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All right, so maybe it's been done before. I am going to try something a little different though. I know I personally cringe a bit, internally, when I see someone has come up with rules for a primarch, because I know that when I open the thread, it's going to make a wraithlord look like a sissy girl and have eleventy seven attacks, and a rerollable twice 2+ invul save and...
nevermind. Got to rambling a bit there. Without much further ado, here's what I got


First off, the baseline stats and general rules for primarchs

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
7 6 5 5 5 6 5 10 2+/4++

"Whaaat?" I imagine echoing from a thousand thousand throats. "What is this, nonsense?" Well, this is how I see primarchs, and let me tell you why. I don't think they should have the stats to be a one man army, because they weren't meant to be. They are paragons, exemplars of what (admittedly altered) humanity could strive to be. Besides, lets face it, most of the Primarchs died or changed beyond all recognition at only a few hundred years. Dante is over eleven hundred if I recall, Bjorn is ten thousand years old, and Eldar autarchs have got to be somewhere in between, not to mention the Phoenix Lords. So I feel that these are good stats. I've always been of the opinion that anything not a monstrous creature should be limited to Toughness Five, simply due to the constraints of logic (Goddamn you Mephiston, I hate your stupid FACE). And anyways, keep in mind that these are basic stats, and some of the primarchs will have slightly altered ones. Anyways, on to the rules

Primarchs may only be used in Apocalypse games.

Heroic Aura - The Primarchs are generals and demigods, inspiring their followers with a vigor impossible to believe, and terrifying foes with their sheer force of personality.
Units within the radius of Heroic Aura become Fearless. The Radius is 12". Any enemy unit that attempts to assault the primarch or his unit must pass a LD test, or they cannot assault that turn.

A Destiny Great and Terrible - The Primarchs are mighty warriors, destined for wondrous deeds and fell ends.
Shooting attacks that would cause Instant Death to the Primarch, instead inflict a single wound. If the primarch loses his last wound in an assault, the unit inflicting that wound is also removed. If the unit was more than a single model, the primarch's unit also suffers d6 wounds. This rule is ignored by other primarch models, C'tan, Greater Daemons (to include Avatars) and Super Heavy Vehicles entirely.

Genetic Perfection - Primarchs are the pinnacles of the Emperor's greatest experiments. Mortal dangers are vague irritants to them. The primarchs automatically pass any Initiative, Strength, or Toughness test rolled by or against them.

Legion Commander - The Primarchs fight at the fore of the Great Crusade, using their natural tactical genius to overcome the enemies of man.
D3 units may recieve one of the following.
Infiltrate Special Rule
Scouts Special Rule
Be redeployed directly before the first turn, after all units to include infiltrators are deployed. The unit must be redeployed legally, following normal rules for it's deployment.
Additionally, each turn the primarch may bestow one of the following special rules on a unit within his Aura - Counterattack, Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, or Tank Hunters.

Fulcrum of Fate - Some primarchs possessed abilities beyond the mortal ken, others were simply lucky, skilled, or stronger than they appeared.
Each game turn, a primarch may reroll D3 dice.

Each Primarch must be accompanied by a bodyguard unit -
Say 2-6 models, all must be equipped the same, unless taking a weapon or wargear choice that is 0-1.
Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Sv
5 4 4 4 1 4 3 10 2+
bolt pistol, cc weapon, bolter
may replace bolt pistol with plasma pistol, may replace cc weapon with power weapon, relic blade, power fist, or lightning claws. May replace bolter with combi weapon
may have Jump Pack or Bike, if Primarch is so equipped.

or terminator armor with combi bolter and power weapon
may replace combi bolter with a storm bolter, combi weapon, 0-1 Heavy Flamer, 0-1 Reaper Autocannon, or stormshield; and may replace power weapon with power fist, chainfist, relic blade, or thunder hammer

0-1 Bodyguard may bear the Primarch's Banner, which increases his Aura to 18" while it remains in play

Allright, there is the baseline I have for primarchs to start out with. The only thing I am not sure of is S/T of five. In a post - Mephiston (seriously, I HATE you) world, it might be better to move them to six, even though I don't like it. I hope you all see what I am getting at here; I want the Primarchs to be skillful and cool, have synergy with their armies, not just be a Win button or a blunt hammer. Yes, a primarch should be able to beat a wraithlord or a blood thirster, but it shouldn't be easy (Sanguinius rolled a lot of sixes). In addition to the above, I figure each Primarch should have a "fluff" rule or two, unque to them. Some of them would have altered stats, and their own wargear(maybe even options..) While I was at work I came up with five rather broad categories to group them into, along the lines in which their special rules would fall. Keep in mind these are my opinions, and thus absolutely right (grin)

Strategists - these are the guys who I feel are defined by their tactical, strategic, and even logistical brilliance. While all of the primarchs are good, these are the real stand outs.
Horus, Dorn, Gulliman (douche), Corax, Fulgrim
their rules would be along the buff your troops/ give them more options/ add to steal initiative rolls, etc

Specialists - these guys took one aspect of war, and became the absolute best
Perturabo, Khan, Kurze, Mortarion
their rules would enhance their style of warfare

Combatants - these are the insane badasses,
Russ, Angron
their rules would be geared toward making them killing machines and/or helping their troops become the same

Generalists - these guys are the jack of most trades, masters of some
El Johnson, Ferrus Manus, Vulkan, Sanguinius, Lorgar
their rules would be a mix. some watered down versions of the others along with ones to suit their personalities and styles

Singular - these two don't really fit in with the others, their style is pretty much their own
Alpharius, Magnus
their rules would have to be pretty out there and off the wall ( ideas I have specifically for Alpharius is I Am Alpharius - at any point during the game, unless he is in an assault, you may remove any Alpha Legion Marine, and place Alpharius where the model was; and I Am Omegon - at the beginning of any phase, remove any Alpha Legion marine, and Alpharius, replace the marine with Omegon, who is identical to Alpharius.)

Allright, that's what I've got. Feel free to post ideas you have for specific rules and/or wargear for the primarchs, loud and violent disagreements, support, or whatever.

Oddly enough doesn't look to bad... you might want to decrease the aura range a tad, maybe to 18" instead of 24".

Well, it's only 24" with LOS, and fearless is a drawback almost as often as a benefit

Yeah but if you have a primarch you're probably gonna be charging people and so have a decent amount of decent CC units and with SM of any type fearless becomes less of a drawback.

These are remarkably well thought out. I agree with maybe making them S6 T5.

Oh and I'd change "A Destiny Great and Terrible" to make them immune to ID from any source (and a caveat for "ID" that isn't ID, e.g. direswords, DH Force Weapons, etc).

As far as unique rules, remember they all have unique wargear as well, and those can have unique rules as well. (Ex. Mortarion has the Lantern, Angron has Gorefather & Gorechild, etc)

EDIT:
Just thought of an idea for Angron:

The Red Angel: fluff... Angron has Furious Charge, but instead gains +2S and +2I instead of the normal bonuses, and gains +2A for charging instead of +1. Also, the nearest allied unit in LOS has the Rage special rule as long as they are the nearest allied unit in LOS.

Gorefather & Gorechild: These weapons both count as power weapons, and cause Angron to hit on a 2+ against any unit with majority WS4 or less.

If I said they were only for apocalypse, would that change your mind? Cause I forgot to mention that.

Bromsy wrote:If I said they were only for apocalypse, would that change your mind? Cause I forgot to mention that.

It's the little detais like that which can change an entire unit
Yeah that would make me change my mind.

And with the Destiny thing, I specifically tried to avoid the Eternal Warrior spam that seems to be on everyone now adays. I figured losing the unit that killed them would be enough, and make it a little more characterfull

I actually liked that rule a lot.

Bromsy wrote:Goddamn you Mephiston, I hate your stupid FACE)

Agreed!

Bromsy wrote:Primarchs cannot lose their last wound to shooting attacks... "not just be a Win button"

Seems like an i win button against Tau...

Bromsy wrote:Each game turn, a primarch may reroll 3 dice.

I'd make it D3... 3 just seems a bit mean. You'd have to commit an aweful lot of firepower to know them to 1 wound in the first place then coup de gras in assault, never mind if they actually re-roll that 2+/4++

Bromsy wrote:oh, and Independent Character

I'd leave that bit out, or at least let him always be targetted from shooting attacks. The enemy will know who/what he is, if not they will assume the glowing armoured marine with a halo around his head is proberly very important and should be taken out ASAP especially since the marines are following him around like lost puppies and hes giving orders left right and centre. Its not like shooting will kill him anyway with the destined rule.

----------

All in all not bad at all, proberly some of the best rules i've seen with stats not being too OP but still pretty nasty.
Although it all depends on the abilites they get i suppose and the price tag!

What do you think about including things like C'tan and any other things of that power level (maybe G Daemons, Avatars) in the exception list for Destiny?

Something Noone has ever done before... rules for the primarchs!!!1

Lots of people have done rules for the Primachs...

If you want really good rules, find the Tempus Fugitives website and download their Heresy Era Ruleset.

The stats in there for the Primarchs are by the far the best, in the fact that they have not only a plethora of rules that all Primarchs get, but also specific things for each.

How about this - Tau get the "WTF we didn't get into space til like 3000 years after the last of these guys died" rule, in which case they can pick out the primarch with shooting

Okay, how about this, lose the IC, but let them each have a bodyguard unit, tough but limited in number, since it seems like they all did anyway (like Tyrant Guard)

D3 on the rerolls seems okay


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm too lazy to download someone else's rules! far easier and more fun to write some myself.

grayspark wrote:

Something Noone has ever done before... rules for the primarchs!!!1

Lots of people have done rules for the Primachs...

If you want really good rules, find the Tempus Fugitives website and download their Heresy Era Ruleset.

The stats in there for the Primarchs are by the far the best, in the fact that they have not only a plethora of rules that all Primarchs get, but also specific things for each.

Read the very first sentence.

I honestly thought the numeral one at the end of three exclamation points rather thoroughly implied that I spoke in jest

Bromsy wrote:How about this - Tau get the "WTF we didn't get into space til like 3000 years after the last of these guys died" rule, in which case they can pick out the primarch with shooting

Okay, how about this, lose the IC, but let them each have a bodyguard unit, tough but limited in number, since it seems like they all did anyway (like Tyrant Guard)

I dispute the fact that all the Primarchs are dead... some are still alive(ish), missing, or just plain deamonised.
The bodyguard seems good, though that would require some more stats to be invented...

Oooo... What is there now in a marine army that wasn't there when the primarchs were with the legions by the way? out of curiosity...

Bromsy wrote:I honestly thought the numeral one at the end of three exclamation points rather thoroughly implied that I spoke in jest

I'll be honest, i thought you were being a but never mind that now

this is good stuff

Lets see, there were no LR variants, Vindicators (well, right at the end) Storm Bolters were prototypes and rare, here is a link for full lists

http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?showtopic=3260

Alpharius (one of them anyway) was specifically killed by a shooting attack. A regular Bolter round, in fact.

So you think... muahaha

make them S and T 6, give them feel no pain and make their armor save 1+ (rolls of one still fail but atleast they don't die to plasma weapons) other then that spot on

I think the base stats are reasonable. Then each primarch can modify his stats depending on what he specializes in, if anything.


You thing you have to consider is: simplify. The trend that GW is going is to simplify things. Some of your special rules are kind of complicated and could be made simpler. Let's examine the special rules:

Bromsy wrote:
Heroic Aura - The Primarchs are generals and demigods, inspiring their followers with a vigor impossible to believe, and terrifying foes with their sheer force of personality.
Units within the radius of Heroic Aura become Fearless. The Radius is 12" w/o LOS, and 24" if the unit can trace LOS to the primarch (the primarch himself, not the unit he is in. Any enemy unit that attempts to assault the primarch or his unit must pass a LD test, or they cannot assault that turn.

Too much. Just make it either 1) 12" or 2) 24" with LOS, not both. I recommend:

- 24" if can trace LOS
- must pass LD in order to assault

Bromsy wrote:
A Destiny Great and Terrible - The Primarchs are mighty warriors, destined for wondrous deeds and fell ends.
Primarchs cannot lose their last wound to shooting attacks. Shooting attacks that would cause Instant Death, instead inflict a single wound. When the primarch loses his last wound, the unit inflicting that wound is also removed. If the unit was more than a single model, the primarch's unit also suffers d6 wounds. This rule is ignored by other primarch models entirely.

The first part is too complicated. The 2nd part is too over-the-top. They need to have a chance to survive. Currently, the primarch cannot be shot to death, and if you assault him, your unit is doomed.

I recommend:

- Eternal Warrior (get rid of the "cannot die by shooting"...he's in a unit and already get to re-roll 3 die each turn)
- if killed in assault, every model in base-to-base must take an initiative test (or roll off against the primarch) or is removed from play. This is like Lukas' statis bomb and at least the opponent has a chance to survive.

Bromsy wrote:
Genetic Perfection - Primarchs are the pinnacles of the Emperor's greatest experiments. Mortal dangers are vague irritants to them. The primarchs automatically pass any characteristic test rolled by or against them.

Does that mean their psychic hoods automatically shut down enemy psychic powers, they always sweep their enemies, win against powers like Mind War, Lukas' statis bomb, etc.? If so, then it is too strong.

Bromsy wrote:
Legion Commander - The Primarchs fight at the fore of the Great Crusade, using their natural tactical genius to overcome the enemies of man.
D3 units may be given the Infiltrate or Scouts special rules before deployment; or after all units are deployed but before the first turn, re-deploy a unit. Additionally, each turn the primarch may bestow one of the following special rules on a unit within his Aura - Counterattack, Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, or Tank Hunters.

Confusing and way too much stuff. Is it D3 units with scout/infiltrate and just 1 unit redeploys? Also, when do the buffs apply and how long? You need more detail.

I recommend:

- D3 units may redeploy.
- At the beginning of the primarch's turn until the beginning of his next turn, he may bestow one of the following special rules on a unit within his Aura....

Bromsy wrote:
Fulcrum of Fate - Some primarchs possessed abilities beyond the mortal ken, others were simply lucky, skilled, or stronger than they appeared.
Each game turn, a primarch may reroll 3 dice.

Ok.



Let's take as an example, post-heresy Angron from the GW (found here).

He's got the daemon rules, daemonic flight and furious charge. How many special rules does he have? Only 2, and none of them over-powering. See how simple GW keeps it?

Bromsy wrote:
Genetic Perfection - Primarchs are the pinnacles of the Emperor's greatest experiments. Mortal dangers are vague irritants to them. The primarchs automatically pass any characteristic test rolled by or against them.



Does that mean their psychic hoods automatically shut down enemy psychic powers, they always sweep their enemies, win against powers like Mind War, Lukas' statis bomb, etc.? If so, then it is too strong.

What he's saying is that they automatically pass Initiative/Strength/Toughness etc. tests.

Such as Jaws of the World Wolf.

I like it.

Well, I know that GW is gradually simplifying things, and while I can see that with rank and file models, I think a primarch (and if you missed it, I did say these were for Apoc only a couple posts down) should have a lot of character, even if that means complexity. The Angron stats are for a daemon primarch reduced to a two dimensional characterture of a being, and pretty boring in general. I wanted to stay away from Eternal Warrior for the following reasons - it is over used, kind of bland, and frankly, not representative of the fact that all of them (basically) died, were corrupted, or disappeared while only a few hundred years old. The way my rule is set up, they are still vulnerable to ID in assault, so a dreadnought or force weapon can still take them out, while the unit being destroyed gives it the feel of an epic melee which has seen the fall of a truly mighty being. At least that's how I meant it to feel. That said, I might remove the part about not being able to lose their last wound to shooting, since I'll most likely be removing the Independent Character and giving them bodyguard units.

If I worded Legion commander badly, I apologize. It made sense to me

D3 units may be given the Infiltrate or Scouts special rules before deployment; or after all units are deployed but before the first turn, re-deploy a unit.

meant roll a D3, and you can give the rule, or redeploy that many units.

And Grayspark covered the Genetic Perfection question perfectly

Oh, forgot, I changed it to D3 rerolls a turn. I ought to update the post


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, rules are updated

too many rules, simple is best, use USR's as much as possible, also are these primarchs pre, during or post heresy?

and Lion el'jonson in general/jack of all trades good at some.. uh huh, he was the BEST strategic commander bar none. this is well esablished canon

Just re read your list of charter types and i really need to sort it out for you lol

Strategists
Lion, Gulliman, Horus Alpharious (you try infiltrating the enemy on the scale he does without useing strategy) Lorgar
Fulgrim

Combat
Sanguinius, Angron (duh, lol) Corax (read first heretic, ravens flight), Ferrus manus (Fulgrim, first heretic etc.)
Russ (duh, lol)

Specialist
Dorn (Defence) peturabo (Siege and defence) Night haunter (terror) KKKKHHHHAAANNNN!!!(Fast attack warfare) Mortarion (infantry.. badass infantry)

Not enough info as of yet
Vulkan

Unique
Magnus

There ya go

I feel like USR's do not do justice to characters like the primarchs.

I must have missed some serious testament to the lion's strategic ability, as well as Lorgar. I differentiated Alpharius not because he didn't rank as one of the best strategists, but because he approached warfare in a way none of his brothers did. The reason I discluded the Lion, Fulgrim and Lorgar from the Strategist column (note that all of the primarchs are among the best military minds the imperium has ever seen, I just wanted to differentiate the ones I felt to be the absolute best) was they all suffered from serious character flaws which could affect them as commanders, namely pride and/or paranoia.
Furthermore I feel that Corax's true strength was definitely as a commander, not a fighter.

Please believe that by including a primarch in a certain category, I was simply stating where I felt their greatest strength lay, not their only strength. Was sanguinius an excellent fighter? Yes; all the primarchs were. It simply did not define him as a character the way that it did Angron or Russ. The Generalist title is by no means a knock, as some of my favorite primarchs are within, it simply means they had no one aspect that dominated their personality.

the thing with sanguinius was that he was second only to Horus as a fighter, this is why i think he should be a combat oriented character, i may be assuming too much here but each primarch will use its own coedex? blood angels, space wolves etc.? obviosly no black rage though lol

As to the Lion, yep you did miss a big thing with him, even in the hersey books the other primarchs have stated he is singular in his strategy, again even horus is not his match, horus had more worlds under his belt due to having longer to do it. and for Lorgar he planned thw WHOLE heresy 50 years before it happened, now thats strategy.

as to the OP, what are your ideas for the other primarchs?
for example Lorgar?

Yeah, they would most likely have to use their own codecies, although ideally I or someone else would make up a crusade legion codex, as there are differences between the crusaders and the modern chapters.

Maybe I expressed it badly before, but when I set Angron and Russ in the combatants role, it was because I feel they are defined by that. If there are hard and fast comparisons of them in fluff as to horus, sanguninius and then everyone else, that is fine, I will revise my opinions; however It's hard to separate the codex fluff from the more neutral stuff - of course sanguinius looks insanely bad ass in the blood angels codex; GW would be doing themselves a disservice if he didn't. I did add that

their rules would be geared toward making them killing machines and/<or helping their troops become the same>

and I am trying to promote synergy between leader and army moreso than I am trying to make anyone a complete badass individually. That said, I feel like Sanguinius and Horus, if they would be "better" fighters than Angron and Russ, they might have slightly higher WS or I, whereas the latter would have more "shred everything within reach" sorts of rules.

As for the Lion, do you remember which book it was that you are referencing? If it is the dark angels ones I might have skipped through them a bit, as I found them lackluster compared to most of the rest.

Generally speaking, these are rules for the primarch pre heresy of any kind, and I feel that secretive plotting on Lorgar's part doesn't merit actual game representable strategic abilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ah, and as far as specific rules for each primarch, ideas to taht effect was one of the main reasons I started this thread. I have only a few very vague ideas, and I would have to reread most if not all of the HH books before I commit to any of them. Lorgar and basically any of the primarchs who haven't had a starring role in a full novel would be a particular problem, as anything we came up with would no doubt be contradicted when a book is published.