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Tzerald, chariot, breath of chaos 95

Tzerald, chariot, breath of chaos 95

Tzerald, chariot, breath of chaos 95

3 flamers 105

3 flamers 105

3 flamers 105

5 Plaguebearers 75

5 Plaguebearers 75

10 Bloodletters 160

9 Bloodletters 144

3 screamers 48

3 screamers 48

Daemon prince, mark of slaneesh, sopofiric musk, aura, pavane, iron hide 175

Daemon prince, mark of slaneesh, sopofiric musk, aura, pavane, iron hide 175

= 1500

Lots of fast moving targets. Pavane+breath is fun, and pavane provides general lulz. Maybe a little light on antitank. Thoughts? =)

Your troops wont last 2 turns due to numbers.

Also, due to having to split and drop in they will get swarmed as soon as they land, or shot to death.

I'd think about bulking troop units up a but more and drop a unit of flamers.

While they are decent enough, you dont really have alot else worth shooting instead of them, so they will draw fire from everyone.

Also, if your just taking the heralb for a multi-wound flamer, why not take more flamers instead?
I rather have a few flames each turn than 1 a turn that lasts a bit longer.


again with unit size, but i'd merge the screamers as they are too small.
If the idea is to split them for 2 vehicles a time, then you will have a hard job even hitting them if they have moved.

Screamers force vehicles to move, which is very annoying for preds etc. and eat any vehicles that are immobilized. If you shoot my flamers I LOL because then everything else is alive, and the flamers are ridiculously easy to kill in CC. Tzeralds are annoying because they are so hard to kill, and are far more survivble than the 3 flamers I could get for 10 more pts than their cost. Plus my elites slots are full, and making flamer squads bigger than 4 or 5 is a waste because as soon as they end up in combat they are dead.

Nobody shoots the PB's, unless they want to let me win. Seriously, my PB's arent doing gak, while everything else is an immediate threat. Sure, people will shoot then in objective missions, but they are ridiculously hard to kill at range, and if you dont weaken my other units during the one turn before they kill you, you die. Simple as that.

How is making a vehicle move a good think for a tank hunting unit that needs to use meltabombs?
Just makes it harder to hit them.

Great, now theres a 50/50 chance a flamer will glance, then you need a 6 to stop a tank.
Thats great and all, but you need to be lucky for 4 to manage it (since only 2 will glance)

Heralds arent hard to kill, you simply pin them in place or use small arms fire in masses.


Sorry, but plagues will get smashed unless there is a real threat on the table (fiends are top priority)
Now, with low toughness and poor saves fiends die quickly.

So, plagues seem a pretty nice target in objective missions.
Why shoot them?
If im going to do that then ill make sure they dont get FNP.
However, i rather assault them (they wont be able to get away from anything with S&P) and finish them quickly.



How will your other units kill anything?
Combat wise you have:

Letters - low numbers, will get shot to death.

Fiends - fast. but might aswell be made from glass.
Even small arms will kill them off quickly.

Princes - nice targets, but too slow to bother me.
If they get close enough ill either just assault with power weps or shoot them to death 1st.



I just find you try having 1 of everything in the list, which means your left with no real dedication towards jobs for units and the numbers are soo small they are no real threat.

.....

You have exactly 1 turn to kill whatever dropped down on turn 1. Depending on the wave itll be either:

1 prince
1Flamer squad
Fiends
1 herald
1PB
1 screamer squad

or

1 prince
1Flamer squad
Letters
2 heralds
1PB
1 screamer squad

You need to kill EVERYTHING in a squad to remove it as a threat. 1 flamer can still do a lot of damage. 2 fiends can kill a squad by themselves. Taking 2 wounds off my herald or prince wont make any difference.

How do you think you are gonna get close enough to assault my PB's? Run through the rest of my army.

Making a predator move is good cos itll be firing only 1 weapon, or none at all.

The idea with the army is that EVERTHING is a threat, and everything is fast. And you usually have 1 turn to kill them before they eat you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

How will your other units kill anything?
Combat wise you have:

Letters - low numbers, will get shot to death.

Fiends - fast. but might aswell be made from glass.
Even small arms will kill them off quickly.

Princes - nice targets, but too slow to bother me.
If they get close enough ill either just assault with power weps or shoot them to death 1st.



I just find you try having 1 of everything in the list, which means your left with no real dedication towards jobs for units and the numbers are soo small they are no real threat.

Heralds wont do anthing? Flamers wont do anything?

The first time they fire, I think your perception of them will change

So, you have enough numbers here to go head to head in assault with orks? that i doubt very much.

You seem to forget that something does not have to be killed to stop being a threat.

Plagues can be ignored unless they are near an objective.
Screamers can be ignored aswell.


So, wave 1:

prince is slow, so just out move him, or shoot him.
Fiends will more than likely soak up the most, due to being the biggest threat.
The herald is a minor annoyance at best.
throw anything at him (including gretchin) and it will do the job.
Flamers are again a priority, but they have a basic T with a basic save, nothing too hard to kill, even more so with only 4 in a unit.


Wave 2:

Same applies to previous listing.
Letters will get laughed at by most ork players as they will just get swarmed (16 a piece isnt cheap for something with a poor save)
Only time they really do much is against armoured opponants. (marines etc)


Now, that was just the basics, your missing 2 big points here.


1: Units scatter, and with this much DS'ing, a few will do without fail.
Now, this could land you on a unit, terrain, or too far away for an assault next turn (or it will, once i move away from them 6")

2: randomness: there is no real plan with daemons that lasts any length of time, mainly due to soo much luck involved in getting even a simple plan to work out without faults.



So, you will have half an army in small units scattered over a table.
That hardly seems worrying (for me anyway, not sure about how you feel)

Now, you have another half, but you dont know when each unit will turn up or where.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: I have used flammers funnily enough, and i often take a nurgle prince with breath.
I know what damage they do, but i also know thier limits and how easy to kill they are.
A vindicator shot will leave them with ++ saves and will wound 5/6 of the time.

That is 145 points, and has more use than just that.
Now, think of that landing on fiends.
Multiple hits, S10.
It will strip wounds off well enough on its own, or i could just blast your plagues with it.

6 in a unit and 6 gets hit.
5 wounded
1.5 saves made
no FNP

Jack may very well be right about the orks. But then, I don't know of terribly many daemon lists that can handle a decent number of boyz without a lot of luck or an excellent battle plan and a somewhat incompetent opponent. ("Soulgrinders," people say. I don't honestly believe that would be enough if this number of Breaths isn't. Though, admittedly, I've never tried them.)

I'd guess that your best bet with this list, against orks, would be to somehow manage to funnel the orks so that you can take on one or two units of boyz at a time, and repeatedly pavane and breath them, and then charge with fiends to finish them. Not easy, and somewhat dependent on terrain and the orks not having great long-ranged shooting capability... but really, what are the other options? Horrors help, but not enough. (An 18" shooting range is really, really annoying when your opponent can be fleet for a round, and even if you have as many horrors shooting as boyz charging, you probably won't kill them all.) More fiends instead of flamers might help, but fiends will probably have problems against a large enough mob of boyz, too. *shrug* at this point, I'm doing theoryhammer. Jack, do you have a suggestion for a daemon list that could take on a boyz-heavy ork list, but still has a chance against other armies?

A green tide ork list takes a lot of space. Most likely spread across the table, maybe even more because of the threat of template weapons. Daemons can deepstrike on one flank, pounce on the mob their, and pavane the others away. That's your best shot.

If you are going to ignore the screamers shooting wise you'll have to keep moving with your tanks to stop them from doing something. Say you have an auto-las pred. If you move six inches you get to fire one weapon and three screamers will most likely still penetrate you. If you move twelve inches, that screamer squad has made that predator useless. That is the idea behind screamers.

The real problem I see with this list is fully meched MSU armies. There is not enough anti-tank, the pavanes won't do anything and your opponent can afford to lose units, but you can't.

You have to remember that those breaths are moving 12'' a turn. They can afford to scatter off. The pavane's range is enough that the daemon princes can afford to scatter aswell.

This suffers from all the problems that any daemon list would, but IMO this list does a good job of minimizing the impact of those problems.

Jack, do you have a suggestion for a daemon list that could take on a boyz-heavy ork list, but still has a chance against other armies?

this is 1 thing daemons really do struggle with, and ive seen countless ardboyz and adepticon reports where a great daemon player recieved a loss due to being swamped by targets.

Generally the fatecrusher build will do well against most opponants (kairos supporting multiple units of crushers)
However, against a tide of green the re-rolls dont usually help them out enough to make a real dent, but do the job to some extent.
120 attacks from boyz on the charge, 60 hits, 30 wounds, 10 go through, then 3 goes through the re-roll.

8 Crushers attack back:
16 attacks, 11 hits, 8 dead boyz.

Granted you won by 5 wounds, but they are still fearless (granted they will then lose models to this, but still not enough)

this case however was with the boyz getting the charge, it wont be a drastic change, but it will make a difference if crushers hit 1st.

So, if you kit them out (champ, instrument, normals) you can play with wound allocation to prevent losing one, however, its the fearless that orks have which locks you in place.


so, fatecrusher survives and does some damage, but not enough to prevent being locked in combat for ages.
also, in smaller games the points cost is too much to work with.


Now, another list would be slaanesh multi-attacks, however, it is very fragile, so small arms fire will destroy them easily.

20 daemonettes get 80 attacks on the charge.
40 hits.
16 or so wounds (3 ignore saves)
15 saves to be taken with around 2.5 made.
thats around 16 dead boyz, so not all that bad actually.
However, ive been tinkering with the idea of adding in skarbrand to games simply with a pure slaanesh army.

So, that 40 hits becomes 60 hits.
16 wounds with 3 ignoring saves becomes 24, with 4 ignoring saves.
24 saves to be taken with 4 saved leaves 24 dead boyz in total, with 6 left to attack back.

So, by using larger units or going into multiple assaults, slaanesh daemons with skar can really do damage to ork units.

fiends however will struggle due to low numbers and higher points per attack (even if they do have higher strength)

So, fiends against boyz (numbers in brackets are with skarbrand)

6 fiends

Attacks - 36 (36)
Hits - 18 (27)
wounds - 12, 2 of which rend (18, 3 of which rend)
Dead boyz - 10.5 (15.5)

As you can see, it isnt really the best here as there are enough boyz left to make a difference.



Other options: While breath is great against them, it means getting within assault range of them.
Only thing you want that close is a daemon prince, and thats against a smaller unit (15-20 at the most)
Also, with the mark of nurgle the prince isnt too bad.

gunline: You could however take 3 units of horrors and 3 units of nettes.
Drop them as far back as you can (while keeping away from the edge)

horrors at the front, nettes behind them. (units of 20 each work, but only in 2-2.5k games)
Simply fire once they are close (180 shots from the horrors) which will do enough damage to make you smile.
They boyz wont be in charge range unless they get a 6 on the waaagh!
You can then safely move the horrors back and fire again, then let the nettes assault the thinned down units.

While good against orks, this will suffer on anything with power armour, or anything with tanks.
So it pretty much only works on green tide to nid swarms.


So, there isnt really anything overly effective against both hordes and general armies.
This is one of the faults of daemons that i have to suffer alot



quick last note: Before someone says grinders work on everything, it is true.
Anti-tank is great, and templates are even better.
They are however, your only armour, meaning every las and melt is comming thier way and theres pretty much feth all you can do about it (due to size and finding cover)

so they tend to last around 1.5 turns if your playing a competative army.
In firnedly games they do however last a bit longer.




Haize - 3 meltabomb attacks isnt alot when you hit on a 6.
Meaning you get a single hit with them every 2 turns.
You then need to actually pen or glance the tank (granted, unless you roll snakes it wont pen, but against something like a raider its different)
You then need a 4 to pin them down and finish them, or a 5+ to finish them for good.
so no, 3 wont make a big difference to anything.
and against something like a lith, they do nothing.

Now, against a dread its even harder as it attacks back, and alot harder than you do.
Its also AV13 (since its allways walkers front AV)

Also, its thier own fault for taking an auto-las pred against daemons.
I rather go with basic build (auto + HB's) as it will do a much better job. (unless of course your going rifleman build for any armour the daemons may take lol)


Also haize, keep in mind pavane is only 18" range, and you must roll to hit 1st.
So with 2 pavanes a turn, 1 will work.
That doesent help if more than 1 of your units scatters (which it will)
Now, the model using pavane needs to drop in range to use it, if it doesent, then it has failed, if it has, its then in assault range of said unit next turn, or by another unit since your soo close.

Also, whats to stop flamers scattering too far, or that pavane not moving them close enough?
If either fail, your just sat there waiting to be killed.


Daemons are glass dice-hammers.
they can hit hard, but to do so every roll needs to be going your way, and your opponant would have to not know what your units can do.
also, daemons dont really forgive for even a small mistake, now, you can be the best player in the world, but you will still make a mistake with daemons as they are too random.

Even the loss of a single unit or it being out of range ruins your plan, then leaves you open to be assaulted.

Daemons are just one of those armies that either everything goes thier way and you get a massacre, or everything goes to gak and you get massacred.

@ Jack

You clearly dont understand how this army works.

You also clearly didnt listen to what Haizelhoff said. If the pred move over 6" ITS NOT FIRING=useless. Stop with the "your meltabombs hit on 6's lol they suck" fetish.

1 pavane will hit per turn? Daemons princes ae bs3 now? Did a new FAQ come out?

You suggesting daemonettes and horrors in squads of 20... WTF?? You say my list is fragile and suggest those units? Really?

You take horrors in 5 to get a "cheap" bolt. Their other shooting is balls.

You dont take daemonettes. They suck balls.

And then you suggest fatecrusher as a solution to my list. WOW.

I just have to ask this... Do you play daemons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edited the list. Check the original post.

Since your asking some, i might ask some too.


Have you even seen a daemon army being used before? let alone used one yourself.
Yes, i do play daemons, and i am generally against orks, nids or BA, so no really basic army.


Screamers - so they are chasing a tank.
Granted, it cant shoot, but they cant lock it in combat, meaning they can be made a target for shooting.
If your such a dick you think that it keeps it tied up all game then you may aswell quit the hobby.
You simply max out on movement to draw them back (and stop them doing damage) and then shoot them with another unit.
Which then leaved the pred free to fire back.
Now, why is this a pred? if its a land raider then it will be using PotMS to fire at you, no matter how far it moves.

Also, keep in mind you cannot assault on the turn you land, so whats to stop the screamers being shot at in the 1st place?




Pavane: Who said it was a daemons prince using it?
That was never mentioned.
A herald is however BS3.
Now, with a prince you will hit both time with ease, but how does that help you when your having to draw in mass targets?
D6" isnt much, so doing this on the turn you drop means the margin for error due to scatters or the possibility of a miss, or a low roll means it has failed to do anything.
Thats far too many if's to rely on as a solid plan.


20 units: Im sorry, but does 60 shots not do anything?
I have allways assumed its enough firepower to do damage to anything without an AV.
So your going to dick around with units of 5?
Now thats a laugh.
So, you make a small unit, give them an expensive upgrade and they are prone to being killed quickly due to low numbers.
In a KP game thats suicide.
In an objective game thats suicide.

Nettes might aswell be made of glass, so yes, large units are more than worth it.
Simply to:
A: withstand damage on the drop turn (they should be in cover anyway)
B: make sure whatever you assault either dies, or if left with little to attack back.
So what, you think taking these in small units is a good thing too? lol


Im sorry, dont you like cookie cutter lists?
Fatecrusher allways has and allways will be one of the strongest builds for daemons (until they hit update time)
I take it your not a daemon player though, hence why you doubt the list. (i guess your hurried list of randomness is a sure tournie winner compared to it)





Edited list: Getting alot better since you have more in the way of numbers now, however, the plagues are still on the low side.
T5 and FNP is great until a template hits them, they get assaulted, or they just get shot throughout the turns.

However, i guess you dont need or want advice, since you seem to ignore any C&C, then pretty much think your list is without flaw.


quick bit of homework for you.
Check tournament listings in recent events at adepticon, ard boyz etc.
Check out the players using daemons, then hunt down the lists they used.
You will find a pattern in said lists.
Fatecrusher builds will be very high in numbers, and further up the rankings.

So, if you are a daemon player, any chance of some piccies of your army?

Any shooting army will be drooling over small troop squads.

You know what happens when my 3 large pie plate 10str hits does on small squads of daemons?



Massacre

Ok, so you obviously didnt read the list, as nowhere are there any slaneesh heralds and the daemon princes are quite clearly written:

"Daemon prince, mark of slaneesh, sopofiric musk, aura, PAVANE, iron hide 175 "

Lets leave the screamer issue, eh? Its really not too important here. Ive stated the reasons for including them.

No, I dont think daemonettes are worth it at all as they are way too expensive for what they do.Take bloodletters for 2 points more.

I said take horrors in units of 5 IF YOU MUST, max at units of 10, never 20, I wouldnt take them at all.

I must ask, how are you assaulting my PB's? And do you really want to use shooting on them?

Yes, the list struggles against mech. So does fatecrusher.

I know fatecrusher is good. I also dont want to go and copy it like an unimaginative dumbass.

Your comments havent been very helpful, mainly just flaming and saying how everything in my army will die immediately.

*sigh*

I guess Ill actually have to write up a detailed tactica on how this army works, as you might not be able to see it from the list.

And sure, Ill post up up pics of the army tomorrow. Its unpainted right now though. What do you want me to hold up in the background? I'm asking this because I'm pretty sure youll just claim the pics I put up were found on the internet




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flyinmiata1 wrote:Any shooting army will be drooling over small troop squads.

You know what happens when my 3 large pie plate 10str hits does on small squads of daemons?



Massacre

Actually, for every 6 hits you wound 5 times, and for every 2 wounds inflicted I take one wound in.

Where are these templates coming from BTW? If its from a vehicle then said vehicle is dead from the screamers.

Screamers won't have a chance to do anything as they are obviously target #1.



FYI - Don't post a list and ask for opinions and then just bash anyone who posts something that defers from your opinion. Because I also see your list as very EASY to massacre. Not just win....massacre

Flyinmiata1 wrote:Screamers won't have a chance to do anything as they are obviously target #1.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. I've had a 128 point squad of screamers take the heat of an entire opposing army's first turn of firing. Admittedly, they died then... but if they're not your only anti-tank, it can be worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, Jack, I have to say I've never really liked the idea of Fatecrusher, even though I understand it's done well in tournaments. I'm sure that, when it works, it works very well. But it would seem to rely too much on good DS rolls and slow opponents.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:Screamers won't have a chance to do anything as they are obviously target #1.



FYI - Don't post a list and ask for opinions and then just bash anyone who posts something that defers from your opinion. Because I also see your list as very EASY to massacre. Not just win....massacre

And about bashing people who give advice... your advice has been restricted to saying that my troops will die to your pie plates.

Really? You would shoot the screamers first out of everything else in my army?

What army do you play BTW? Mind posting up a list with which you would EASILY massacre this list? Although you will probably post up a full mech list now that you know what you're facing

Coming in a bit late but ill give opinion on current list.

First thing is, what are your waves? My guess is daemon princes and anything with a template comes in first? What happens if you dont get your preferred wave, does this list work then?

When playing a daemon army target priority is always key. Vs this list its pretty cut and dry. Flamers and screamers go first. They are the biggest threats and fairly easy to kill. At the same time all AP3 or lower shots go at the daemon princes. With only a 5++ at T5 they will die quickly to plasma and ranged anti-tank. I base my opinions of my chaos marines fighting this army and my ranged fire power would be a large problem. Versus a true shooting army (such as gunline IG) you will have a pretty rough time. Versus an all CC army, (such as most other chaos daemon armies) you will have the advantage with a lot of templates. However, what if the pavanes roll crappy or daemon princes dont make it in? Does the mass template effects still work?

Your troops would be ignored when we play. Plaguebearers cant fight well and are mainly for objective games. Bloodletters are to slow to be guaranteed the charge. Simply out maneuver then and charge them at my convenience. Consider this, horrors are not a great troop choice however they bring what is needed. They are the only troop that can sit on an objective and still kill stuff. A 5 man squad with bolt can still take down a dread or light up an ork squad.

I guess my biggest problem is that all of your elites and fast attack can be easily killed with a round of bolter fire. Or a rapid fire of lasguns.

I split the waves up equally, except 2 heralds and 1 flamer squad go in one wave and 1 herald and 2 flamer squads in the other. Everthing else splits up equally, so it doesnt matter too much qwhich wave shows up. Ill drop the breath models first, around 4-6" from the squad at the end of your flank, but spread out a bit so you cant multiple combat them. (this is assuming an infantry squad though, mech is much more iffy) screamers drop somewhere where they can threaten charges on vehicles next turn. Bloodletters drop down right behind the breath troops. This way, if you charge my flamers or herald (as CC is the safest place to be against them) the my letters will come and eat you next turn. Prince drops somewhere around the breath troops too, he can afford to scatter a bit as pavane has an 18" range. PB's drop on an obj. or in a corner somewhere if it's KP. As more units arrive theyll drop down where their partner units are and perform the same roles really, and when the second prince shows up I can start pavane+breathing 2 squads per turn.

Sure, the princes will probably die, but they arent really doing much themselves, they're just making the breath troops far more effective. If you kill the breath troops, then the prince can pavane you into the letters. There's a lot of targets, and all of them can do a lot of damage, so the opponent has to be really careful with target priority.

Yes, the list struggles against mech. So does fatecrusher.

Ok, lets leave the screamers for now.

How does fatecrusher struggle against mech?
Most transports are AV 10 - 11.
FC puts a crusher up to S6, and 1 in each unit will have rending ontop of that.
Also, a herald will be S7 on the charge with rending.

Now, thats not to mention kairos, who can fire 3 times a turn at different targets with a whole host of different weapons.

Mech is only a real problem to fatecrusher when said mech is BA and they are going into dedicated raiders, which really does cause problems for anyone but tau. (unless of course you go las heavy guard)

No, I dont think daemonettes are worth it at all as they are way too expensive for what they do.Take bloodletters for 2 points more.

I said take horrors in units of 5 IF YOU MUST, max at units of 10, never 20, I wouldnt take them at all.

So why take small units of fragile troops?
The general idea of said troops is to swarm units and finish them in 1 turn, be it with combat or shooting.

yes, letters are 2 points more, but against horde armies nettes come out on top of letters with ease every single time.
They also dont have to rely on getting the charge off to gain FC and strike 1st.
Nettes also have higher movement due to fleet, so mobility isnt an issue for them.
Oh, and they can assault into cover without an issue too, something else letters lack.

Cookiecutter list: Ok, you have my respect on this one as i too hate these lists.
Easy enough to follow a template, but if you dislike the list then your stuck with it.

Plagues: I play BA, so getting to them isnt any issue at any point of the game.
Most of my troops have a transport, or have packs so will use DoA to drop next to them (vanguard will be able to use DoA and HI to drop down and assault in the same turn)


Pic wise: Just any backround that makes it possible to see them
From what your posting list wise the army will stand out enough to know its yours.
Also, painted and unpainted makes no real difference, im forever adding to armies and leaving myself with grey and silver blobs.


1 thing your army does really lack though is the ability to pop high end armour, so BA will really pose a threat, and GK's will live up to thier nature (no ++ saves most of the time, plenty of AV14)
However, this has allways been thier main problem.
Screamers are good, but raiders just move full every time and use PotMS to fire at them.
Also, dreads will pose a threat to you as they dont have to move to be hard to hit.
They can also move and fire anything they want.

What may be worth a go is trying to add in a thirster with might.
Granted it will draw fire, but S9 on the charge with 2D6 pen means it can get the job done well enough against both dreads and AV14.
With the wings it is also mobile enough to get about, and its decent T and good saves will keep him alive long enough to do his job.

Pavane + breath wise: keep in mind you only have 2 units to pavane with and 3 flamer units.
So 1 will be setting its self up each time (Tzeralds dont matter as they move well enough on thier own)

It may be worth going with a GD again here, you could get away with a KoS with pavane and might, this way it can tank hunt and use pavane to set up units.

Could even add in the masque if you really want it done well.
3 pavanes a turn really does make a difference, and should make sure your set up each turn.
This would also mean you dont need to keep the princes soo close, and could be dropped elsewhere to work away at units.

Still though, by selecting units to support others (such as the princes with flamers) it uses alot of points, so your numbers will be low.
While not the end of the world, it does mean you need to be a bit more careful how you play it.

I would also find a place for an icon or 2 in the army.
This way you can remove the risk of a scatter and get them where they are needed (give one to a unit that will be on each flank)

@ Jack
I'm pretty sure you are completely ignoring half of what everyone is trying to say.

To begin with Crushers do suck against Mech. You have to get into contact before you can do anything and even then you are most likely hitting on 6s or 4s of which you need to penetrate after that. Fate crusher doesn't just struggle against LR spam it struggles against 1 LR. There I've said my little bit and I'm going to go now.

The picture, as promised. Couldnt find my digital camera so had to use my webcam so the quiality is pretty bad. You should still be able to make out the letters, seeker mounts (which I use as fiends), tzerald conversions, and flamers (which I just made out of green stuff). My balrog skarbrand is there too. The ogre torsoed cold one headed tthings in the bottom right corner are my daemon princes.

Play mech guard, mech orks, and grey knights. Only my grey knights would have issues taking on your list.

I run 2 LR + HB sponsons, 2 medusas, 5 chimeras, marbo, 13 meltas, 3 flamers, 5 plasma @ 1500pts = field day.

2/3 games are about "troops" and you are running extremely fragile squads. Beef them up to make them a pain in the ass to fully take out.

Flamers are just a 1 shot unit and you better pray you don't scatter. Run 1 squad only. 300pts for 1 shot units is bad bad bad.

Your princes are good.

Chariots not a huge fan of.

Troop sizes are WAY too small. Bloodletters will never see combat, and 5 plagues are not hard to wipe out in 1 rd.

As I have said, you need to really put a lot of effort into killing my PB's at range. If you do that, youre shooting the rest of my army with less stuff, and if you dont weaken them, they will kill you.

read my earlier post on how the list works, as you dont quite seem to understand.

All my tanks can move 6" and still fire what they need to fire to slaughter any unit I choose of yours (as long as I don't scatter :p). You won't get near my stationary russes with my chimeras acting as a barrier. They will light up and kill any unit I chose every round as that's what they do.

Tank movement

6" Medusa cannon still fires
6" multi-laser or heavy flamer still fires along with 3 meltas, plasma, shotgun from inside
6" Battlecannon still fires if I actually need to move them, which won't happen

Marbo is slowed against you but he's always in my lists.




BUT I'm not trying to say that "my" list will decimate you (though I would drool at the opportunity). I am trying to simply tell you that 2/3 of the games you play you will be destroyed by any competent player with your small troops squads. What good are objective holders when in 2 turns all your troops are gone? The only time I ever see flamers do much good are against my PAGKs. And how often do you play an army w/ 25pt basic troop models that rely solely on them? Or simply just a list w/o troop transport?

I run 2 LR + HB sponsons, 2 medusas,

Jabbdo, i hate to say it mate, but i think thats more than enough to kill a few plagues + other things in the 1st turn.

not taking into account the sheer volume of shooting guard can mass.

another thing, throw a quick topic up on dakka with a poll.
Ask what unit size people use for plagues (5,7,10,15,20 all being options)
and you will see my point.
While they are very good at shrugging off fire, it just means they will be ignored until later in the game.
Meaning more fire power will be hitting the rest of your army each turn.

Also, tanks for the piccies
Do want a better pic of the princes and skarbrand at some point
Ill have mine uploaded tomorrow (need the daylight for half decent pics)


but yea, in all terms you need a more solid base of troops.
You just dont have enough to withstand massed fire most armies can bring to the table.

I usually run a 5 man unit of plaguebearers and they work wonders. You'd be surprised how much a T 5 gone to ground model with feel no pain can take. The only time they really die is when you opponent concentrates on them in which case he's letting your fiends rip apart your tanks next turn.

Whats say we just agree to disagree on this one Jack? Its tiring having to camp this post for replies all the time

Fair enough, ill agree on this one