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Hi. I just bought 14 plague marines and was wondering whats the best way to equip them? Should i make 2 squads of seven with 2 plasma guns? Or should i do something els with them? What do you guys think is best?

2 Plasma guns or 2 Melta Guns. Power Fist optional

^ Yes.
Don't forget the awesome Metal Bowxes for the Plaguies.

Thanks for the help guys. I just made a new list and will be posting it.

2 melta guns, power fist on the champion, rhino is how I equip plague marines.

How will you be using the squad(s) of Plague Marines?

6 plague marines
Fist
Combi-melta
melta
flamer

I try to keep the cost down: 7 Plague Marines, 2 Melta Guns, Rhino...that's it.

They're pretty darn good with 2 plasma guns. You hardly ever want to assault with them (they're lousy at CC) so you'll be rapid-firing a fair bit. The FNP makes them pretty resiliant to Gets Hot!

I'm on the fence about the fist. Seems like enemy power fists/weapons just chew the plagues up. They're doomed in a fight against a real assault squad and they're better off shooting a tactical squad then getting into it's face.

I used to run just 7 marines with two plasma and a rhino. That was it. They are simple but very resilient.

You want the power fist if your opponents enjoy sending their high-T MC's and/or Dreadnoughts (or equivalents) at your plague marines. Melta helps here too, but assuming the enemy makes it into the assault:

Without the power fist, your marines are doomed to die, and the high-S, armour ignoring attacks make their toughness laughable.

With the fist, such enemies are less likely to attack your Plague marines if there are other targets around, giving you more freedom to capture objectives, melta/plasma stuff, etc. Also, if they do attack you, at least you can defend yourself.

Xca|iber wrote:You want the power fist if your opponents enjoy sending their high-T MC's and/or Dreadnoughts (or equivalents) at your plague marines. Melta helps here too, but assuming the enemy makes it into the assault:

Without the power fist, your marines are doomed to die, and the high-S, armour ignoring attacks make their toughness laughable.

With the fist, such enemies are less likely to attack your Plague marines if there are other targets around, giving you more freedom to capture objectives, melta/plasma stuff, etc. Also, if they do attack you, at least you can defend yourself.

Yeah and no. I mean, odds are you aren't running PMs exclusively so, assuming they survive the first round of combat, you can always charge in with something else in case things get ugly. You should really be trying to keep them from being assaulted as well.

Defensive grenades take away a lot of the punch of enemy assault units. So most likely they'll survive the first round of combat even against a Termie squad. If you mathhammer it out, 5 TH/SS Terminators vs. 7 PMs. The 7 PMs get 14 attacks, 7 hit, 3 or 4 wound, 50/50 on killing a Terminator. The Terminators generate 10 attacks even on the charge assuming they haven't lost a squadmember, 5 will hit, most likely 4 will wound...4 dead PMs. 4 fearless saves, say 2 fail...FNP...5 total dead PMs. That's taking a charge from a very hefty assault unit. On average, a Champion with a Fist is going to cost over 60 points, and will only kill two Terminators in return if you get extremely lucky. You're still going to get hosed in the 2nd round of combat.

thehod wrote:6 plague marines
Fist
Combi-melta
melta
flamer

It's a good configuration, particularly if you have multiple squads.

Xca|iber wrote:You want the power fist if your opponents enjoy sending their high-T MC's and/or Dreadnoughts (or equivalents) at your plague marines. Melta helps here too, but assuming the enemy makes it into the assault:

Without the power fist, your marines are doomed to die, and the high-S, armour ignoring attacks make their toughness laughable.

With the fist, such enemies are less likely to attack your Plague marines if there are other targets around, giving you more freedom to capture objectives, melta/plasma stuff, etc. Also, if they do attack you, at least you can defend yourself.

Gah, again with power fists as insurance. How many attacks does a PF guy get? How many will hit. How many will wound/pen, and what are the chances you will do enough wounds/pen results to destroy? PF in squads as insurance against walkers and MC is NOT good math. +15 to upgrade to a plague champion. +25 for the fist. 40 points for TWO attacks? In a squad that isn't even good in CC and costs per model way more than loyalist marines? You don't need any help handicapping yourself, GW did that by writing the book.

If a MC or Dred gets into CC with your unit. Its going to die. Somewhere you screwed up, got outplayed, or simply used them as bait. They are done, don't waste points on a lost cause.

As for the use of plague marines how I see them.... They are durable scoring troops that can take 2 special weapons even in a small squad. Use them to score, and for their special weapon density. At 170 points, 2 meltas and a rhino isn't too bad. Or a bit more for plasma (if you want more volume of AP fire.) As scoring troops they are pretty effective. In fact, I would only run plagues and vanilla CSM in a competitive list.

^"how I see them"

Which is the point, and it being fine and good.
Fists are insurance is just how a different group of people see it.

I know that for me, they have done well enough to be auto-includes for me. I run plague marines very aggressively, so for them to be able to say "I can handle anything in the 40k Universe," is much desired.

Screwing up happens and getting outplayed happens whether it be by player skill or just plain old dice.
Fists >can< solve alot of problems, and do so at least for me, more than the cost/benefit analysis would say.

Even then a fist can fail, yes, and they do. But if you don't set yourself up to deal with issues that WILL (not if) go wrong, then you have no chance. A slim chance is better than no chance in my book.

Or you could spend the points on other things that have a better chance of working. With vanilla marines you only have to pay 25 + cost of the marine, and its still not a good buy. With Chaos, you have to pay more per model in the squad, pay for a sarge (with fearless does nothing other than hold wargear and get +1 attack) and pay for the fist. So 40 points in upgrades on a 23 point marine... 63 points for 2 power fist attacks? How is that remotely good? If you want powerfists in a chaos army, take them in squads that are meant to take them (like termies)

Fists fail FAR more than they work. Lets say you are in combat with a dred, AV 12. For some reason you thought it might be a good idea to charge too (just to give the best advantage to the fist). 3 attacks. 1.5 hits. .5 pens. .166 destroyed. So that is about 16-17% chance in the best scenario of a destroyed result. If you are charged: 2 attacks, 1 hit .33 pens, .11 destroyed. 11% destroyed.

Well how about krak grenades? 5 guys attack, .83 hits, .27 pen, .09 destroyed. So the free squad upgrade destroys about 9% of the time...

Now if you combine the chance of lets say 4 guys with krak and the fist... you still end up failing most of the time.

Now against hive tyrants or fexes other typical 4 wound T5-6 MC... Assuming no invul saves the fist can finish off a wounded one. Even then you shouldn't really go for it unless it has 1 or maybe two wounds remaining. And you are going to take nasty losses doing so.

Or I could stick with what's worked for me in the past.

True, there is an oppurtunity cost.

I have 3 fists in my 1850-2000 Nurgle lists.
Lets say I dropped 2 of them, as I prob. would run that one squad more aggressively than the other two.
80 points... enough for:

1 Oblit.
2 Spawn.
Pred with a combi weapon.
6 Lesser Daemons.

...I'm just saying, just dropping a fist or two does not mean you have points for something that operates better/similarly.

If I were to take the advice of the internets and have all my fists gone, that would be a cool 120 which 'actually' opens up more options...but that means all my Plague Marines squads would have to operate more defensively and rely on other elements of my army MORE than before, where as they would have been more self-sufficient with a fist.

I'm not saying they should be spammed, but even with the extra attack nerf from 4th to 5th, they still perform a specific function, YMMV of course.

Obviously my local meta is not yours, nor encompasses the whole world. But there are at least two distinct groups that are yay or nay to the fists and each have experiences that say yay or nay to the fists as well.

Agree to disagree.
_____________________________________

On a different note, chaos_gundam, what else is in your list?
If we are equipping the PM's to 'fit' into the pre-existing list it would maybe help dictate what special weapons they should be toting and/or if a champion is warrented.

^Agreed. its all personal prefrence. i give PF to my melta PM and Swords to my Plasma as Insurance, better to be safe than sorry IMO.

and yes what else are you going to running?

Well, I run the following with the plague marines

2 Nurgle daemon princes with warptime

1 Squad of 10 CSM with 2 melta guns, champ with power fist, IOCG in a rhino with extra armour

2 squads of 2 obliterators

A Vindicator with daemonic possession

I think thats it. So what do you think would be best?

To power fist or not to power fist... that is the question.

Well, you do want 7-10 plague marines in a rhino to support the main push that is the Vindi and the CSMs.

If you want a claim objective and add cover fire, then Plasmas are fine, while the fist is 50/50 really.
I won't say that there is such a thing as 'too much melta' , and a fist complimients the meltas.
Flamers would suppliment the list, though the choice for a fist on the flamer squad is a bit harder.

Well, I've made my opinion clear on paying for PFs sarges: Is 40 points for 2 attacks PF worth it?

I don't see the point of the extra armor. 15 points to downgrade one result on the chart? Stunned happens 1/6 times. Not a good value, if you are going to spend those points you might as well demonically posses it for 5 points more and ignore 1/3 of the pen results. (and 2/3 of the glancing results).

notabot187 wrote:Well, I've made my opinion clear on paying for PFs sarges: Is 40 points for 2 attacks PF worth it?

I don't see the point of the extra armor. 15 points to downgrade one result on the chart? Stunned happens 1/6 times. Not a good value, if you are going to spend those points you might as well demonically posses it for 5 points more and ignore 1/3 of the pen results. (and 2/3 of the glancing results).

EA works well on a Rhino if it's full of things that need to keep moving. What kills Rhinos often is immobility. If you've got a pricey squad inside, say a bunch of Berzerkers and an IC, it's no big deal to spend 15 extra points to help them get to where they need to go. Possession on something like that is a waste, as it isn't armed with anything that justifies the extra 5 points.

You need one more troop, berserkers are good,try them.
Champion with power weapon is nice!!!(if anti tank take pf)

For plague marines, plasma guns are good(over heating is useless to them)

It's only when you hit a critical mass of say.... 3 rhino-borne squads that EA is not on a 'need' basis because you can then rely on Armor Saturation instead.

@notabot187:

Is 40 points for 2 attacks PF worth it?

Every time (for me), but this is not the answer you are fishing for.

*sad panda face* :-(

@Noah:
They are pretty good at what they do, the Zerkers, but this topic, at least as I've read it, is focusing on Plague Marines, the love-child of the GW development team 4th Edition-wise.

thehod wrote:6 plague marines
Fist
Combi-melta
Plasma
Plasma
Rhino
Havoc Launcher

Fixed that to save me time

I like the havoc launcher because it gives the rhino something to do after it dumps the marines off. Double plasma because it's worth more on FNP marines. Fist and Combi-Melta because they're fun. I might not use them though.
Depending on the game size, I may bump the model count up to ten.

I use 10, it's not cost effective in terms of getting more bite with respect to special weapons, but if you baby them, damn they are annoying to the enemy