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Are you allowed to ask your opponent what army race they will be playing before a match? I was wondering if when people go to sanctioned tournaments, do they have a base army that they are forced to play no matter what, or can they ask what army type their opponent is playing, and then tweak their force accordingly.

IF you are playing a tournament, then you must bring the same exact army list to every game or else you are cheating.

In a friendly, I find it would be unsportsmanlike to ask an opponent what they were playing and then tailor your list to face them.

Agreed with eNvY.

In a friendly game, it's usually considered unsportsmanlike to ask your opponent what army he's using while you're still writing your list. Invariably, you will end up tailoring your list (even subconsciously) to face that specific army. The only time I'd consider this acceptable is when both players agree to do it.

Agreed. You don't reveal pre game what you are playing, otherwise as soon as I hear "Dark Eldar (for which there is EXACTLY ONE BUILD), I pull out my Missle Spam list as opposed to my Assaulty list.

Typical tournaments use one list for the whole tournament. Some vary it a little, but none let you bring a list geared to kill each opponent - you might have two lists, or have 1500pts that stay the same and 500 that you can swap between 2 or 3 choices.

Non tournament is whatever goes locally - pretty much everywhere frowns on 'tailor to this codex', or worse 'tailor to this guy's specific army', and that makes things really brutal on the guy working up his new army who only really has one build. Most places I've been don't really mind if you've got two lists and switch them sometimes, especially if the lists are oddball lists and not maximally optimized, or if you're inexperienced and trying different things. The general idea is that you should be making one list like a torunament and fighting whoever, but get slack sometimes, especially if you're not winning all that much.

Using a different list for specialized games is basically always expected - if you're going to play cityfight, planetfall, or anything else that has lots of special rules, people generally don't expect that you use the same thing you do everywhere else. Some of the variant scenarios/rules use weird force org charts or allow you to buy special abilities, and they don't make sense to try to incorporate to a general purpose list.

We played a tourney recently with 1250 list with three 250 sideboards.

The 1250 cannot vary, but the 250 was chosen after seeing the mission and the opposing army (not their list).

It was good fun, but that is as close as it gets to prior knowledge. (Unless that was the whole point--I have played league games where you know the opponent and the mission prior, then both folks built lists.)

With my gaming group, we usually all declare what army we're using before choosing our list. But, before mission details.

I've always thought this makes the most sense. If you were going to war, you'd know well before you got to the battlefield who the war was against.

Grakmar wrote:With my gaming group, we usually all declare what army we're using before choosing our list. But, before mission details.

I've always thought this makes the most sense. If you were going to war, you'd know well before you got to the battlefield who the war was against.

The book Fifteen Hours disagrees with you.

List building etiquette really varies from place to place. Some gaming groups are fine with, or in fact take it for granted that it's appropriate to tailor your list to your opponent. One of the gaming clubs I used to go to, it was a fairly common sight to see two players tweaking their list pre-game.

It's also not unheard of for groups to encourage list tweaking to combat a specific player's list. 'Beat this list' style challenges are simply another way of playing the game.

For pick-up games in an unfamiliar group, though, I would always recommend having a list ready to go. If that particular group turns out to be one that isn't accustomed to writing up army lists immediately before the game, arranging to play someone and then telling them they'll have to wait for you to write up a list is likely to just see you miss out on a game.

eNvY wrote:IF you are playing a tournament, then you must bring the same exact army list to every game or else you are cheating.

In a friendly, I find it would be unsportsmanlike to ask an opponent what they were playing and then tailor your list to face them.

Why? Right out of the rule on how to start a game, you decide points then the army your playing. It's not a tournment where you have to make list based off not knowing what army you are facing. I agree with what was posted after your post. I bring the army suited for the army i'm facing. And expect my foe to do the same.

That's fine. If thats how you like to play then there is nothing wrong with it. Don't let anyone tell you its wrong.

Personally, I like making a list designed to perform in as many different circumstances as possible, as one would expect out of a tournament list. Tournaments around here are all ran as non-standard missions, so there is alot of stuff that can come up which makes it challenging.

When you are playing against someone you don't know, you might find that they like to play similar to what I am describing, a preset list that they take regardless of opponent. Negotiating the terms of a game will require one of the players to comprimise. Failing that, you will simply have to find another opponent, no hard feelings needed.

You might also find yourself in a situation where everyone around you plays differently. You just have to adapt or find a new place.

For when it mattered (much less now that my group is pretty good about knowing what constitutes extreme tailoring vs friendly all-comers lists), we always had a raffle to see who would play. There were usually enough of us that it was unknown what army you would face (and having Mechdar, Swarm and/or MC nids, Daemons, in addition to typical MEQs meant that the system worked reasonably well as far as providing variety).

Those of us still actively playing have so many lists that we usually just pick them at random. It kinda removes the tailoring element (albeit some lists are geared to fight certain "1-strategy" enemies).

Alvar wrote:

eNvY wrote:IF you are playing a tournament, then you must bring the same exact army list to every game or else you are cheating.

In a friendly, I find it would be unsportsmanlike to ask an opponent what they were playing and then tailor your list to face them.

Why? Right out of the rule on how to start a game, you decide points then the army your playing. It's not a tournment where you have to make list based off not knowing what army you are facing. I agree with what was posted after your post. I bring the army suited for the army i'm facing. And expect my foe to do the same.

There are three issues with this. The first one is that most people don't play that way. Therefore, players actually spend considerable time building an all-comers list and learning how to play it. Lots of people also tend to come to games with lists prepared ahead of time. I myself always print out my Army Builders lists before the games, and oftentimes only bring the models for that list. The last issue is that some people lack the model collection to be able to swap things in and out. Many of the people are face are young teenagers whom have to run foot tactical squads because they haven't saved up enough allowance money for Rhinos. I myself have an extensive collection of Eldar, so I would have an advantage is being able to swap units in out whilst my opponent cannot.

eNvY wrote:

Alvar wrote:

eNvY wrote:IF you are playing a tournament, then you must bring the same exact army list to every game or else you are cheating.

In a friendly, I find it would be unsportsmanlike to ask an opponent what they were playing and then tailor your list to face them.

Why? Right out of the rule on how to start a game, you decide points then the army your playing. It's not a tournment where you have to make list based off not knowing what army you are facing. I agree with what was posted after your post. I bring the army suited for the army i'm facing. And expect my foe to do the same.

There are three issues with this. The first one is that most people don't play that way. Therefore, players actually spend considerable time building an all-comers list and learning how to play it. Lots of people also tend to come to games with lists prepared ahead of time. I myself always print out my Army Builders lists before the games, and oftentimes only bring the models for that list. The last issue is that some people lack the model collection to be able to swap things in and out. Many of the people are face are young teenagers whom have to run foot tactical squads because they haven't saved up enough allowance money for Rhinos. I myself have an extensive collection of Eldar, so I would have an advantage is being able to swap units in out whilst my opponent cannot.

THIS.

Read the title of this discussion. It's an etiquette discussion and NOT a rules-lawyering discussion.

Is it somehow games-legal to have 20 lists with you tailored specifically to defeat different people and use them at the game store to give casual players the worst times? Yes.

Is it good etiquette? Probably not in normal situations where it's not a close friend or someone who also plays that same style of list-tailoring.

It's not all black and white though. It's very different keeping two lists with you and just fielding whichever one you feel like is decent vs. bringing twenty lists with you and choosing after seeing what models your opponent brings with him. The first one might not be particularly rude, I think the second one would be and if I was getting out my stuff and he lays 20 lists down and starts tailoring, I'd just play someone else.

Generally speaking, me and my regular dude write lists in advance of the games (normally all-comers, maybe a few new tricks), and then we'll have a gander at one another's lists.

Of course, your list is written, so there's no margin for re-writing your list. It does however give you 2 or three minutes to plan a few moves or change your battle plan accordingly.

Plus it's always a real boon to watch SM players put a Hooded Libby in their list, only to read yours and see there's NO farseers in it!!

I hate list tailoring. "oh you are playing eldar, well ive coincidentally decided to switch that speeder and a rhino out for a librarian". In some clubs I know everyone does it, and thats ok if its the accepted norm. But when it is not the norm, and when the majority of club members dont play it then dont tailor. When, while playing space marines, your army is missile havocs, and thousand sons, and then playing foot eldar your chaos list is heavy bolter havocs, mark of khorne marines, and dreadnoughts there was probably some tailoring.

Its generally bad etiquette. Although some tournaments dont require 1 list, if they dont specifically mention that you CAN bring multiple lists its always a good idea to bring one all comers army list. You are likely to get thrown out if you bring 5 lists under the pretext "the rules didnt say I cant".

eNvY wrote:

Alvar wrote:

eNvY wrote:IF you are playing a tournament, then you must bring the same exact army list to every game or else you are cheating.

In a friendly, I find it would be unsportsmanlike to ask an opponent what they were playing and then tailor your list to face them.

Why? Right out of the rule on how to start a game, you decide points then the army your playing. It's not a tournment where you have to make list based off not knowing what army you are facing. I agree with what was posted after your post. I bring the army suited for the army i'm facing. And expect my foe to do the same.

There are three issues with this. The first one is that most people don't play that way. Therefore, players actually spend considerable time building an all-comers list and learning how to play it. Lots of people also tend to come to games with lists prepared ahead of time. I myself always print out my Army Builders lists before the games, and oftentimes only bring the models for that list. The last issue is that some people lack the model collection to be able to swap things in and out. Many of the people are face are young teenagers whom have to run foot tactical squads because they haven't saved up enough allowance money for Rhinos. I myself have an extensive collection of Eldar, so I would have an advantage is being able to swap units in out whilst my opponent cannot.

Most people according to who? it depends on where and who you play with. I like all comers lists better, but most people in my area dont play that way, i do it anyway and accept having a sub optimal list.

It depends on your environment, it is not unusual for leagues to be run in tailored format, just like any other sport league. Tournaments will have this defined ahead of time, so there is no problem there. If you wander what to do in a club, then simply ask your opponent what he would like to do, being a friendly match, there should be no problem for you using a few count as.

I think most according to most. Start a poll, at least 75% of people will tell you they dont play with list tailoring.

List tailoring is a crutch! Cast it away and walk, you are healed praise Jesus!

Seriously, I don't do it and only the TFGs at my old LGS would really make a habit out of it. Bringing a gun to what everyone else has agreed to what should be a knife fight makes you a bit of a... well... I better not say.

In a tournament it doesn't matter what you ask your opponent, because they have a set list. Asking about someone's army in a friendly game is fine, if you're not doing so to base your list upon your findings.

The SOP in my regular group is non-disclosed armies. Points level, time and place for the match is agreed but the exact army you will choose is a secret. Missions are randomized.

Eidolon wrote:I think most according to most. Start a poll, at least 75% of people will tell you they dont play with list tailoring.

That may be true on Dakka. But, this site tends to see more "hardcore" players than "casual" ones. That means more tournaments over more casual games. My feeling is that tournaments and competitive play don't typically list tailor, where as friendly games between casual players do typically list tailor.

Ultimately, it's a matter of personal taste. Do whichever you prefer, but make sure your opponent agrees with you.

It all depends on your enviroment. In mine, we tailor ours to our opponents, though we are starting up a tourny where you need 1500 pt All Comers Lists (I posted mine on here for some help, but no one commented on it )

Grakmar wrote:

Eidolon wrote:I think most according to most. Start a poll, at least 75% of people will tell you they dont play with list tailoring.

That may be true on Dakka. But, this site tends to see more "hardcore" players than "casual" ones. That means more tournaments over more casual games. My feeling is that tournaments and competitive play don't typically list tailor, where as friendly games between casual players do typically list tailor.

Ultimately, it's a matter of personal taste. Do whichever you prefer, but make sure your opponent agrees with you.

As was said before, list tailoring is a crutch. If you always have the right army for the opponent then you won't really learn how to play your army fully. Undisclosed lists before the game make it more challenging and in the end, fun.

Dakka has Dash, we are therefore 89% more META than anyone else.

zeshin wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

Eidolon wrote:I think most according to most. Start a poll, at least 75% of people will tell you they dont play with list tailoring.

That may be true on Dakka. But, this site tends to see more "hardcore" players than "casual" ones. That means more tournaments over more casual games. My feeling is that tournaments and competitive play don't typically list tailor, where as friendly games between casual players do typically list tailor.

Ultimately, it's a matter of personal taste. Do whichever you prefer, but make sure your opponent agrees with you.

As was said before, list tailoring is a crutch. If you always have the right army for the opponent then you won't really learn how to play your army fully. Undisclosed lists before the game make it more challenging and in the end, fun.

How is it a crutch? I know how to play my army. I don't play tournaments and no intention to. I would argue that i know how to play my army better. Because i know how to use my whole codex, not just parts of it. It would seem these days that people tend to play "lists" not "armies". I agree i tend to be in the minority. But i collect an army to play all parts of it. When i play a pickup game it's not a tournament why do i have to play by a tounament mentality? If i went to a tournament i know to expect. Again i repeat, i'm not playing a tounament. I'm not playing "all comers". I'm a single oppnent in a one off game.

zeshin wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

Eidolon wrote:I think most according to most. Start a poll, at least 75% of people will tell you they dont play with list tailoring.

That may be true on Dakka. But, this site tends to see more "hardcore" players than "casual" ones. That means more tournaments over more casual games. My feeling is that tournaments and competitive play don't typically list tailor, where as friendly games between casual players do typically list tailor.

Ultimately, it's a matter of personal taste. Do whichever you prefer, but make sure your opponent agrees with you.

As was said before, list tailoring is a crutch. If you always have the right army for the opponent then you won't really learn how to play your army fully. Undisclosed lists before the game make it more challenging and in the end, fun.

It comes down to what you gets you more fun out of. Just like you have heavy bolter's over plasma against a GI playing marines, he will have Plasma over Bolters, it is not a crutch because it cuts both ways.

And regarding a poll, please, like 100 or so votes would have any statistical value. Just run an unrelated poll here yesterday and got something like 60 votes total, 80% stating X. Run the same poll in a local 500 or so total users and got 40 votes total, 80% stating Y. It boils down to your environment.

what he's taking. what his models can do. what happens if a certain situation regarding Special Rules arises (Fateweaver and Null Zone for example)

Before I make my list? No.

For our campaigns, where you play against multiple armies each round, we no longer allow list tailoring. You make 1 army list for that round. That's it.

It is much more fun this way that the way of the previous campaign: picking a new army list vs tau, IG, Eldar, etc.

(Outside of tourneys) I have been known to ask for people to tailor their list to beat mine.

Does that count?

Alvar wrote:How is it a crutch? I know how to play my army. I don't play tournaments and no intention to. I would argue that i know how to play my army better. Because i know how to use my whole codex, not just parts of it. It would seem these days that people tend to play "lists" not "armies". I agree i tend to be in the minority. But i collect an army to play all parts of it. When i play a pickup game it's not a tournament why do i have to play by a tounament mentality? If i went to a tournament i know to expect. Again i repeat, i'm not playing a tounament. I'm not playing "all comers". I'm a single oppnent in a one off game.

Making a list specifically to beat a particular enemy because you knew ahead of time what your were up against is the opposite of playing an army. If you don't know who or what your going to be playing before hand than you have to make a balanced army which is made up of a diverse sample of what that race has to offer.