Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok so this came up last night during a game. Can a hellhound fire at the upper floors of a building if the template remains within 12" (on the angle)?

We ruled as yes because it made sense but I'm wondering if we ruled it correctly?

You don't place the template on an upwards angle. You declare which level you are firing at (you can fire at the the same level as the firing model is on or one level up or one level down. You place the template flat over the area you are firing and determine hit models from there. The picture on pg 85 shows pretty well how it works. It still works this way with the hellhound, you can just be further away when you fire it.

Page 85 shows you how to fire Templates into ruins.

You 2 are being slightly ignorant of the question. A hellhound has a range at which it can place its template. I would rule that it can fire at a level up to 12 above it.

Jaon wrote:You 2 are being slightly ignorant of the question. A hellhound has a range at which it can place its template. I would rule that it can fire at a level up to 12 above it.

If you read the page numbers that they provided, you'll see that this is false. Template weapons can only fire on the same level as, or one level above or below, the model firing it. Nothing in the Hellhound rules changes this, so it is still bound by this restriction.

Agreed with Cheexsta.

You can fire it from further away, yes, but otherwise RAW the template rules are still in effect. You can fire one floor up or down (unless you're a skimmer, jetbike, or jump infantry).

The Hellhound's flamethrower is not a standard flamethrower so it's specific codex rules override the rulebook.

The rule for flamethrowers says "place the template touching the model's base" yet it does not apply to a hellhound, the hellhound specifically has special rules stating
"*To fire the inferno cannon place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the large end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The inferno cannon is then treated like any other template weapon." (It's only treated like any other template weapon AFTER it is deployed completely differently i.e. on the 3rd floor of a building already, as is impossible with a normal flamethrower fired from the model's base since it isn't fired from the model's base.)

The inferno cannon only follows normal template rules AFTER its completely separate placement rules are fully applied.

Since it can choose any spot 12" away from itself to place the flamethrower at, that spot is where the flamethrower is fired from. So if it chooses 12" away on the 3rd floor of the building for the flamer, that is obviously where the flamethrower starts at.

The model's level is irrelevant because the special rules deploy the flamer somewhere that is not where the model is. It also does not specify that the flamethrower (which can be placed 12" away and facing sideways) isn't allowed to be placed on top of a building or anything else like that.

The main rulebook addresses default flamers without special deployment rules. A flamethrower comes from the point it is fired from which for a normal trooper is "at their base" yet it is NOT fired "from the base" of a Hellhound. So maybe it can be fired one level up or down of the spot where the flying flamethrower lands at, but since he's allowed to shoot it anywhere within 12", that means any floor within range.

It certainly doesn't make sense that a jetbike's base isn't 12" up in the air and yet the flamethrower is placed "in base contact" and yet hits 12" up, but a ball of fire that can be shot 12" up into a window and starts from that point can't hit the guys inside (by one reading of the rules only.) It's a semantics problem because of badly written GW rules.

It's not a very common situation and GW is terrible at providing support for their products so it's just up to if you play with people who try to abuse semantics against you.

TheBloodGod wrote:The Hellhound's flamethrower is not a standard flamethrower so it's specific codex rules override the rulebook.

Wrong. It has the Range of "Template" and a special rule allowing you to place it further than the end of its barrel.

That is ALL that is different. Nothing says it doesn't follow the rest of the template rules, so it doesn't not follow them (ow, my brain).

Gwar! wrote:

TheBloodGod wrote:The Hellhound's flamethrower is not a standard flamethrower so it's specific codex rules override the rulebook.

Wrong. It has the Range of "Template" and a special rule allowing you to place it further than the end of its barrel.

That is ALL that is different. Nothing says it doesn't follow the rest of the template rules, so it doesn't not follow them (ow, my brain).

All that is different is that it's placed somewhere else. Which is 100% significant for determining what can be hit by it.

The Template weapon does not appear on the guy standing on the ground, it appears from a fixed point chosen within 12" of the special gun.

RAW you can use a non-sense argument if you want. It definitely doesn't make sense to consider an artillery-flamethrower which lands on top of a building to be identical to a guy holding a flamethrower on the ground. It's pretty clear the position of the "firing model" would basically be where the flamethrower lands (could be 3rd floor if within 12") at which point it can hit 2nd to 4th floors.

I prefer common sense over semantics loopholes IMO, but as I said, anyone can BS to completely ignore the special codex rules if they want to be a prick about it.

Ooooh, so you want to claim Fluff is rules.

Now I understand.

It doesn't matter, you are still limited to firing one level up or down. The rules for the hellhound do not overwrite that as it's still a template.

To claim that the Hellhound can't shoot at any level within 12" of the gun is absolutely ludicrous and rules lawering at it's worst.

If Skimmers, Jump Infantry and Jetbikes are allowed to pick any level (which they can), then so can the hellhound.

Because?

Honestly, that's not what the rules say at all. The hellhound is still a template weapon and if you fire at an unit in a ruin you use the template rules in the ruin section.

The way I see it, I would play that you had to target one floor only as per COD but as long as that floor is within 12" of the cannon I dont see a problem.
Must admit that to claim it should follow standard template rules when it has its own firing rules in its codex entry is somewhat, erm, harsh.

I don't call it harsh at all. Otherwise I could fire it into Close Combat "as it is treated as a template weapon AFTER it is placed".

I think it's easier to follow the rules we have. The only mention we have of templates against ruins is in the rulebook. It mentions different things for jump infantry, skimmers and jetbikes, but vehicles have to follow the rules in there, unless the vehicle have some kind of special rule (Which the hellhound don't).

Grim.Badger wrote:To claim that the Hellhound can't shoot at any level within 12" of the gun is absolutely ludicrous and rules lawering at it's worst.

If Skimmers, Jump Infantry and Jetbikes are allowed to pick any level (which they can), then so can the hellhound.

Skimmers, Jump Infantry and Jetbikes and pick any level because the rules say they can.

I didn't notice "and hellhounds" on that list.

While I'm not going to stick around and argue (since Gwar! will never give up), I'm going to agree with TheBloodGod in that this is a case where GW needs testers with more brains, or better 'dex writers.

Obviously Gwar! is correct about RAW ('cause that's what he does), and in some cases RAI is quite a stretch or an attempt to add funky "realistic" rules. In this case, though, I think firing at any level in range is a very, very small intuitive leap.

That said, I'd let it slide if my opponent felt strongly about it.

Oh I don't disagree that's how it should work, and I'd be perfectly fine with working it out as a house rule. RaW however is pretty clear, even if you don't agree with it.

To fire the inferno cannon place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the large end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The inferno cannon is then treated like any other template weapon.
-Imperial Guard Codex, page 50, emphasis added.

The specific instructions for placing the template in the IG Codex override the normal BRB rules for placing templates. The word "then" clues you in to the fact that yo follow the rules for "any other template weapon" for wounding models under the template, ignoring cover, etc. But the placement of the template is governed by the Hellhound's special rule.

I'm not sure why everyone in this thread thinks that Page 85's template placement rule still applies, but not page 29's template placement rule. The Hellhound has special rules for placing it's template that override the template placement rules used by most units.

Errm... What?

All that rule does is let it be placed beyond its barral.

Here is a hint: "then treated like any other template weapon" means it is treated like a template weapon.

SHOCKING! I know.

Template Weapons must declare the level of a ruin they are firing at.

Don't like it? Tough luck imo.

Also, if the template is treated as a template AFTER you place it, then you can fire into combat, as long as you target something else.

Turrets are stated to have roughly a 45 degree upwards arc, though, are they not?

Could you not declare a level more than one level above the model, if the turret could legally aim at it? As long as you can draw a straight 12-inch line from the barrel to the level itself, where the template would be placed, how is this illegal?

Because a template can only fire on one level up/down due to the ruin rules. Cut and dry..and ready to be served.

Oscarius wrote:Also, if the template is treated as a template AFTER you place it, then you can fire into combat, as long as you target something else.

Except that the template cannot touch any friendly models or models locked in close combat. The closest you could get would be roughly one micrometer from the base of a model locked in close combat, in which case you wouldn't be firing into combat.

If you place the template on a model in close combat, the treat the weapon like a template weapon, the template is now illegally placed on a model in close combat.

Holy gak, I think I just answered my previous question. Once the weapon is treated like a template weapon, while 12" from the barrel but two levels above the tank would be legal placement BEFORE it's treated like a template weapon, as soon as the template weapon rules kick in, the placement BECOMES illegal, since the template is now being placed two levels above the model firing it.

Exactly.

Dur. I am brayn smert.

I have to say that I hate this --> () icon on dakka, on other forums you can use it as a silly icon, here it just looks like I mock people.

Anyway, I think it's a job well done here.

Oscarius wrote:I have to say that I hate this --> () icon on dakka, on other forums you can use it as a silly icon, here it just looks like I mock people.

Anyway, I think it's a job well done here.

You should use to mock people, mainly because I helped make it.

Alright, I'll remember that, might not make much use of it though.

Isn't this all assuming it's a ruin and has been defined as such pre game? What about terrain rules for non ruin buildings?