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I've noticed that Marines seem to be particularly underwhelming in their vehicle numbers. One example of this is the Blood Angels: Granted, they have Stormravens, but their Thunderhawk Transporter count is 3. 3 fething Transporters for 43 Land Raiders. They DS Land Raiders with those things, they lose one to AA fire and that's 1/3 of their heavy transporters gone. Why do Marines seem to have such few numbers in vehicles? Another example is their fleet list. I've been reading the HH novels and it described the Legions has having massive fleets range of huge numbers of massive ships, yet the Blangels have only 2 Battle Barges, surely this is simply too few ships?

Where'd you find this out? I'm no expert at Blangels fluff but here are my guess as to why

1. They've taken some heavy casualties over the years and are in the process of resupplying their fleet

2. GW made a boo-boo with the numbers

3. you misread it (incredibly unlikely)

Oh, and remember during the HH the legions where absolutely huge compared to chapters, and would probably have way more ships to accommodate the higher amount of troops.

You're right though, that is far to few ships.

The main reason for this is because Marines aren't intended to to be a front line force to begin with (anymore). Land Raiders are just remnants of the Great Crusade, they don't fit in well with the Marines' current tactical and strategic purpose.

Front line capable tanks that can safely deliver assault troops aren't part of the Marine's current tactical and strategic purpose?

I was under the assumption that because Blood Angels did not hand over the Baal Predator Template the Adeptus Mechanicus were almost ignorant of the Blood Angels vehicular orders??

Yes, Alpharius, that is correct. Because they're front line tanks, and Marines are no longer front line units.

Think about it this way-- in what way to Marines function best in the year 41,000? When they drop in, kill everything that moves, then leave before the enemy reprisal. You can thank Calgar and his codex for that.

Not when they are forced to stand on the front lines and take fire, and therefor take casualties. That's what the Guard are supposed to do. Marines are the scalpel and stiletto, while Guard are the hammer and anvil.

Most Land Raiders and equivalent vehicles are leftovers from the Great Crusade (or at the very least, designs left over from that era), when Marines actually had the numbers to be front line units, and used that style of combat for the most part. They don't anymore except in desperate situations. And when they do, they take a lot of casualties, though if they win their tough biologies occasionally allow these casualties to continue fighting. If they have Guard to back them up (which is most of the time), rapid strikes are a much more efficient use of their skills.

Roboute Guilliman and his little book, not Calgar.

Also the Blood Angels probably had fewer vehicles before their latest release which probably forgot about the Thunderhawk shortage. Or maybe the Blood Angel Land Raiders are not dropped in by Thunderhawks and are actually capable of travelling through space; not dropped, but simply landing.

In previous fluff most chapters have had limited equipment, which is possibly replaced when attrition deems it necessary.

Some chapters have lots of x others lots of y some have none of z even though it may be standard equipment. Chapter fleets vary as well.

The Ultras would have a large fleet of vessels whilst, other Chapters, depending on circumstance, would have more or less.

It used to be important and an aid to creating fluffy armies that you were invested in but now....

And @Valkyrie to be fair to Blood Angels. There aren't so many transporters but.. Look! Fruity variant Dreadnoughts! You can throw off the back of your transports! Forget them being ancient and delicate warmachines that need careful tending and that the technology to create them is almost lost.

Bombs away!







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n0t_u wrote:Roboute Guilliman and his little book, not Calgar.

Also the Blood Angels probably had fewer vehicles before their latest release which probably forgot about the Thunderhawk shortage. Or maybe the Blood Angel Land Raiders are not dropped in by Thunderhawks and are actually capable of travelling through space; not dropped, but simply landing.

Massive grav chute?

An add on pack with disposable wings and thrusters would be cool.

Any third party bits companies? Heres your chance!

Its the lack of knowledge of GW's design team. They don't care about force composition and casualties/reinforcement.

Did you ever see/hear of supplies?
GW decided to go with a small piece of the greater battle in size and time, but pretends to provide the whole picture in the fluff too.
They better keep M.W off from to telling us about the landing crafts of the IG, would be the same mess as the T-hawks of the BA.

The BA got these pics of deepstriking Land raiders on the i-web, but also a codex where T-hawks are responsible for transport.
So either we assume the BA have the landing crafts used in Epic:Armageddon, or a certain author can't get the numbers correctly.

I see it as a issue of fluff vs game, its ok to consider deepstrikers and vehicles land 'magically' somehow and just partake in the battle.
Those with interest in the background may dislike the lack of effort put into the page with the composition of the BA chapter.
Normally, vehicles are transported with T-Hawk transporters ( plus in epic : landing craft ). Infantry bikes and dreads in basic T-hawks.
Parts of these passengers may use the StormRavens, but not all can.
Additionally, deepstriking landspeeders are also brought in with T-hawks.
IMO, the author got carried away with the shiny new StormRavens and didn't think about transport capacity for those without access to.

--------------------------------

front line troops:

A point i think should be addressed too.

1) front line troops are:
- detachments of SM chapters
- IG regiments
- more IG regiments
- much more IG regiments
- ok too many to count IG units
- any detachment the mechanicum deem to contribute
- sometimes PDF regiments

2) a front line must not be a line, as battles may rage across a wider area.
3) the IoM knows more than just "war of attrition". There is a reason for tactical analysis. Don't mock the tacticae!
4) players use armies of a company size mostly, conflicts see armies of division level or higher. If you want everything, play Apoc.
5) the IoM operates as combined forces. Yes there is a Hammer and a anvil. But there s other weapons too. Ignore them and they hit you were it counts..
6) the misconception of tanks supporting infantry. Yes I know a british company located in Nottingham still uses such WWI-esque
approach to explain the mix of tanks and infantry of the IG. But its a terrible idea. Generally units work best if they're playing to their strengths, so armored regiments would do a fast push followed by mechanized infantry and not share their tanks with some footsloggers.
Artillery would also find a place to deploy and keep on supporting from afar, not shooting at gunbarrel length...
Thing is, to provide a selection of units, army lists and fluff may differ.
7) Space Marines.
Why should they not field tanks? They would not become easy targets, as you don'T have the luxury to pick out the few SM vehicles
of the Imperial force attacking you. Would like to suggest the background of the Land Raider release, a bunch of LR isn't that easy to stop
and the Space Marines are able to put a nice selection of passengers into them.
8) do not doubt the Emperors decree to restrict the usage of LR to SM

Yes, as I said, because "tanks are cool".

A bunch of Land Raiders isn't easy to deploy either, nor is it actually all that common to see more than one at any given time. Land Raiders are ridiculously rare relics.

In the average chapter, the most you might find is ten (one per squad in first company), and that's if the chapter is fully supplied (the source for this is the fluff for Salamanders, which state that they have an altered version of the Codex Astartes which has 12 squads in first company instead of ten, and therefor they have twelve Land Raiders instead of the normal ten). Most, from what I can tell, aren't so well equipped-- just like many other things in the Imperium.

As for attrition? If you're on front line duties, you're going to be facing it. Units take casualties. I never said they formed a "line" or anything, only that front line units require Marines don't do that unless they absolutely have to. What they do is they drop in, kill everything that moves, and leave to the next target, moving quickly as they can (thus using the fast moving Rhino and Razorback transports which have protection on their sides as well as front) to avoid enemy reprisal.

"Front Line" means (drawing this from Wikipedia, which cites the USAF journal):

[...] the forward-most friendly and hostile forces that are presently on the battlefield during an armed conflict or war; whether it be regular infantry or reconnaissance.

IE, what I'm saying is Marines would normally operate "behind enemy lines", where they can do the most damage given their equipment loadout. While Dawn of War 2 is sort of secondary canon (being a game), I think the way they depicted the Marines is accurate. Deploy near a target, fight their way to it, kill it, and extract. Move on to the next target.

This, to me, explains why they seem undersupplied with "front line" equipment. I mean the Bolter is a very inefficient weapon in comparison to the Lasgun (the former requires magazines which hold roughly 24 shots each, the latter requires smaller, lighter, and cheaper batteries which hold many hundreds of shots each). Given the number of protracted wars in 40k, a front line unit needs efficient yet effective equipment. But Marines have a loadout for a different kind of mission than front-line duty... they have equipment designed for behind-enemy-lines duty where easy deployment and extraction is possible.

Melissia wrote: "tanks are cool".

The coolness of Tanks is not in doubt.

But the number of Tanks is also unlimited.
There was never a restriction to Armored Companys and Superheavies lost this 'rare' status with their plastic kit/Apoc.

Melissia wrote:
A bunch of Land Raiders isn't easy to deploy either, nor is it actually all that common to see more than one at any given time. Land Raiders are ridiculously rare relics.

Lets see:
Index astartes III page 58-63 Land Raider
should answer the questions why and how Land Raiders are used.

- Land Raiders were used in every Imperial force until the Emperor decreed their restriction to astartes after the loss of the major production facility of Land Raiders.
- Land Raiders can operate almost everywhere. Yes underwater too.
- 2 campaigns are shown, the LR as single vehicle and as column of 5. In both cases not left alone all the time, but losses are taken.
- Land Raider provide supplies and can reload systems of PA/TDA.

since SM can drop 'hot' in ( risky and way to unhealthy for normal humans ) and operate under most circumstances, a Land Raider
has perfect synergy with their tactics and needs. The decision of our glorious Emperor shall not be questioned.

The point of the OP was:
too many LR and too few Transporters, if I read correctly.
And I do agree. 2 Battlebarges, 7 attack cruisers and 16 smaller craft should carry more than 3 Transport-hawks. Until those 36
standard T-hawks are easy to refit as transport variant and just not listed in a mechanized setup but a infantry heavy configuration.
His next point was: not enough space vessels
IMO, 1000+x marines should fit into the mentioned fleet. Maybe some BFG player can help?

Interstingly, BA got 51 StormRavens. Throw every dread and up to 300 jumppackers at once into battle..

Melissia wrote:"Front Line" means (drawing this from Wikipedia, which cites the USAF journal):

the USAF has no idea of 40k...

Front line would be everything that operates there or beyond. Thus marines are front line troops.




Firstly Melissia: we don't need another boltgun vs lasgun debate.
If you like , refer to Munitorum manual page 62-65.


Secondly, to refer to Salamanders is welcome. Please look up " Salamander/BL". Face off with orks, front line duty.

1hadhq wrote:

Melissia wrote:"Front Line" means (drawing this from Wikipedia, which cites the USAF journal):

the USAF has no idea of 40k...

Using 'real world' examples to 'explain' something in 40K is not a good idea, most times.

1hadhq wrote:
Front line would be everything that operates there or beyond. Thus marines are front line troops.

Yes, they are, but you'll run into people that will, for some reason, argue otherwise.

1hadhq wrote:
The point of the OP was:
too many LR and too few Transporters, if I read correctly.
And I do agree. 2 Battlebarges, 7 attack cruisers and 16 smaller craft should carry more than 3 Transport-hawks. Until those 36
standard T-hawks are easy to refit as transport variant and just not listed in a mechanized setup but a infantry heavy configuration.
His next point was: not enough space vessels
IMO, 1000+x marines should fit into the mentioned fleet. Maybe some BFG player can help?

A single Strike Cruiser(a vessel the size of a dauntless Light Cruiser) carries a full company according to the BFG fluff. Battlebarges can carry and launch 4(!) Companies simultaneously and support. 2 BBs and 7 Cruisers is more than enough to carry the entire Chapter.

1hadhq is correct.

Also, SMs are supposed to be like commandoes, paratroops, Navy SEALs or Napoleon's Imperial Guard. They aren't "front line troops" in the sense of being another ordinary unit you just stick in the line.

Again, we seem to get caught up with 'real world' 21st century definitions for made up events and things almost 40,000 years in the made up future.

Marines most certainly are going to be at the forefront, spearhead, etc. etc.

1hadhq wrote:1: But the number of Tanks is also unlimited. There was never a restriction to Armored Companys and Superheavies lost this 'rare' status with their plastic kit/Apoc.

2: Lets see:
Index astartes III page 58-63 Land Raider
should answer the questions why and how Land Raiders are used.

3: His next point was: not enough space vessels
IMO, 1000+x marines should fit into the mentioned fleet. Maybe some BFG player can help?

4: Front line would be everything that operates there or beyond. Thus marines are front line troops.

5: Firstly Melissia: we don't need another boltgun vs lasgun debate.

6: Secondly, to refer to Salamanders is welcome. Please look up " Salamander/BL". Face off with orks, front line duty.

Numbered, because I don't feel like multiquoting.

1: Which goes to show that most tanks, and indeed most superheavies are used with Imperial Guard in the fluff, not with Marines. Very, very few Marine chapters still have Baneblades, and the ones that do usually use them defensively because they are extremely difficult to transport from planet to planet due to their size and weight. Indeed, Epic supports this with its rules too.

2: Yes, and? They're still quite rare. A dozen or so per Space Marine chapter, more in older chapters such as Blood Angels or Ultramarines. So that means probably 1500-1750 Land Raiders in the entire galaxy under Loyalist control. Which if you take the bare minimum number of planets (which I do not believe is accurate), is between 3 LRs for every 20 worlds (1.5 for every 10), or 7 LRs for every 40 (1.75 for every 10). That isn't really a very impressive number, and that's with it assuming something we already know to be false-- that all Marine chapters are fully stocked, and all of these machines are fully operable.

3: According to the fluff I know from that game, Strike Cruisers can carry one company (100) of Space Marines and its various assorted equipment and vehicles, and carry enough drop pods and thunder hawks to deploy them, though I'm not sure how many the latter would be. Probably varies from chapter to chapter.

4: I do not agree with that definition. If a unit is deployed onto a battlefield tens if not hundreds of miles away from the front lines in enemy territory, they are not operating in a front line capacity, but a far more dangerous behind the lines capacity.

5: No, we don't. If you want to contradict what I have said about the two weapons in this thread, you would be in the wrong and contradicted by every piece of fluff ever written. So it would be helpful if you just didn't start the argument to begin with.

6: Yes, I know. And though they did their job admirably, they were not operating at their peak capabilities in doing such work. IE, I believe they could have been doing better things with their time and blood than fighting long, protracted wars. Arming a single Space Marine for a single battle is more expensive than arming an entire platoon of Guard for an extended war. Arming a Space Marine for a protracted war is ludicrously expensive, taxing on the Imperium's resources-- which though great are still finite.

Melissia wrote:
Numbered, because I don't feel like multiquoting.

1: Which goes to show that most tanks, and indeed most superheavies are used with Imperial Guard in the fluff, not with Marines. Very, very few Marine chapters still have Baneblades, and the ones that do usually use them defensively because they are extremely difficult to transport from planet to planet due to their size and weight. Indeed, Epic supports this with its rules too.

2: Yes, and? They're still quite rare. A dozen or so per Space Marine chapter, more in older chapters such as Blood Angels or Ultramarines. So that means probably 1500-1750 Land Raiders in the entire galaxy under Loyalist control. Which if you take the bare minimum number of planets (which I do not believe is accurate), is between 3 LRs for every 20 worlds (1.5 for every 10), or 7 LRs for every 40 (1.75 for every 10). That isn't really a very impressive number, and that's with it assuming something we already know to be false-- that all Marine chapters are fully stocked, and all of these machines are fully operable.

3: According to the fluff I know from that game, Strike Cruisers can carry one company (100) of Space Marines and its various assorted equipment and vehicles, and carry enough drop pods and thunder hawks to deploy them, though I'm not sure how many the latter would be. Probably varies from chapter to chapter.

4: I do not agree with that definition. If a unit is deployed onto a battlefield tens if not hundreds of miles away from the front lines in enemy territory, they are not operating in a front line capacity, but a far more dangerous behind the lines capacity.

5: No, we don't. If you want to contradict what I have said about the two weapons in this thread, you would be in the wrong and contradicted by every piece of fluff ever written. So it would be helpful if you just didn't start the argument to begin with.

6: Yes, I know. And though they did their job admirably, they were not operating at their peak capabilities in doing such work. IE, I believe they could have been doing better things with their time and blood than fighting long, protracted wars. Arming a single Space Marine for a single battle is more expensive than arming an entire platoon of Guard for an extended war. Arming a Space Marine for a protracted war is ludicrously expensive, taxing on the Imperium's resources-- which though great are still finite.

1) nobody said marines contribute the majority of tanks. If you cared to read the article about LR, there is an example of LR squadrons
supporting Guard Tanks. SM fluff says SM tanks are used to breach enemy strongpoints, so the masses of the IG can flood in.
The light Predator tanks are from design and purpose not meant to be the body of a tank battle.
The heavy Land Raiders are maybe viable in dense terrain, but they really shine where IG cant operate ( terrain or atmosphere ).
The typical tank battle is and stays the job of the leman russ and its variants.

2) AHA, got a YES.
BA already have 43. Would guess enough to transport 450-500 passengers at once. Double threat.
And my friends the BT. Enough LRC to move them all.
The time of rare relics has ended with the plastic kits.
Executioners were a rare and nearly lost tech. Now Guard can have as much as they want.
Same with LR. GW invented the redeemer and the crusader, a grey knight variant and FW keeps on churning out new variants.

3) Seems we can all agree the Blood angels fleet can transport them all. Part of the op's question solved.

4) So marines are not front line but behind enemy line troops? Somehow, claiming one cannot perform a less dangerous duty
and thus not a front line troop is a bit confusing at best.
Plus incorrect. Marines may not stand in serried ranks like line troops in the napoleonic era. But they will support the IG front directly
with countercharges and holding key positions. They may flank and infiltrate/deepstrike to break an assault/ kill enemy HQ's.
If you can provide a source that proves that marines sit back there at the artillery emplacements and shudder in fear of losing too many
battlebrothers, then you may have a point. IF not, I would suggest to accept the point of moving front lines in a mechanized battle
are what is 'reality' in 40k.

5) Offered to leave it, so why do you believe its advisable to react in your style without me insisting on the source i did provide?
No, i don't take back what I said. The Munitorum is correct as it is the supplier of weapons and ammo and knows best.

6) Again, the Salamanders did face off a full scale ork waagh. Yes they had orbital support and a nice special weapon. But they fought
the horde head on too and did not loose many brothers. Plus they managed to protect their human serfs.
It was possible because they used tactic and strategy, things not unknown but sadly ignored too often.

2: Just because you can have a lot in tabletop doesn't mean it isn't rare in fluff. Plasmaguns are very rare in fluff, but you can have a Guard army where every single squad has a plasma gun. This is something known in the genre as "story and gameplay separation". Because of supply shortages (due to the nature of war) Marine chapters can end up unfortunately (and potentially dangerously) under-equipped in ammunition, vehicles, and repair/replacement supplies. You know, just like any other army.

4: I never claimed they couldn't do front line troops. Only that they are not equipped for it, so they don't do it as well as armies that ARE equipped for it, and they're better off operating elsewhere.

5: And the Munitorum does not contradict me. Nor does, say, the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. Or the various books of Dark Heresy. Shall we move on?

6: I do not believe you responded to what I actually said... and I quote: "though they did their job admirably [...]" I am not saying Marines are incapable of doing it. Only that this is not the best use for them.

5) there was no reason to stay, I am just interested why you feel the need to bring it up again and again in several threads.
Move=>

*comms out due resting phase ( around 01.50 here ) *

The Adeptus Astarte Are the futuristic Version of The United States Marine Corp The Few The Proud The Marines The First To Go The Last To Go...Gung-Ho Gung-Ho What Makes The Grass Grow Blood Blood Blood.." The United States Marine Corps, with its fiercely proud tradition of excellence in combat, its hallowed rituals, and its unbending code of honor, is part of the fabric of American myth."
Thomas E. Ricks; Making the Corps, 1997

"
A Marine should be sworn to the patient endurance of hardships, like the ancient knights; and it is not the least of these necessary hardships to have to serve with sailors."
Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery

Does this not remind you of something From the far flung future of 40k

And to the OP it doesn't Make sense to have only 3 thunder hawks But its do or die

I think that the thunderhawk transporter is a joke. While its the new rage I understand because forgeworld made a model for it, IMHO the planetary transporter has always been, and will always be the defacto marine transport. It arrives like a drop pod, and can carry up to 4 raiders, and is fielded in sufficently large numbers to land anything you carry, while not being part of the vehicle armory in the same way drop pods are not.

Thunderhawks are assault shuttles that are forced to fly CAS for marines and I believe the small number in marine rosters is thanks to limits put on what their fleet can and cant do--the Imperial Navy already looks at the battlebarges a bit suspiciously. Also, as the only CAS that marines can get, Thawks take the brunt of the space-to-space conflicts. To convert one of your precious few assault craft to a common and very innefficent transport is a horribly waste, which is why I say the transporter is a joke.

The Blood Angels actually have quite a few Land Raiders. Ultramarines for example only have 13.

But I'm sure the Ultramarines have enough T. Transporters to efficiently transport their smaller fleet.

Ya, I'm just saying that You're talking about a lack of resources at least the BAs have something to transport. 43 is an astounding amount of Land Raiders. They may have the most of any chapter in the Galaxy!

Are USMC Scout Snipers front line troops? Is Recon frontline? SAS? Delta Force? Navy Seals?

No, those are troops who make surgical strikes behind enemy lines and are extracted (hopefully) before they can suffer serious casualties. They will never be holding a city, let alone an entire region by themselves.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ya, I'm just saying that You're talking about a lack of resources at least the BAs have something to transport. 43 is an astounding amount of Land Raiders. They may have the most of any chapter in the Galaxy!

Maybe they were just greedy when the Chapters split up. Ultramarines probably split their Land Raiders equally between each of the their second founding chapters. Blood Angels on the other hand made the Flesh Tearers and a few others, gave them a Land Raider or two and then told them to bugger off.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ya, I'm just saying that You're talking about a lack of resources at least the BAs have something to transport. 43 is an astounding amount of Land Raiders. They may have the most of any chapter in the Galaxy!

Maybe they were just greedy when the Chapters split up. Ultramarines probably split their Land Raiders equally between each of the their second founding chapters. Blood Angels on the other hand made the Flesh Tearers and a few others, gave them a Land Raider or two and then told them to bugger off.

Pretty sure that's what happened to. That Tyranid nuisance prob isn't helping either.

Amaya wrote:Are USMC Scout Snipers front line troops? Is Recon frontline? SAS? Delta Force? Navy Seals?

No, those are troops who make surgical strikes behind enemy lines and are extracted (hopefully) before they can suffer serious casualties. They will never be holding a city, let alone an entire region by themselves.

...they have the skills and equipment to accomplish a certain objective...like in real life shoot the enemy leader you need the scout sniper to rescue the hostages you need the fast quite hard hitting seals and to locate the nuke that needs to be diffused you send send out the sas...and recon do you mean USMC Force Recon they are just scouts who land ahead and spot objectives....what i am trying to get are the neophytes the initiates the freaking marine scouts of 40k are pretty much the spec ops selection of space marines chapters i mean if you really sit back and look at it


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Valkyrie wrote:But I'm sure the Ultramarines have enough T. Transporters to efficiently transport their smaller fleet.

ive been reading the ultramarine omnibus and the 4th company only had one thunderhawk in the first book until the the end when the tech marines repaired the second one miraculously and in the short story chains of command they had 3 but one was blown to pieces by the traitor PDFs...maybe the BA are Superior TH pilots

The Vehicle numbers per chapter depends on the chapter and its method of resupply.


the standard number of land Raiders is 10 per chapter. 1 for each squad in the first company.

Dreadnoughts are 4 per line company

predators are 2 per line company

transports are 1 per squad with a razorback per command squad


the Aurora Chapter has 3 times this number of vehicles.


as a rule, older chapters will have more equipment. chapters near Forge Worlds and with close ties to the Ad Mech will have more equipment...