micro Dakka Chimera

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**gendoikari87**

Basically during the next few months I'll be testing out this new unit to see how it works out.

Veteran squad [215][Harker, chimera, heavy stubber, 3 Grenade launchers, Heavy Bolter]

For those keeping count when this chimera does not move, it has:

6 BS3 Str 5 shots
4 BS3 Str 4 shots

6 BS4 Str 5 shots
3 BS4 Str 3 3" template blasts

or a grand total of 16 shots, and 3 blast templates, all in a scoring vehicle of doomy doom.

**Irdiumstern**

Wait you're giving the chimera a turret heavy bolter? That's a terrible idea. It's only better than the Multilaser in one case, T3 units with a 4 or 5 armor save out of cover.
Also, Harker gives the squad infiltrate, so you could outflank that thing if you wanted to.

**Jaon**

Giving it a heavy bolter is not a terrible idea, multilasers are crap. Heavy bolters lets you put the hurt on warriors and stealers, ardboyz and all other light infantry. Multilaser is in the middle of no where, it cant touch vehicles effectively or pass any sort of reasonable armour.

This is an interesting combination, but isnt this getting in the 200 points range?

**gendoikari87**

well multi-laser, heavy bolter both give 3 shots.

Can vehicles infiltrate if their occupants can? IIRC they can't, but outflank seems like a good idea. but I was just thinking take turn one to move 12" preferably onto an objective, stop and start dakkaing away.

This is an interesting combination, but isnt this getting in the 200 points range?

Yeah but you get what equates to a thinner skinned punisher, that can score. just a different way of delivery. It's a trade off, of protection for scoring ability.

**don_mondo**

Point of Order, Heavy Stubber only fires 3 shots.............. So it's 15 shots, plus three blasts (or three ST6 Krak grenades).

Re multilaser vs heavy nolter, my preference is the multilaser. Outflank it and you'll generally have side armor shots, so between it and the GL, that's 6 x ST6 shots at AV 11 (rhino/predator) or 10 (our beloved chimeras). True, it has a difficult time hurting AV 12, but it can do so, which the heavy bolter has zero chance of doing. I had high hopes that the codex (codex, not IA) would include an autocannon option, but oh well.

**mattyboy1**

this is a great strategy, amazing amount of shots from that one vehicle and at range too

when it comes to taking advantage of the 5 fire points of a chimera i personally though i prefer this

junior officer
heavy flamer
3 flamers
chimera
with hull mounted heavy flamer

total of 5 flame templates raining down on a close unit, excellent against horde armies, but i have also found it to be effective against armies with reasonalbe and great armour saves.
an example, the norm army i play against is space marines (whos isnt

), more specifically space wolves and DA's deathwing, with all models havin a 3 or 2+ save one would think flamers wouldnt have much effect, not if you use 5

, a norm squad of deathwing termies is 5, by forcing them to take heaps of saves your bound to kill at least 2 or 3 if not the whole squad, though this tactics comes at a risk, if they dont kill every single termies they norm always die, but i much rather trade a rather inexpesive unit, for the majority of a unit of termies

though harker outflanking is tempting, perhaps i will give your unit a go

**gendoikari87**

yeah I've used the micro hellhound from time to time as well. It's a feared weapon by anyones standards, and quickly burns anything it can get to. only problem I ever ran into is the opponent usually stops just outside of range, and on the last turn runs and contests the objective, meaning it might have just as well been a normal hell hound. But it does make orks go bye bye

**Ailaros**

Firstly, the heavy bolter is bad at everything except for in the circumstance listed above, while the multilaser is bad at everything all the time (regardless of how marginally less terrible it is than the heavy bolter in these circumstances).

That said, this is still a bad idea. Of course, this will have nothing doing against any vehicular targets but DE skimmers, so looking at infantry targets...

7 S5 hits, 2 S4 hits 2 S6 hits

GEq: 8 dead out of cover, 4 dead in cover
MEq: 2.5 dead
TEq: 1.5 dead

Seriously, you're going to spend 215 points for something that's medium quality, at best. Heck, a PUNISHER does roughly this much damage for fewer points, and nobody takes punishers because they don't do enough damage for their points.

Sure, they count as scoring, but still...

**gendoikari87**

actually its more like 3 Meq dead a comprable amount of hits to a punisher, just counting as scoring.

**Da-Rock**

I never fully understood how the 40k community goes in spurts on what it likes/dislikes etc. Just a couple months ago HBs on a Chimera was insanely stupid and Multilaser was god!

Now I see it has flipped, but the reasoning doesn't make much sense because the two factors I see are:

STR & AP

Laser has higher STR and wounding ability
Bolter has better AP

Unless you are after a Horde style army I don't see why anyone would waste their time on a HB?

**Lycaeus Wrex**

Ailaros wrote:Firstly, the heavy bolter is bad at everything except for in the circumstance listed above, while the multilaser is bad at everything all the time (regardless of how marginally less terrible it is than the heavy bolter in these circumstances).

Ahhhh, it's almost as if our debates had never gone away...

Right, let's try and translate this...HB are bad at everything except against light infantry, where the higher AP value comes into play. Considering the higher propensity of cover in 5th anyway, this benefit can be pretty much ommited almost immediately, as those units whose armour would have been beaten will have at the very least the chance of receiving a 4+ cover save.

A multi-laser has a higher chance of wounding T4 models than a heavy bolter, but misses out on the AP. It also has a slim chance of damaging transports upto those of a Chimera AV, of whch the heavy bolter cannot hurt at all. Now, seeing as models will always get a 4+ save or better from either weapon, the higher chances of wounding would make the multi-laser better than the HB, as you are forcing more saves and thus increasing the liklihood of killing a model. Furthermore, a slim chance of damaging a vehicle is much better than no chance at all, making the multi-laser the better choice in this role as well.

So..tell me again...how is the multi-laser bad at everything all the time when a heavy bolter is only bad in a select few circumstances? It would appear to me that you've got those completely backwards.

Multi-laser > Heavy bolter. There's absoloutely no logic in arguing to the contrary.

L. Wrex

**Illumini**

I do agree with Ailaros that this is a bad idea. It is very expensive for the amount of damage it can deal/recieve. 215pts is insane for 10 guardsmen + a chimera. You can get a platoon + a chimera for pretty much the same price

Multilaser is better than heavy bolter

**kill dem stunties**

Yea, but then again, Ailros will argue all day about how you shouldnt take any long range antitank. Meltaguns 6" effective range is ALWAYS good enough *rolls eyes*

**Da-Rock**

I did some testing with that moving and standing still - it really only comes into any decent form using the Infiltrate rule that Harker gets.

Infiltrate into a nice fire lane to some troops and first turn whamo - (of course not going first ruins that)

I jumped all over with wounds and kills when rolling and averaged 2 to 3 kills with standing still (against AV 3) - going aginst low armor or cover saves would increase that, but since this only shines with standing still I factored in AV 3 as a standard.

Switching to Multi Laser and straight str 6 grenade launchers ups the kill ratio to around 4 kills

If the original poster had horde armies in mind to fight then Me Likey! against anything else - it stinkey!!

**Illumini**

Against horde armies, a PCS with 4x flamer in a chimera is a much better deal. It's also just 105pts, so you can take two for the price of this one overpriced squad. (or if you only have one platoon, grab a SWS and shove them into another chimera) That is just one option that is way superior to this against hordes (and most other stuff too), if you go outside of the troop section, there are tons of better anti-horde options available to guard

**gendoikari87**

Da-Rock wrote:I did some testing with that moving and standing still - it really only comes into any decent form using the Infiltrate rule that Harker gets.

Infiltrate into a nice fire lane to some troops and first turn whamo - (of course not going first ruins that)

I jumped all over with wounds and kills when rolling and averaged 2 to 3 kills with standing still (against AV 3) - going aginst low armor or cover saves would increase that, but since this only shines with standing still I factored in AV 3 as a standard.

Switching to Multi Laser and straight str 6 grenade launchers ups the kill ratio to around 4 kills

If the original poster had horde armies in mind to fight then Me Likey! against anything else - it stinkey!!

the idea isn't just for hoarde, it's horde at range. the super flamer set up, is nice but requires getting close.

**Ailaros**

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:So..tell me again...how is the multi-laser bad at everything all the time when a heavy bolter is only bad in a select few circumstances? It would appear to me that you've got those completely backwards.

Multi-laser > Heavy bolter. There's absoloutely no logic in arguing to the contrary.

Both weapons are bad in most circumstances. Heavy bolters are actually good in one (light infantry out of cover). Multilasers are bad against everything all the time.

Yes, multilasers are better in several roles than heavy bolters, but "better" in this case means "less terrible" not "good". Some day you will understand this.

Da-Rock wrote:If the original poster had horde armies in mind to fight then Me Likey! against anything else - it stinkey!!

It's actually bad in both circumstances. Switching it to a multilaser does not significantly improve its killing power, and it's still terribly expensive either way.

gendoikari87 wrote:the idea isn't just for hoarde, it's horde at range. the super flamer set up, is nice but requires getting close.

Right, THIS actually has the potential to go somewhere. 3 regular flamer vets and 2 heavy flamers on the vet make it a mini-hellhound. Of course it's still much more expensive and for arguably less firepower (hellhound can twist its template).

**alarmingrick**

Ailaros wrote: Right, THIS actually has the potential to go somewhere. 3 regular flamer vets and 2 heavy flamers on the vet make it a mini-hellhound. Of course it's still much more expensive and for arguably less firepower (hellhound can twist its template).

and you'd be wasting Vets BS4 on flamers!!!

Clearly, the PCS would be the way to go with 4 flamers. and if you spend more points on something else, you might as well get the damn HH!
the Multilaser is the better option than the H bloter.
and sorry A man, the ML isn't a horrid as you make it sound....

**Ailaros**

alarmingrick wrote:and you'd be wasting Vets BS4 on flamers!!!
Clearly, the PCS would be the way to go with 4 flamers. and if you spend more points on something else, you might as well get the damn HH!

Well, right, all of this as well.

alarmingrick wrote:and sorry A man, the ML isn't a horrid as you make it sound....

I count a weapon that has to shoot for 2 or 3 turns to reliably kill a single marine model horrid. If you choose to think otherwise, that's fine, but it's a matter of definition of words here, not some sort of manifest supreme awesomeness of the weapon.

**Da-Rock**

Well since not every single weapon in the game has the same uber stats stating the ML is bad all of the time is just confusing.

A. You buy the transport at 55pts - with that you get several options that follow the point cost and army selection written in a codex.

B. Out of the options you get for the Chimera, the ML is the best. If we could we would like a Plasma Cannon, Assault Cannon or even an Autocannon, but there's a reason those aren't options....

Why word yourself around the fact that we are talking about the options available and the ML shines here.

**Lycaeus Wrex**

Ailaros wrote:Both weapons are bad in most circumstances. Heavy bolters are actually good in one (light infantry out of cover). Multilasers are bad against everything all the time.

Yes, multilasers are better in several roles than heavy bolters, but "better" in this case means "less terrible" not "good". Some day you will understand this.

Your comparing a multi-laser to every other weapon in the Guard codex. You simply cannot do that. If Chimeras (as Da-Rock stated) could choose a plasma cannon or a lascannon on their turret then yes, multi-lasers would, in comparison, be terrible as the other guns are far, far superior. This would also make Chimeras cost as much as Wave Serpents. However, this direction of arguement is completely moot as Chimeras cannot take plasma/lascannons so comparing a multi-laser with those guns, in the ML vs HB debate, is pointless.

Out of the options you are given the multi-laser is the superior weapon, there's no point decrying the best choice that you have because there are other, better guns elsewhere. We're looking at the merits solely of the Chimera here, not at the merits of a Chimera vs every other option in the IG codex. Some day you will understand this.

L. Wrex

**kenshin620**

Da-Rock wrote:

B. Out of the options you get for the Chimera, the ML is the best. If we could we would like a Plasma Cannon, Assault Cannon or even an Autocannon, but there's a reason those aren't options....

And this is why everyone is convinced that IA is OP

**Ailaros**

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Your comparing a multi-laser to every other weapon in the Guard codex.

Da-Rock wrote:Well since not every single weapon in the game has the same uber stats stating the ML is bad all of the time is just confusing.

I'm not, actually. I'm just looking at the raw damage output here. A single bout of multilaser fire will take 2 or 3 turns to kill a single marine (assuming it even gets to shoot because the transport is just sort of sitting around or moving slowly instead of doing its job as a transport). Likewise, it will kill about 1 GEq a turn.

Da-Rock wrote:Why word yourself around the fact that we are talking about the options available and the ML shines here.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Out of the options you are given the multi-laser is the superior weapon, there's no point decrying the best choice that you have because there are other, better guns elsewhere. We're looking at the merits solely of the Chimera here, not at the merits of a Chimera vs every other option in the IG codex. Some day you will understand this.

I understand very well that there are only 3 options for a chimera turret. Does the multilaser as one of these options "shine"? Only if you consider that you're going to be killing one marine every two or three turns of shooting or 1 GEq per turn of shooting "shine". I choose to call that "bad", and have yet to hear a good reason for why I should consider it to be a better weapon in my mind.

**I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly**

God, ML is a better weapon than a HB, never ever take a HB turret on a chimera. The AP4 is not a big benefit, it will only help you significantly against 4+ save troops not in cover (this is not a huge group). S6 is infinitely preferable. In response to the OP - I just don't think HBs are really worth it. They kill MEQs very slowly, and GEQs at a rate of about 1 a turn, more if not in cover and less if they are. I think that when shooting light troops, the best options are flame weapons, big templates, and free lasguns. When shooting elite troops, the best options are plasmaguns and AP ordnance templates. HBs are no longer a great choice.

**Jabbdo**

Ailaros wrote:
Lycaeus Wrex wrote:So..tell me again...how is the multi-laser bad at everything all the time when a heavy bolter is only bad in a select few circumstances? It would appear to me that you've got those completely backwards.

Multi-laser > Heavy bolter. There's absoloutely no logic in arguing to the contrary.

Both weapons are bad in most circumstances. Heavy bolters are actually good in one (light infantry out of cover). Multilasers are bad against everything all the time.

Yes, multilasers are better in several roles than heavy bolters, but "better" in this case means "less terrible" not "good". Some day you will understand this.

Da-Rock wrote:If the original poster had horde armies in mind to fight then Me Likey! against anything else - it stinkey!!

It's actually bad in both circumstances. Switching it to a multilaser does not significantly improve its killing power, and it's still terribly expensive either way.

gendoikari87 wrote:the idea isn't just for hoarde, it's horde at range. the super flamer set up, is nice but requires getting close.

Right, THIS actually has the potential to go somewhere. 3 regular flamer vets and 2 heavy flamers on the vet make it a mini-hellhound. Of course it's still much more expensive and for arguably less firepower (hellhound can twist its template).

Tell me, how is switching a weapon for another weapon that has the same amount of shots and +1str a bad idea? Oh wait, the HB has AP4! Whoopty-fu****-doo! AP values of 4-6 are obsolete anyway due to the abundance of cover in 5th ed. With str6 you are twice as likely to do something to av11, and can actually pen it. By all means, take HB's if you want. Your opponents will thank you for gimping your army. Getting +1str for free on your weapon is usually a good thing. Someday you might understand that. If you manage to get over your HB fetish.

**Ailaros**

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:S6 is infinitely preferable.

Infinitely? Can you show me the math on that?

Jabbdo wrote:With str6 you are twice as likely to do something to av11, and can actually pen it.

This means nothing without either context. How many turns of shooting at av11 with a multilaser will get you the desired result?

Jabbdo wrote:Getting +1str for free on your weapon is usually a good thing. Someday you might understand that. If you manage to get over your HB fetish.

I don't have an HB fetish. Asserting to the contrary won't make this true.

Furthermore, I very well understand the statline of the multilaser. That "some day" where I understand it is today. Of course, I'm also not making my judgements based on a single part of the statline of the weapon (not unlike taking a single verse out of the bible and making doctrine off of it). Lots of people (including you) seem to like to do that, but the end result is a terribly skewed way of looking at things. Look comprehensively at the weapon, and tell me why it's good.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:God, ML is a better weapon than a HB, never ever take a HB turret on a chimera. The AP4 is not a big benefit, it will only help you significantly against 4+ save troops not in cover (this is not a huge group).

It's telling to note that a heavy bolter shooting against light infantry in cover is TERRIBLE, and, in fact, the multilaser does the same amount of damage.

Yes, I agree that a good commander can minimize casualties due to cover and that this advantage is highly dependent on your opponent, not only for their army type but how they play it on the field. This is why I've been recommending against the dakka chimera.

However, I would also like to note that sometimes you DO get this advantage which means that the heavy bolter is "terrible" against all targets all the time except for sometimes when light infantry are out of cover in which case it rises to "mediocre". Multilasers, on the other hand are "terrible" against all targets always.

**Jabbdo**

Ailaros wrote:
I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:S6 is infinitely preferable.

Infinitely? Can you show me the math on that?

Jabbdo wrote:With str6 you are twice as likely to do something to av11, and can actually pen it.

This means nothing without either context. How many turns of shooting at av11 with a multilaser will get you the desired result?

Jabbdo wrote:Getting +1str for free on your weapon is usually a good thing. Someday you might understand that. If you manage to get over your HB fetish.

I don't have an HB fetish. Asserting to the contrary won't make this true.

Furthermore, I very well understand the statline of the multilaser. That "some day" where I understand it is today. Of course, I'm also not making my judgements based on a single part of the statline of the weapon (not unlike taking a single verse out of the bible and making doctrine off of it). Lots of people (including you) seem to like to do that, but the end result is a terribly skewed way of looking at things. Look comprehensively at the weapon, and tell me why it's good.

Str6 is preferable to str5, or do you disagree?

If you hit you are twice as likely to achieve a damage result, or do you disagree?

Your Bible references are utterly unrelated to this discussion.

Im not saying the multilaser is "good". I'm saying that its better than a HB. Why? Because it has 1 MORE STRENGTH. FOR FREE. AP 4-6 is obsolete, as I said. Why? Because there is such a thing as COVER SAVES. The only time the ap4 will be better is against GEQ's in the open, and how often do you see that happen? If your opponents regularly line up their guardians/fire warriors/guardsmen in front of your HB chimeras then guess what, you're playing against DUMBASSES.

Tell me, how is obsolete AP value better than +1 str? And no Bible references this time please.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Str6 is preferable to str5, or do you disagree?

If you hit you are twice as likely to achieve a damage result, or do you disagree?

Your Bible references are utterly unrelated to this discussion.

Im not saying the multilaser is "good". I'm saying that its better than a HB. Why? Because it has 1 MORE STRENGTH. FOR FREE. AP 4-6 is obsolete, as I said. Why? Because there is such a thing as COVER SAVES. The only time the ap4 will be better is against GEQ's in the open, and how often do you see that happen? If your opponents regularly line up their guardians/fire warriors/guardsmen in front of your HB chimeras then guess what, you're playing against DUMBASSES.

Tell me, how is obsolete AP value better than +1 str? And no Bible references this time please.

**gendoikari87**

Guys, Stop. Multi-lasers and heavy bolters both have their advantages, neither is "better" than the other, the same can be said for a lot of stuff.

**Polonius**

Hey look, it's another thread where a guy who hasn't won anything notable tells us all how we're wrong.

There is no sense in arguing with him. He clearly has his mind made up.

Sure, you could mention that nobody buys the chimera for the guns, so taking a mediocre weapon is still a plus.

Or that a multilaser does similar damage to AV 10 as a BS3 melta gun outside of 6"(the melta gets +1 to all damage results). Or infinitely more than any melta gun outside of 12".

You could mention that the preferred target of the Heavy Bolter (T3 models with a 4+ save) are both uncommon and generally not very threatening, and that valuing being good against them is generally a waste.

You could also simply demand from him and explanation as to why he feels he can objectively call something "terrible." Units, weapons, and upgrades in 40k are only good or bad in relationship to each other. You don't need to prove, or even think, that multi-lasers are good. They're not. It's not their job to be awesome. It's their job to provide decent fire support against a wide range of targets. Considering it basically comes free with a bowl of soup, it's a good deal.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:Guys, Stop. Multi-lasers and heavy bolters both have their advantages, neither is "better" than the other, the same can be said for a lot of stuff.

No. Multilasers are better 95% of the time. I can prove this on an etch a sketch.

**Jabbdo**

Str6 is preferable to str5, or do you disagree?

If you hit you are twice as likely to achieve a damage result, or do you disagree?

Your Bible references are utterly unrelated to this discussion.

Im not saying the multilaser is "good". I'm saying that its better than a HB. Why? Because it has 1 MORE STRENGTH. FOR FREE. AP 4-6 is obsolete, as I said. Why? Because there is such a thing as COVER SAVES. The only time the ap4 will be better is against GEQ's in the open, and how often do you see that happen? If your opponents regularly line up their guardians/fire warriors/guardsmen in front of your HB chimeras then guess what, you're playing against DUMBASSES.

Tell me, how is obsolete AP value better than +1 str? And no Bible references this time please.