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Unless you're playing Dark Eldar or GK.

kirsanth wrote:(Outside of tourneys) I have been known to ask for people to tailor their list to beat mine.

Does that count?

Ill do that too. But if they do it without me asking them to then its gloves off.


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zeshin wrote:

Alvar wrote:How is it a crutch? I know how to play my army. I don't play tournaments and no intention to. I would argue that i know how to play my army better. Because i know how to use my whole codex, not just parts of it. It would seem these days that people tend to play "lists" not "armies". I agree i tend to be in the minority. But i collect an army to play all parts of it. When i play a pickup game it's not a tournament why do i have to play by a tounament mentality? If i went to a tournament i know to expect. Again i repeat, i'm not playing a tounament. I'm not playing "all comers". I'm a single oppnent in a one off game.

Making a list specifically to beat a particular enemy because you knew ahead of time what your were up against is the opposite of playing an army. If you don't know who or what your going to be playing before hand than you have to make a balanced army which is made up of a diverse sample of what that race has to offer.

This man is correct.

I do tailor my list to a point.

When I make a list I try to be balanced, but I don’t always take everything I can. I also tend to build my list off of what models I have rather than what’s the best and try to be WYSIWYG as much as possible.

Were I tend to do my real tailor my list for pick up games for a particular is if I know I am fighting Orks or Nids, I am going to leave my 3 Land Raiders at home. Why bring out something you know they have troubles with just to be WAAC. If I know I am fighting Marines or Guard though

zeshin wrote:

Alvar wrote:How is it a crutch? I know how to play my army. I don't play tournaments and no intention to. I would argue that i know how to play my army better. Because i know how to use my whole codex, not just parts of it. It would seem these days that people tend to play "lists" not "armies". I agree i tend to be in the minority. But i collect an army to play all parts of it. When i play a pickup game it's not a tournament why do i have to play by a tounament mentality? If i went to a tournament i know to expect. Again i repeat, i'm not playing a tounament. I'm not playing "all comers". I'm a single oppnent in a one off game.

Making a list specifically to beat a particular enemy because you knew ahead of time what your were up against is the opposite of playing an army. If you don't know who or what your going to be playing before hand than you have to make a balanced army which is made up of a diverse sample of what that race has to offer.

I beg to differ. When you bring an "all around" list you limit yourself to specific choices in your codex that works against widely varing armies. So you create that list and play just that. When you create a list based off the army your facing you chose differant units best suited for that army. Therefore your playing your "army" not a "list"

It's really a simple question.

If both parties know ahead of time that list tailoring is acceptable, and both parties have the opportunity to tailor appropriately, then there is no problem.

If one person tailors his list without making his/her opponent aware of this and giving them the opportunity to do the same, I feel that to be unethical. (Please remember, "legal" and "ethical" are not the same thing.)

Alvar wrote:

eNvY wrote:IF you are playing a tournament, then you must bring the same exact army list to every game or else you are cheating.

In a friendly, I find it would be unsportsmanlike to ask an opponent what they were playing and then tailor your list to face them.

Why? Right out of the rule on how to start a game, you decide points then the army your playing. It's not a tournment where you have to make list based off not knowing what army you are facing. I agree with what was posted after your post. I bring the army suited for the army i'm facing. And expect my foe to do the same.

If you're referring just to the army itself, then...well, ultimately it doesn't matter if you're on the 'support' side. This is a situation where if one of the two players opposes it, then that's the standard. You can't give yourself a potentially gamebreaking advantage and write it off as saying that you "expected" your opponent to do the same.

If you're referring to a full army list...then Jesus, man. You're getting to a "Hole in the bucket" scenario because neither of you can tailor your army to the other because you're both actively re-doing your army.

You can ask your opponent anything before the game.

It's still up to them what they tell you.

They only HAVE to show you their list AFTER a game.

Anything else is either an unspoken 'rule' or convention.

If you tailor your list to beat someone elses, you are not playing your list.

You are playing theirs.

I believe you have to make your list available to your opponent any time after the game begins. You are not allowed to keep it secret until after the game is over.

chromedog wrote:You can ask your opponent anything before the game.

It's still up to them what they tell you.

They only HAVE to show you their list AFTER a game.

Anything else is either an unspoken 'rule' or convention.

Not true. Secrecy is 'opponents permission' based upon the rulebook. Technically the whole game is opponents permission, and you are not allowed to hide what is in transports and your wargear must be disclosed, unless you and your opponent agree to hide things.

And tailoring to your opponent is unsreasnoable in most situations. Most people are not capable of doing it, and those who are, I am not bringing 6k of orks to the store every weekend so I have every possible army option to 'tailor' my list from 45 lootas to 9 kanz to 5 BWs. And if everyone brought that many models to tailor their lists pregame, we wouldn't have any room in the store.

The justifications of tailoring ring hollow, and it sounds like an excuse to curbstomp people in unfair matchups and then crap on them by saying "nothing stopped you from bringing 6k of your chosen army to the store to tailor your list... lern2play noob."

Which is why in general, people just don't do it. Most people I see bring a static list and play it for the day. Have fun tailoring your list, but please don't pretend that somehow it is some great representation of skill or even fair to a majority of opponents. It is only sporting if both players have the full capability to execute it and the knowledge of how it impacts the metagame. otherwise it is breaking the game or exploiting a novice opponent's ignorance.

Alvar wrote:

zeshin wrote:How is it a crutch? I know how to play ... ker-SNIP!.... laying an army. If you don't know who or what your going to be playing before hand than you have to make a balanced army which is made up of a diverse sample of what that race has to offer.

I beg to differ. When you bring an "all around" list you limit yourself to specific choices in your codex that works against widely varing armies. So you create that list and play just that. When you create a list based off the army your facing you chose differant units best suited for that army. Therefore your playing your "army" not a "list"

Alvar, if I know the enemy will be Bob's foot slogging orks, then it is quite to my advantage to load up on templates, making it easier to defeat Bob. He and agreed to meet, and know each other's lists. Same with Fran's SM. Facing her, I skip templates and go with high AP weps. In both cases, it makes it easier for me to beat *that player*.

But in a tourney, I will face 3 different armies, and need to 'balance' my list, just in case the enemies are as diverse as Game 1 orks, game 2 Mech-dar and the last one is SM.

If I can beat Bob's foot slogging orks with the RTT list that isn't template heavy, then it shows I have won that game with less useful weapons ... less advantage, like a crutch. Crutches are a 3rd leg, like canes, walking sticks, climbing ... (spikes?) whichever.

It'll be tougher to beat Bob's orks without a buncha templates, but if I do, this indicates I don't need to tailor a list. And maybe, I'm a better general than those would need to tailor.

Make sense?

I guess you can summarize it up this way

1-list tailoring is ok generally when both players do it, and its an accepted rule between them. Not something subtly implied, but something that is an openly accepted agreement.
a. the only time tailoring your list to beat someone elses is ok, and when they dont do it back, would be when they asked you to. "hey your orks have had trouble with my nids, I really dont like lootas, maybe you should add 15 more to your army so you can shoot more of my dudes off the table".
b. when tailoring down your list during a game vs a beginner. I will almost always remove the more killer elements of my list when playing someone new to the game, as I dont want to curb stomp them.

2-List tailoring is not ok when both players arent doing it. If I brought my take all comers nids, you better play your take all comers army too, unless one of the above situations has happened. Its not a 100% rule. But if you super tailor your list to beat someone, dont expect to play them again.

3-Playing with tailored lists does not make you a better player, or let you play the army better. It means you dont know the codex well enough to maximize the strengths and weaknesses. Foot orks? Let me drop my 6 hive guard and 3 zoanthropes for 27 toxin sac stealers. Mech space marines? Those hive guard are going back into the army, and since you dont have a raider ill drop the zooeys for another 3. You dont have to worry about a bad match up this way. And beating bad match ups is a very important part of being a good player.

Most players at our FLGS play balanced lists or funky ones for fun. However we have this one imperial guard and space wolves player that min/maxes the fkkkk outta his list against your army, all the time.

Since I have three armies, I tend to have a premade list and just say a points value and denote my army and list before hand. It's about the only way I can have a reasonably fun game against his internet/tourney builds.

This isn't the same everywhere but as it stands you should either both say what races you are playing, or both not and you should agree on what your going to do beforehand.

So, as far as the original question, you can ask your opponent anything. The difference is the responses that you will get.

The only thing we do pre-game is choose the mission. So many of the Battle missions remove mechanics like deep strike and reserve certain lists won't work, so we just roll the mission, make the list to the mission not the opponent.