Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey folks!

So a necron lord is by himself. He dies in assault. After consolidation, enemy consolidates over him. He makes his WBB (rez orb). Now what? There's no rule that we can find about whether he consolidates away, consolidates into combat, or what.

well, I'm going to go with the 5th ed IG codex for what happens with Commissar Yarrick when he passes his Iron Will. If he would be revived into base contact with an enemy, move him 1" away.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

So a necron lord is by himself. He dies in assault. After consolidation, enemy consolidates over him. He makes his WBB (rez orb). Now what? There's no rule that we can find about whether he consolidates away, consolidates into combat, or what.

I already told you silly cat.

He comes back outside of combat.

Gwar! wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

So a necron lord is by himself. He dies in assault. After consolidation, enemy consolidates over him. He makes his WBB (rez orb). Now what? There's no rule that we can find about whether he consolidates away, consolidates into combat, or what.

I already told you silly cat.

He comes back outside of combat.

Yeah but where does he stand if he would be within 1" beacuse of it?

You keep him as close as possible to his original location, but with the 1" rule for being near enemy models.

Gwar! wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

So a necron lord is by himself. He dies in assault. After consolidation, enemy consolidates over him. He makes his WBB (rez orb). Now what? There's no rule that we can find about whether he consolidates away, consolidates into combat, or what.

I already told you silly cat.

He comes back outside of combat.

False.

Necron FAQ wrote:
Q. If a damaged Necron Lord is unable to get
back up without being within 1” of an enemy
model is he considered destroyed, or does he go
right into combat?
A. A Necron Lord who gets up within 1" of an
enemy model must be moved directly into
combat with an enemy model within 1" of him
(neither counts as charging).

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

There ya go.

Edited for clumsy typing.

I'd be curious as to how you came to the conclusion that the lord would be moved.

You can't move within 1" of an enemy, that is true. But I'm not sure standing back up from WBB counts as movement. What leads you to conclude standing up from WBB is movement?

Seems to me that the imply that you place the lord on his feet where he had previously lost his last wound, regardless of how close enemies are.

edit: And the FAQ seems to agree with me!

Monster Rain wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

So a necron lord is by himself. He dies in assault. After consolidation, enemy consolidates over him. He makes his WBB (rez orb). Now what? There's no rule that we can find about whether he consolidates away, consolidates into combat, or what.

I already told you silly cat.

He comes back outside of combat.

False.

Necron FAQ wrote:
Q. If a damaged Necron Lord is unable to get
back up without being within 1” of an enemy
model is he considered destroyed, or does he go
right into combat?
A. A Necron Lord who gets up within 1" of an
enemy model must be moved directly into
combat with an enemy model within 1" of him
(neither counts as charging).

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

There ya go.

Edited for clumsy typing.

You just made the mistake of quoting FAQ to Gwar as RAW!

Not so say its wrong, I have no idea how RAW would work in this case, Seems like a good way to play it to me.

Why is that a mistake?

YMTC Tenants:

...

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. [...]

del'Vhar wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

So a necron lord is by himself. He dies in assault. After consolidation, enemy consolidates over him. He makes his WBB (rez orb). Now what? There's no rule that we can find about whether he consolidates away, consolidates into combat, or what.

I already told you silly cat.

He comes back outside of combat.

False.

Necron FAQ wrote:
Q. If a damaged Necron Lord is unable to get
back up without being within 1” of an enemy
model is he considered destroyed, or does he go
right into combat?
A. A Necron Lord who gets up within 1" of an
enemy model must be moved directly into
combat with an enemy model within 1" of him
(neither counts as charging).

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

There ya go.

Edited for clumsy typing.

You just made the mistake of quoting FAQ to Gwar as RAW!

It's not a mistake. His position is well-documented. I was posted it for the benefit of those he was intentionally misleading.

That is how it is played by... well... everyone that knows what the GW FAQ is.

Dracos wrote:Why is that a mistake?

YMTC Tenants:

...

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. [...]

Also this.

Guess what? FAQ AINT RULES!

But ok, if you use the FAQ, you end up in combat. I didn't check for obvious reasons.

Gwar! wrote:Guess what? FAQ AINT RULES!

But ok, if you use the FAQ, you end up in combat. I didn't check for obvious reasons.

Tenants of YMTC:

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs.

Yes, for our purposes they are rules.

Source of Information ≠ Rules. But lets just drop this before I get another holiday, ok?

Splitting hairs to avoid admitting you were wrong? Its not a big deal - happens to everyone. Just seems weird that you won't admit it.

Outside the FAQ, how would you come to the conclusion that you are placed outside of combat? I don't understand that either, unless you are saying WBB counts as movement.

Dracos wrote:Splitting hairs to avoid admitting you were wrong? Its not a big deal - happens to everyone. Just seems weird that you won't admit it.

Outside the FAQ, how would you come to the conclusion that you are placed outside of combat? I don't understand that either, unless you are saying WBB counts as movement.

Well for this we can use similar situations dealt with in 5th ed codex's. Also the fact that by downing the lord you have won combat and are thus for all intensive purposes (other then the FAQ) out of combat at this point in time. So as a result if he gets back up, he is not in combat ( if the faq is not used) When not in combat you must be 1" away from enemy models.

And I was wrong too, as I didn't have said FAQ in front of me as well. Good catch too.

Draggoon wrote:Well for this we can use similar situations dealt with in 5th ed codex's. Also the fact that by downing the lord you have won combat and are thus for all intensive purposes (other then the FAQ) out of combat at this point in time. So as a result if he gets back up, he is not in combat ( if the faq is not used) When not in combat you must be 1" away from enemy models.

Can you quote a rule for that? I know the rule state that you can't move within 1" (p.11) but nothing I can find says you if you find yourself within 1" after legal moves have been executed than you have to move out of 1".

Dracos wrote:

Draggoon wrote:Well for this we can use similar situations dealt with in 5th ed codex's. Also the fact that by downing the lord you have won combat and are thus for all intensive purposes (other then the FAQ) out of combat at this point in time. So as a result if he gets back up, he is not in combat ( if the faq is not used) When not in combat you must be 1" away from enemy models.

Can you quote a rule for that? I know the rule state that you can't move within 1" (p.11) but nothing I can find says you if you find yourself within 1" after legal moves have been executed than you have to move out of 1".

Can you quote something stating they are automatically in combat (please remember this is outside of the FAQ), IF not then the closest rule that can be quoted I have quoted previously Commissar Yarrick's Iron Will rule.

Sure.

Necron codex p.13 wrote:We'll be back!
Necron Lords[...]if they self-repair, they will stand up with 1 wound, not their full 3.[...]

Standing up is never defined, and we are never told where to stand them up. The most reasonable interpretation I can come up with is to conclude that they stand up in the place they are laying on their side.

Rule book p.35 wrote:Who can fight?
Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are said to be 'locked in combat'. [..]

Therefore, if you surround the downed necron lord in such a way that when he stands up in place, and is put into base to base as a result, then he becomes locked in combat automatically. If he is within 1" but not base to base there is a hole in the rules where neither he nor the enemy unit will be able to move out of the 1" zone because you can't move through the space 1" around an enemy model.

All the FAQ does is remove this hole, where the necron lord stands up within 1" but not in b2b, so that he is just placed in b2b instead of in a zone where neither can move out of it (but can still assault to resolve the situation).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yarrick's Iron will has nothing to do with WBB AFAIK. I'm not sure why you brought it up.

Even if they are similar rules, they do not interact in any way and one will not prove anything about the other.

Dracos wrote:Sure.

Necron codex p.13 wrote:We'll be back!
Necron Lords[...]if they self-repair, they will stand up with 1 wound, not their full 3.[...]

Standing up is never defined, and we are never told where to stand them up. The most reasonable interpretation I can come up with is to conclude that they stand up in the place they are laying on their side.

Rule book p.35 wrote:Who can fight?
Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are said to be 'locked in combat'. [..]

Therefore, if you surround the downed necron lord in such a way that when he stands up in place, and is put into base to base as a result, then he becomes locked in combat automatically. If he is within 1" but not base to base there is a hole in the rules where neither he nor the enemy unit will be able to move out of the 1" zone because you can't move through the space 1" around an enemy model.

All the FAQ does is remove this hole, where the necron lord stands up within 1" but not in b2b, so that he is just placed in b2b instead of in a zone where neither can move out of it (but can still assault to resolve the situation).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yarrick's Iron will has nothing to do with WBB AFAIK. I'm not sure why you brought it up.

Even if they are similar rules, they do not interact in any way and one will not prove anything about the other.

Ok, throw yarricks rule out, but you forgot about consolidation in the BRB. Pg. 40, you cannot use consolidation to move in base contact with a model, also you must stop all models 1" away from any enemy model on the table when consolidating. The lord is still on the table until his WBB roll is done, therefore you must maintain a 1 inch bubble form him as a result of your consolidation. Therefore it is impossible for him to be in base contact upon standing.

So you are saying that WBB is consolidating?

Dashofpepper wrote:

So a necron lord is by himself. He dies in assault. After consolidation, enemy consolidates over him. He makes his WBB (rez orb). Now what? There's no rule that we can find about whether he consolidates away, consolidates into combat, or what.

The enemy has consolidated.

Ahh, you are saying that the enemy models can't place the lord in that situation. Humm... seems accurate. So you can't actually consolidate within 1" of a downed necron anyways.

I don't see anything that disagrees with your interpretation. Its not that the necron lord is restricted when he gets up, its that if you follow the movement rules for other models he can never be placed in that situation.

Dracos wrote:Ahh, you are saying that the enemy models can't place the lord in that situation. Humm... seems accurate. So you can't actually consolidate within 1" of a downed necron anyways.

I don't see anything that disagrees with your interpretation. Its not that the necron lord is restricted when he gets up, its that if you follow the movement rules for other models he can never be placed in that situation.

We have a winner!

As to your other line of questioning, even though it's been rendered pointless, I'd have said the idea to compare it to Yarrick's rule is along the right lines (you know, other than being proved wrong by the FAQ ). I would have likened it to tank shock: your model was here, now the enemy's there and you need to be 1" away.

I shall now leave this part of the forum, for its inherent silliness is generally beyond my coping abilities.

So the FAQ was to help people who can't follow RAW?
Hmm

Dracos wrote:Splitting hairs to avoid admitting you were wrong? Its not a big deal - happens to everyone. Just seems weird that you won't admit it.

He's not doing it to avoid being wrong. He's doing it because he enjoys splitting hairs for the sake of the discussion and of understanding the rules. Gwar has a well-established position that in his opinion (with some support from GW's phrasing on their website) the GW FAQs are not the same as errata, and therefore do not constitute official rules at the same level as the errata and the rulebooks themselves. This allows him to avoid the cognitive dissonance of places in the FAQ where GW actually appears to be changing the rules, but presents said changes as being mere clarifications and explanations. I can see his point, from a pure intellectual standpoint. That said, in most cases I find that whether GW calls it a clarification or an actual errata, it still clarifies the situation and gives me a clear and neutral rules decision to share with an opponent. And thus I am just as happy to use the FAQs, even if they seem occasionally to be mislabeled.

Dracos wrote:Outside the FAQ, how would you come to the conclusion that you are placed outside of combat? I don't understand that either, unless you are saying WBB counts as movement.

Were it not for the FAQ, I'd actually agree with Gwar on this rule. The only way (normally) for a unit to get into assault is for it to declare an assault in the assault phase, and then be moved into contact with an enemy unit following the instructions for launching an assault. Once one side (unit, in a combat involving two units) is destroyed, a combat ends. A formerly-dead unit standing up at the beginning of the turn via WBB circumvents the normal assault process. The 1" Away rules normally doesn't allow any way for enemy units to get into contact other than launching an assault, or tank-shocking/ramming. The main rulebook and the codex don't really give you an answer for this situation, but IMO the most intuitive way to handle it, the most consistent with the regular rules, would be to disallow getting a unit into assault this way. That said, the FAQ ruled the way it did, and I'm content to play it that way.

Stop arguing about whether FAQs are rules or not. It is completely unhelpful for resolving a rules query.

All you can say is that if you use the FAQs, then the answer is A, and if you don't use the FAQs, then the answer is B.

It is logically impossible to reconcile these two positions.

.....

hungryp wrote:

Dracos wrote:Ahh, you are saying that the enemy models can't place the lord in that situation. Humm... seems accurate. So you can't actually consolidate within 1" of a downed necron anyways.

I don't see anything that disagrees with your interpretation. Its not that the necron lord is restricted when he gets up, its that if you follow the movement rules for other models he can never be placed in that situation.

We have a winner!

As to your other line of questioning, even though it's been rendered pointless, I'd have said the idea to compare it to Yarrick's rule is along the right lines (you know, other than being proved wrong by the FAQ ). I would have likened it to tank shock: your model was here, now the enemy's there and you need to be 1" away.

I shall now leave this part of the forum, for its inherent silliness is generally beyond my coping abilities.

Actually guys if you read the necron codex and IIRC, when you lay a model over on its side it counts as part of the terrain. Just food for thought, seeing how it is no longer a regular model but counts as terrain enemy models are not effected by the 1'' away rule.

I like to see things from the miniatures' point of view.

The thought crossing my mind if I were the marine being moved would be "I am NOT getting close to that robot, they're not always dead"

So, to me, using the rule that one cannot move a model within 1" of a downed necron seems perfectly reasonable.

However, I also see that a downed necron coming back up being launched into close combat is also perfectly reasonable, because as he's getting up, he's likely trying to kill things.

Just the two cents I have from placing myself in the model's shoes, though. Definitely not to be taken as canon, more of a though provoker.