tables all day wins overall because of the situation. Unfortunately this is a situation that goes beyond just 1 player if its not caught immediately.

How would other TO's handle it?

Later,
WR

Um, no. He did not get a Rd2 easy match up. First, yes I won my first round game, but at no point did I indicate I "tooled him." Although i'm not sure what that references. I beat my opponent on an objective mission. I didn't have a issues as the game could have gone either way. His next match up was a wych cult raider list which is never a easy matchup. I have no issues the way the TO handled it, although in a larger event could have been a huge factor.

The only issue we had was someone pitching a fit and insulting his opponent for bringing an incredibly hard list...

He basically got told off by half the players saying if he was going to whine about lists not to come to ard'boyz

ShivanAngel wrote:The only issue we had was someone pitching a fit and insulting his opponent for bringing an incredibly hard list...

He basically got told off by half the players saying if he was going to whine about lists not to come to ard'boyz

Please tell me he wasn't an adult...(he's totally going to be in his 30's isn't he...)

plastictrees wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:The only issue we had was someone pitching a fit and insulting his opponent for bringing an incredibly hard list...

He basically got told off by half the players saying if he was going to whine about lists not to come to ard'boyz

Please tell me he wasn't an adult...(he's totally going to be in his 30's isn't he...)

Probably early 20's

Well I had fun at Ard Boyz. Played against 2 dwarf and a bret list.

Everyone had a good time. No one complained about hard lists. No one complained about extreme competition.

No whiners

Drama isnt complete without it being about someone on dakka :( Fantasy 'ardboyz is so tame

GW should run 40k 'ard boyz every month so this section is hopping with accusations and ego trips

your TO was super lenient with the guy given that the instructions from GW were crystal clear...if youre over points, youre DQ'ed.

letting the guy 'fix' his list mid tournament and still play just coddles people that either A)cant do basic math to have a legal list, or B) play the 'oops, i messed up tee hee' card. either way he should have been DQ'ed. especially given it was freakin ard boyz.

ser_hag wrote:your TO was super lenient with the guy given that the instructions from GW were crystal clear...if youre over points, youre DQ'ed.

letting the guy 'fix' his list mid tournament and still play just coddles people that either A)cant do basic math to have a legal list, or B) play the 'oops, i messed up tee hee' card. either way he should have been DQ'ed. especially given it was freakin ard boyz.

Agreed. If I had been the TO, he would be disqualified. Period. He had a warning, that is enough. As was said, few rules for 'Ard Boyz, but a legal list is one of them.

Mr Mystery wrote:It seems easy to say 'oh, it's only 50 points'

...who is saying that? I don't think anyone will tell you 50 points isn't a big deal, and no one in this thread certainly did.

The worst part is was predicted to show up with a bad list and than he did!

You did the right thing btw.

After the drama of the Nova, I got my hopes up for a nice bit of gossip and interwebs entertainments, and I'm a bit disapointed!

barlio wrote:Ok so before Ard Boyz this last weekend I was warned that one of the participants was most likely going to have an illegal list (we'll call him Skinny). Said player was running too many points in Characters and not enough in Core (or was at least tending to in pick-up games).

Just out of curiousity, who mentioned to you about this? Was it the TO or just some players at the event?

In the UK we tend to have players submitting lists a couple of weeks before an event to try and sort out problems like this. Most of the time there are no problems and it tends to be comments asking players to tone down lists as it's not what the TOs want to have at their event (for example if people aren't playing in a cut throat event).

So back to our game. I look over his list (handwritten in legible fashion) and I notice that he is about 50pts shy of Core Minimum. I immediately take the list to the TO and tell him the situation. TO has another discussion with him, but doesn't DQ him. He corrects his list and we go onto play our game (which I proceed to hand him his butt). I believe after the tournament he had to take a loss from the first round.

I just wanted to run the situation by your guys and see if I made the right choice and to ask what your thoughts are on situations like this.

You did the exactly the right thing. It's up to the TO to manage the players at an event but equally it's up to the players to let the TO know about any problems. One of the last events I was at there was somebody with an 'illegal' list (in the rules pack not in the rule book) which was pointed out to the TO. As we were playing in a friendly event nobody was that bothered.

The person that warned me was the individual he played first round. It actually worked out for him because it put pitted him against a weedier player in the second round and he got the massacre for first round since his opponent's list wasn't legit.

My friend is the 2nd alternate for the Semi-finals so I might get to fight alongside him at the Semis anyways (along with his son).

Ah, that makes sense then. I was a bit worried that somebody knew before the event!