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well, the title pretty much said it all... well I suppose DoM would still suck bad for me, but i digress...

Codex: Space Marine Army listing:
Cost Advantage 2000pt
HQ
Librarian Terminator Armour and Storm Shield;
powers: Null Zone, Might of the Ancients

TROOP x 4
Tactical Squad 10 men + Flamer t+ Lascannon + Sergeant Power Sword w/ Bolt Pistol

HEAVY SUPPORT x 3
Devastator Squad 5 men + 2 Missile Launchers + Sergeant Chain Sword w/ Bolt Pistol

ELITE x 3
Sternguard Veterans Squad 5 men + 2 Missile Launchers + Sergeant combi-plasma w/ Bolt Pistol

FAST ATTACK x 3
Attack Bike Squad 2 bikes with multi-meltas, twin-linked bolters

First of all I must ask that you remove the individual point totals from your list. Unit totals are OK, but it's a violation of GW's IP to list point costs for individual upgrades (Read the guidelines at the top of the list forum for Dakka's policy on that).

As for your list, I think it's extremely one dimensional. You are just spamming 3-4 of everything in each slot with absolutely no variation. That's OK for your troops choices, but as far as the rest goes it's pretty unimaginative and will likely see you lose badly.

I think you really need to decide what sort of list you want to field before I can provide any more direct advice. If you want to field a gun-line list you should perhaps invest in some armor like Rifleman Dreadnoughts and Predators or Vindicators. Mechanizing the list would also be a viable option, in which case you should mount up your Tactical Squads in Rhinos for mobility and objective contesting. I'd also just take a single unit of Sternguard and either a pair of Rifleman Dreadnoughts, or perhaps some Assault Terminators in a Land Raider. If you want something more designed to get in your opponents face, try a few Land Speeders with Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers, then mount up your Sternguard in a Drop Pod and take a pair of Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods with Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers. Mount the Tactical Squads in Rhinos and swap out the Devistators for either Predators or Vindicators.

Once you choose a style of list I can make some specific suggestions and possibly offer up some sample lists if you'd like, but I definitely think you need to re-think your strategy with this design because I feel you will get crushed by anything with some half decent long-ranged firepower (Imperial Guard, for instance).

wow, someone just marched down off mt. consternation. Sheesh, lol.

Anyways, I don't know if you've encountered the Imperial Guard lately, but they have the nasty tendency, along with a unit called longfangs which i'm sure you ARE aware of, of blowing the living hell out of the typically overpriced, underarmoured, underpowered mech of the vanilla codex space marine. The vindicators and Ironclad dreadnoughts I agree are all kinds of awesome... and I'd be all over them. IF... IF I didn't ALWAYS have damn Vendettas coming from my sides to take out my rear/side armor with their thrice-damned twin-linked lascannons and scores of vets melta-ing the hell out of them at point-blank incessantly.

manticore= carpet bombing on vehicles , but at least a 3+ save for the marines

Anyways, the idea of this list was to give me a lot of scoring units and plenty of ranged fire at low costs which can double (due to its numbers) as as both anti-troop, anti-armor, and anti-monstrous creature/spam calv.

i've used these low-number units to strategic ends multiple times with a great deal of success actually, but anyways I rather thought I'd get more comments on gear allocation than anything which was where I felt somewhat hesitant.

I gave combi-plasmas to the sternguard sergeants as last ditch defensive measures and power swords to all 4 Tac sergeants as part of an offensive skirmisher initiative.

I thought about giving the tac sgts. melta bombs rather than handing out the aforementioned combi-plasmas and was wondering about any thoughts on that or if in fact I should keep combi-weapons on the sergeants but make them combi-meltas in case of DS-ing dreadnoughts, Landraiders (Blood Angels), etc..

The Dragon wrote:well, the title pretty much said it all... well I suppose DoM would still suck bad for me, but i digress...

Codex: Space Marine Army listing:
Cost Advantage 2000pt
HQ
Librarian Terminator Armour and Storm Shield;
powers: Null Zone, Might of the Ancients
good
TROOP x 4
Tactical Squad 10 men + Flamer t+ Lascannon + Sergeant Power Sword w/ Bolt Pistol
id give the sgt a combi melta and pfist also get rhinos
HEAVY SUPPORT x 3
Devastator Squad 5 men + 2 Missile Launchers + Sergeant Chain Sword w/ Bolt Pistol
4 ML please not 2
ELITE x 3
Sternguard Veterans Squad 5 men + 2 Missile Launchers + Sergeant combi-plasma w/ Bolt Pistol
way to use sternguard wrong take 1 unit of 7 all with combi meltas or combi plas or a mix w.e floats your landspeeder
FAST ATTACK x 3
Attack Bike Squad 2 bikes with multi-meltas, twin-linked bolters
bleh bikes. id take a unit of TH/SS termies instead

See, I appreciate the response, but I respectfully disagree since what you're suggesting is the "eggs-in-one-basket" approach of SM.. an approach which has been repeatedly curb-stomped the world round.

As for the terminators, yes I have them and I would love to use them, but I need the differential fire from the sternguards' missiles more than I need the god-shields.

In the case that I do come across some bad nastiness i'm counting on null-zone to amp the killy-ness of the tac squad power swords by making what does wound hurt more, even with invul saves. Past that... well, damn. I've GOT 70 marines on table! They can do some foot slogging and basic-punching. The sternguard, especially, are also good in that regard as they get more attacks on the charge since they're all sergeant stats. Mind you, I'd always rather have them shoot, but if needs be......

This list isnt nearly as good as you think it is. You some how manage to take units but not actually increase the firepower you bring. But since it looks like your not actually looking for critisim I'm not going to give any.

The Dragon wrote:
Anyways, I don't know if you've encountered the Imperial Guard lately, but they have the nasty tendency, along with a unit called longfangs which i'm sure you ARE aware of, of blowing the living hell out of the typically overpriced, underarmoured, underpowered mech of the vanilla codex space marine. The vindicators and Ironclad dreadnoughts I agree are all kinds of awesome... and I'd be all over them. IF... IF I didn't ALWAYS have damn Vendettas coming from my sides to take out my rear/side armor with their thrice-damned twin-linked lascannons and scores of vets melta-ing the hell out of them at point-blank incessantly.

No amount of gear allocation is going to fix this list, it doesn't need a few tweaks it needs a new design philosophy. Space marines without mech are essentially necrons without we'll be back or a monolith. I'm also gonna go ahead and call shenanigans on that comment above I refuse to believe you really own a bunch of tanks and are just not using them in favor of spamming power armor like it was 4th edition. If you played all mech space marines before you wouldn't be saying that. I play all mech space marines and I can compete just fine against the things you mentioned but i couldn't think of any way to not get tabled by a competent SW/IG army playing your list even my vanilla space marines list would table this list.

Its like you decided since some armies have good anti-tank (which is there so they can eventually kill your infantry) that you are going to do half of the other armies job for them and go strait to letting them kill your infantry. My vanilla sm list has wiped out multiple 10 man MEQ squads in a single turn of shooting and IG/SW can do it even faster. Most armies have ways to either ignore your armor or wound you so many times your rolling 2 or 3 dice a marine. I dont get it if mech is awesome for IG and SW why would it suck for SM.

You have very little anti-tank, you have no mobility other than your fast attack can be instant killed before it does anything with only two shots a squad, you have no anti-hoard and no defense against CC heavy lists. Every decent army and even bad ones are awesome at killing infantry DoM is the least of your worries your going to have trouble with any decent list in any mission. I know your not taking to kindly to anyone elses criticism but i think you should at least proxy a bunch of tanks before you write them off completely.

If you want to do hordes of power armor, run sisters of battle instead. 11 points per model vs 15ish... 2 special weapons per squad, faith, and some decent wargear and rules. It certainly would fair better than this train wreck.

Lascannons in squads with flamers? I assume you are combat squading? How likely is a 5 man unit with a flamer going to be in the right place to use it, if it doesn't have transport?

devastators that only have the fire power of a LS typhoon?

Sternguard that are trying to be devastators?

Might of the ancients on a termie librarian with no other assault elements or delivery system?

squadrons of attack bikes just begging to be fired at by multiple missile launcher units that are so common? Those units are just begging to get instant deathed by S8+

Not enough firepower, not enough mobility.

cromwest wrote:
No amount of gear allocation is going to fix this list, it doesn't need a few tweaks it needs a new design philosophy. Space marines without mech are essentially necrons without we'll be back or a monolith. I'm also gonna go ahead and call shenanigans on that comment above I refuse to believe you really own a bunch of tanks and are just not using them in favor of spamming power armor like it was 4th edition. If you played all mech space marines before you wouldn't be saying that. I play all mech space marines and I can compete just fine against the things you mentioned but i couldn't think of any way to not get tabled by a competent SW/IG army playing your list even my vanilla space marines list would table this list.

Its like you decided since some armies have good anti-tank (which is there so they can eventually kill your infantry) that you are going to do half of the other armies job for them and go strait to letting them kill your infantry. My vanilla sm list has wiped out multiple 10 man MEQ squads in a single turn of shooting and IG/SW can do it even faster. Most armies have ways to either ignore your armor or wound you so many times your rolling 2 or 3 dice a marine. I dont get it if mech is awesome for IG and SW why would it suck for SM.

You have very little anti-tank, you have no mobility other than your fast attack can be instant killed before it does anything with only two shots a squad, you have no anti-hoard and no defense against CC heavy lists. Every decent army and even bad ones are awesome at killing infantry DoM is the least of your worries your going to have trouble with any decent list in any mission. I know your not taking to kindly to anyone elses criticism but i think you should at least proxy a bunch of tanks before you write them off completely.

*Golf Clap*

Could not have said it better myself. Sometimes it takes a person getting ground into the dust over and over before they realize their idea of a solid list brings new meaning to the term "Take-All-Comers". (Yes that was a bad sexual pun. What, wanna fight about it?)

wow, i guess i just don't know what to say to a lot of the comments, except that maybe you guys use almost no area terrain or what.. or maybe you're just used to playing idiots?

no antitank?
what part of 12 missile launchers, 6 Multi-meltas, and 4 lascannons wasn't obvious in that?

the bikes gettign shot to hell instantly?
have you guys never thought position them behind cover?
or maybe have them behind a line of troops you don't care about?

How about threading lines of troops to produce 4+ cover saves?etc...

Yes, there are lots of weakness to open troops shootingwise but the 5th edition cover rules are exceptionally generous if you play by the book and have a keen awareness of unit movement and the terrain.

Have you guys never heard of distractions either? that's what attack bikes can be. not too many people will ignore those strafing their sides or even if they just make it long enough to turbo boost inside the enemy endzone so to speak.

I guess you guys are pretty centered on the mech approach to vanilla codex spacemarines to the exclusion of all other possible avenues. BTW, I have played extensively with 1500-2000 pt Salamader armies using dreadnoughts, skimmers, rhinos, pods sternguard in their massive combi-melta config, etc... and played damn well and won many a game with them. I also love playing triple vindis with lots of fast attack support and pod-drop terror to boot.

BUT, I've seen how a lot of that has lost efficacy in light of the imp guard, nid, and bloodangel reserves strategies as well as space wolf defensive toughness (the dang calvalry).

I regularly play against guys ranked from around 45+ in the nation. Not THE best, but a damn sight better and harder to handle than most and have seen a lot of these conventional delivery methods and weapons packages crumple like a toyota dropped in front of a train.

I'm not even saying my list is the end all be all at all, I think I'm likely to trim a sternguard or troop for more assault after all, but at the same time I don't think spamming the same vanilla flavored tactics you guys are offering is a solution to the emergent armies either... or if it is... it's the losing one.

Your bikes aren't a distraction they are literally the only threat in your list which makes them an obvious target which makes them dead fast. I would pray for an opponent to hide bikes behind space marines. If your marines move they can't fire their heavies and if your bikes are behind them their only moving 6 inches. Your tactics don't make any sense at all.

Drop pods and vindicators didn't get worse when other books got released they were never that good to begin with. A solid vanilla marine mech list will do fine against other solid lists. I don't care what rank under what rank system your opponents are if they cant deal with your list that has nothing going for it they don't deserve their rank at all.

Guard and the different space marine books can easily remove targets from cover. 4+ cover save isn't that big of a deal and they will be forcing leadership tests on most of your units every turn till you are tabled. They WILL maneuver till you cant get your cover saves any more and are looking right at you. If you try to counter by moving you cant fire your heavy weapons. The tyranids will just run up and eat you while you do almost nothing to thin out their hoard before they show up.

Where is this army that crumples a crap load of tanks like a Toyota in front of a train because it should be dominating the meta game unlike the crap load of tanks that currently are. Codex: Space Marines is still one of the best books in the game. I don't think many people are complaining they are underpowered. They are overlooked in favor of the flashier new books but they are far from underpowered.

This is an example of a space marines list that I commonly use that I think has no problem with the armies you mentioned and will beat your list most games.

2000 pts

HQ
Librarian- null zone, avenger

Troops
5 Space Marines with Las/plas razorback w/ hunter killer X4

Elites
Dreadnought with 2 twin-linked auto-cannons X3

Fast attack
2 Land speeder typhoons X3

Heavy support
HB/AC predator w/ hunter killer X3

Thats 4 lascannons 4 plasma guns, 7 hunter killer missles, 18 auto-cannons, 12 missle launchers, 12 heavy bolters
with the addition of 6 AV 10, 4 av 11, 3 av 12, 3 AV 13
Everything can fire and move and maneuver to prevent you from getting cover saves and tank shock/blow you off objectives
Most things ignore your armor, half of it is twin linked and much of it instant kills your bikes

vs your

12 missile launchers, 6 Multi-meltas, and 4 lascannon
no armor
you have a 6 inch move and cant fire at me if you use it
fast attack that will have to advance BY IT SELF to do anything to me
if you think my army cant take out 6 attack bikes just roll some dice by your self and give your self a 3+ cover

I must say, I think you guys are being a little harsh.

Yes his list holds up like a wet paper bag once some serious cc threats hit him, which basically means hes going to get pasted by Thunderwolves, or Nob Bikers, or Eldar Seer Councils, or anything that can reach his lines quickly.

Further it looks like he'll likely get out shot by guard any day of the week (those leman russ battle tanks are going to be painful for everything in his list)

However strictly speaking his list isn't awful at fighting razor spam EQs.

Taking crom's list for example. Yes, crom, you do have more heavy weapons then him, but you need to look at the platforms as well.

Shaken / stunned stops most of your stuff from shooting, and the only things that can ignore his armor saves are the razors and the land speeders (neither of which are known for thier awesome survivability).

Every one of his heavy weapons, on the other hand, is buffered by 3+ armor saves.

I'm not saying anything about who would win, merely that I'm not certain it would be the curb stomp everybody is predicting.

Footslogging Sternguard with missile launchers makes my eyes bleed :(

In ideal circumstances he has only 10 units that can hit me for 2 turns while my entire FOC can hit him back. Not all of them will hit those that do not all of them will pen and of those pens not all of them will prevent that unit from shooting and if it does prevent me from shooting I will likely be able to use that time to move 12 inches and get into a better firing position or at least pop smoke and live to fire another turn. You may think that the razors and speeders are easy to pop but cover works both ways and I screen my soft targets with the dreads and the preds and use the terrain to my advantage so I regularly move to spots where I can shoot at specific targets without taking too much return fire.

That is only if he doesn't move and concentrates all his firepower on me. If he does that the most he is going to do is destroy/injure 2 or 3 tanks and has lost 2 turns of movement and all of his FA unless he hides it which means its not doing anything. Also while every pen/glance is likely a turn of me not shooting with that particular unit every time I do similar amounts of damage back to him he is at serious risk of running off the board. If hes not in range to fall off then that means he hasn't been shooting at me.

I'm not saying my list will curb stomp anyone. Its not designed to do that its designed to win which means i need just one more kill point or non-contested objective than the other guy. The thing more often than not that gives me that extra objective/kill point isn't my guns its my mobility of which he has almost none.

The reason I am being harsh is that his list puts him in a loose/loose situation since he is relying on a bunch of units with 6 inch moves that have to choose between shooting and moving. This will always put him at a serious disadvantage against a list with mobility and all he can do is shoot and hope for above average dice rolls to do enough damage early so that he can focus on taking objectives later. The gunline is pretty much dead in 5th ed if you can't move around and still threaten your opponent many armies are going to run circles around you and there is no reason a SM list has to be like that when they have some of most mobile troops in the game when they take transports or bike captains.

Also his thread title doesn't help when it comes to harsh responses. When claiming to be designing a list to be "anti-everything except for Lash" we assume he is designing a strong all-comers list, which I feel has not been accomplished.

Now I'm not a huge fan of Razorspam, but the list Cromwest posted is a vast improvement over this static list and has much more mobility and ranged firepower on the move.

None of that matters though if the OP doesn't want to hear our advice. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink, and in this case we have said our peace and given the advice we think would greatly improve the survivability and firepower of this list, but we have been met with resistance the whole way, so why should we argue it further. The OP has his opinions of what works, and perhaps they do in his local meta, but I can say that most strong all-comers lists that I see would have very little trouble with this one.

Either way, I think I've said all I care to say here.