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So here's my question.

So you have mechanicus, whom want to recover lost tech.

Horus comes along, says hey, you come help me i'll give you some lost tech, mech. agrees.

All in a sudden Dark Mech abandon the machine god and start plastering meat to their machines and making half chaos things.
... anyone else seeing the big hole in the logic?

I think the point is that they got corrupted by scrapcode from the Vaults of Moravec as laid out in Mechanicus. Not so much "hey, just realized spikes are kinda nice!"

Edit: Presumably they could also be corrupted by other deus ex machinas. We are talking about a universe in which the Emperor's most favored son and a good guy almost overnight decided to become a murderer of entire planets, right...?

Moving thread to 40K Background forum.

Grundz wrote:So here's my question.

So you have mechanicus, whom want to recover lost tech.

Horus comes along, says hey, you come help me i'll give you some lost tech, mech. agrees.

All in a sudden Dark Mech abandon the machine god and start plastering meat to their machines and making half chaos things.
... anyone else seeing the big hole in the logic?

Plastering meat to what exactly?

The 'dark mechanicus', does merge tech and warp.

But did they invent much?
A few walkers you say?
Did they recover lost tech?
Still those chaos followers can't use what loyalists have?

The mechanicum seems not jealous of their efforts.

The turncoats of the heresy were conservatives and hated creativity and invention. And they got their standstill....
Maybe logic and chaos are incompatible so joining the dark side got them old mouldy cookies and thats all.

Generally, logic needs order. So guess the common counterpart of order is: ?
Just saying..

You ( the op ) oversimplify when describing the dark mechanicus. Those that sided with horus were after power or their own agendas. Or were unwittingly led into betrayal. As with the chaos legions the dark mechanicus are perversions of their imperial counterparts. Sometimes paradoxical in their own nature. And the dark mechanicus are just this. With algorithms and scrap code that defy ordered science and harness energies most sane races would never dare to try and use. And this didnt happen all of a sudden. With the space marines as example. I can imagine the traitors amongst the mechanicum didn't realize just what they'd bought into until horus was defeated. Those who would rather have any chance of revenge fleeing to the eye of terror and pledging allegiance to chaos fully to stand a chance of fighting back against the imperium.

Now, I love the dark Mechanicum, really I do (infact I might be starting an army of them soon). I can believe them siding with horus-after all, it never actually mentions them giving up the machine god in Mechanicum. I can even believe the whole Flesh machine chaos thing they've got going on, as no one knows what they found in the vaults of Moravec, perhaps they found it more effective. the one thing that bothers me is the name-'Dark' Mechanicus. Seriously, you call yourselves Dark? It makes them sound like one of those crappy budget film villains who thinks they're evil.

As far as I know, they still worship the machine god. They just do it in a... chaos-y manner.

Well the dark mechanicum believe they are doing what the adepts of mars refuse to do and they feel that they worship the Ominissah more completely... i could be wrong or that is just one side cult of the dark mechanicus.

Grundz wrote:So here's my question.

So you have mechanicus, whom want to recover lost tech.

Horus comes along, says hey, you come help me i'll give you some lost tech, mech. agrees.

All in a sudden Dark Mech abandon the machine god and start plastering meat to their machines and making half chaos things.
... anyone else seeing the big hole in the logic?

I'm not sure that I follow you. To my understanding, the scenario you lay out (admittedly intentionally short-hand), isn't correct. My understanding, which is both probably incomplete and probably incorrect, and definitely simplified, is more like the following:

The Mechanicus, prior to the Emperor, worshipped the Machine God, who embodied perfect knowledge. To some of the Mech., this was to be understood as a literal being, while others peacefully disagreed and understood the Machine God as a metaphor for the perfect and complete knowledge for which they were striving.

At one point prior to the arrival of the Emperor, the Mechanicus and Mars have their own separate government and rule independent of Terra.

At the arrival of the Emperor on Mars, the Mechanicus (as a whole), embraced the idea that the Emperor was the Machine God incarnate (the Omnissiah), as he fulfilled prophecy, healed machines with a touch, and displayed his overwhelming knowledge. Thus they transfer their dedication, loyalty, and alliegance to him.

However, there remained Mechanicus faithful who did NOT believe that the Emperor was indeed the Machine God. Some of these Mechanicus may remain today within the cult, simply not advertising their beliefs when divergent, similar to faithful who do not share all the doctrinal views of their neighbors.

However, there did exist Adeptus Mechanicus who, since they did not believe that the Emperor was actually the Machine God, did not see any particular reason to obey him. If you were one of these AdMech, then the Emperor was, to your view, lying to you deliberately, since he knew he was not the Machine God, and yet allowed this falsehood and false worship to continue. In addition, he would issue edicts (such as those forbidding the creation of purely machine intelligences, and those forbidding research and technology involving warpcraft), which such an AdMech would also view as invalid, since a "false god", instead of the actual Machine God, was issuing them. Futhermore, your independent government has become subordinated to him under such deception.

It seems quite reasonable for such members of the Adeptus Mechanicus to consider throwing in with Horus. They agree with him that the Emperor has deceived them. They agree with him that the Emperor has issued orders which are unreasonable to follow. They agree with him that Chaos is a real and available force for them to study, utilize, and master. They may agree with him that the Imperium as arranged is unsuitably ruled and organized.

Futhermore, since many of the AdMech view human emotions, reactions, and the like as primitive, atavistic responses best controlled, or even eliminated through surgery, the notion of being a "horrific monstrosity" or a "moral aberration" smacks of a superstitious response. Chaos simply IS, like light or gravity, and is no more evil than evaporation is.

Hear Hear! Basically summed up exactly what I wanted to say about the subject. To those who know the Emperor is a false god, joining Horus against the Emperor is perfectly logical.

The problem, then, is that they don't accept future jesus with a laser gun. And so, provide those who fight against him as well with good weaponry.

How exactly is that a problem?

Using the Future-Jesus allegory; There are still Jewish People(in fact they just had their new year a week ago). Their belief is that Jesus was not the son of God; no the Elisha(Messiah that they are waiting for), and as such remained loyal to their original beliefs, tried Jesus for heresy and gave him over to the Romans to be punished for High Treason(Jesus was in Roman controlled terretory and had an "army" of followers with him, which the Romans saw as raising an army against Rome; a High Treason offense for which the punishment was crucifixion).

The Dark mechanicus did exactly the same thing(only they failed spectacularly); They were adherents to the Old Faith, not believing the Emperor was the Omnisiah; and so when Horus started his Heresy the DM through in their hat to try and rid their faith of what they believed to be a false omnisiah.

Are you suggesting that Jews are aligned to Horus?

I think he's saying there's big similarities between the stories.
40k does, after all, use many thing from real life in its history.

Also, it wasn't the same thing as the rebel mechs were in the right (as the emperor was not the machine God) and it was the opposite in real life (depending on your views, of course).

Oh and...

Elisha(Messiah that they are waiting for)

was Elijah*

Brad.

Henners91 wrote:Are you suggesting that Jews are aligned to Horus?

Yeah; my mom is totally aligned with Horus

I was just drawing on the similarities between the 2 Groups; regular Ad-Mech would be Christians and Dark Mech would be the Jews using the allegory of Future-Jesus with a Laser gun that abaddon=gargamel presented. The Dark mech followed the faith as it was(but then got turned to Chaos by the heresy), and the regular Ad-Mech altered their beliefs with the Emperor being their long-awaited omnissiah. Also I was showing a real-life factioning of 2 Faiths from 1 source; the Jews are Traditionalists with an unaltered book that they read from and use for worship; and Christians are a new faith that revise their book whenever they feel like it, and added a new section to the old one(The Bible has had some significant changes to it in my lifetime; the biggest being a story in Exodus: the parting of the red sea)

Bradskey: hebrew to english spelling is not an exact science; look at how many ways there are to spell Yahweh/Jehova.

I'm not willing to spend any more time on this subject lest i (and/or this thread) get struck down by the mod-quisition(as we are technically breaking forum rules)

Henners91 wrote:Are you suggesting that Jews are aligned to Horus?

YES... At least I did.

To my understanding, admech accepted the emperor as a sort of living saint of the machine god, not /the/ machine god, and still exist as a seperate entity to the imperium, though allied to it.
There's a ton of fuzzyness around the void dragon ctan nonsense and admech though.

I suggest reading of the Mechanicum and Titanicus novels for more info on all this.

Working my way through Titanicus now, and the "old Faith" idea is obvious.

Also, I'm about 90% sure that when the Void Dragon surfaces, the rest of the Mechanicum is going to turn away from the Emperor, believing (for reals this time) that the Void Dragon is the Omnissiah. This will cause them to become a separate faction, which will allow Games Workshop to bring in EVEN MORE CASH with a new codex and more units. This twist in faith will cause the super christians to start protesting against 40k, for the belief that 40k teaches kids to turn away from religion and worship false gods. This will cause them to secede from the US and form the nation of the Confederate States of America. This will lead to a nuclear war in the US, which will end up going worldwide and destroying GW, and then everyone will have a panic, launch all of their missiles and warheads, and ICBMs, which will cause a nuclear fallout. Humanity will start living underground. This will all happen in 2015. Then, after this, humanity will start living underground. 38,000 or so years later, humanity will resurface, with a man only known to most as the Emperor of Man, and his superhuman warriors, at the head of the race. The rest, as they say, is canon. Yes, I am Kairos Fateweaver in disguise.