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Main opponents are Blood Angels and Necrons....

Lysander - 200
Assault Terminators - TH/SS - 200
Land Raider Crusader - Multi Melta - 260

Tactical Squad - Flamer/ Missile Launcher/ Combi-Melta/ Melta Bombs
Razorback - Heavy Bolter- Dozer - 220

Tactical Squad - Flamer/ Missile Launcher/ Combi-Melta/ Melta Bombs
Razorback - Heavy Bolter- Dozer - 220

Vindicator - Siege Shield - 125

Vindicator - Siege Sheild - 125

Landspeeder - Multi Melta/ Heavy Flamer - 70

Landspeeder - Multi Melta/ Heavy Flamer - 70

Total: 1490

Pretty solid list but your tac squads are wierd. why take a flamer as the special weapon and then a combi-melta? Now you have 2 ineffective weapons for more points? Doubl;e up the special weapons in each squad so melta with combi-melta and flamer with combi-flamer then those squads are actually a threat to something.

Also the missile launcher with frag grenades will often do as much damage to infantry as the Heavy bolter and gets you the advantage of being able to use Krak grenades as well. A much better option all round.

I'd dump the dozer blades to make the changes I've suggested they really will do very little for you.

Otherwise:

Lysander in Hammernator Death star - Good.

Vindicator in pairs - excellent (especially considering opponents).

Landspeeders in squads of 1 and with HF/MM again good choice.

Streamline your tac squads and you have a really effective army.

Are the BA jump pack oriented? Because if they are, suicide melta squads could give you some trouble jumping behind the tanks and killing them as they land. Could possibly kill off the LR that way too.

Not saying the list is bad, though i do not really like rock armies, but imho its something to think about / plan for.

Thanks for the advice guys, so I took the advice on the combi's and switched the melta for a flamer think it fits better fluff wise. For jcd no my opponent fields razorback spam, though im looking more for a balanced forceI will defiently keep that in mind.

Lysander - 200
Assault Terminators - TH/SS - 200
Land Raider Crusader - Multi Melta - 260

Tactical Squad - Flamer/ Missile Launcher/ Combi-Flamer/ Melta Bombs
Razorback - Heavy Bolter- Dozer - 220

Tactical Squad - Flamer/ Missile Launcher/ Combi-Flamer/ Melta Bombs
Razorback - Heavy Bolter- Dozer - 220

Vindicator - Siege Shield - 125

Vindicator - Siege Sheild - 125

Landspeeder - Multi Melta/ Heavy Flamer - 70

Landspeeder - Multi Melta/ Heavy Flamer - 70

Total: 1490

Also would it maybe be worth dumping the razorbacks for rhino's, this way I could spring the flamers from inside the rhino?

If he's going Razorback spam what is the thinking behind not taking the Meltas? You have the points to swap both squads for duel melta.

Also if that is his game you might find a Godhammer a better fit than the Crusader so you can pop those Razorbacks earlier.

Well the main reason for the flamers is I figured why pay for an extra weapon when its trapped in a razorback without firing ports. Also from a fluff stand point as a Siege Company I figured flamers would be far more effective in this kind of scenario then a single shot melta. The godhammer was what I had originally planned on, I think I will go back to that... though I really like the redeemer and crusader models.

It's only 5 points differnce (per squad) and you can then easily pop those transports that form the backbone of his army.

Ottherwise you have precisly 3 weapons that are any sort of threat to him and 2 of those reside on AV10 vehicles...

Combi flamers are a rip off.

List looks alright. Don't need siege shields btw and Tactical Terminators go better with Lysander so can use bolter drill, though Tactical Terminators aren't as good but at least benefit from Lysander.

Lysander - 200
Assault Terminators - TH/SS - 200
Land Raider - Multi Melta - 260

Tactical Squad - Melta/ Missile Launcher/ Combi-Melta/ Melta Bombs
Razorback - Heavy Bolter- Dozer - 225

Tactical Squad - Melta/ Missile Launcher/ Combi-Melta/ Melta Bombs
Razorback - Heavy Bolter- Dozer - 225

Vindicator - Siege Shield - 125

Vindicator - Siege Sheild - 125

Landspeeder - Multi Melta/ Heavy Flamer - 70

Landspeeder - Multi Melta/ Heavy Flamer - 70

Total: 1500

Ditch doze blades and siege shields upgrade Razorbacks to twin-las or las/plas giving you a lot more ranged fire power. Will be pretty damn cool list then. Currently you have two ranged weapons, rest is close range blasts or melta - the extra punch from the las' will help you and those dozer blades and siege shields aren't always a massive help.

Though, personally, I'd ditch Lysander and go Librarian with nullzone as better benefit.

Thanks for the advice, I would love some more las love but at 35 a pop on each razor back I just don't have the points, even with ditching the dozer and siege shields I'm short by five points. I do have two other missile launchers acting to disrupt from range.

I love librarians to as a daemon player I fear null zone but lysander sadly is needed to make my army an imperial fist army.... and not ultramarines painted yellow.

Lysnader isn't needed to make Imperial Fists, he's just a I.F character. I play Fists and mine are painted yellow. It's really the colour of the army you like, though I try to stick to how the army plays i.e hard hitting defence/siege style.

If you get Librarian wiht storm shield you can get those lascannons. I would give it a try, might be worth it. After all Lysander for 200 points is just making your army stubborn.....

Ya fluff wise I just think stubborn sticks as more of an IF trait, then Combat Tactics. Though Combat Tactics could work out well when my friend gets his Furioso Dreads(with the extra las cannons that shouldn't happen) with Blood Talons into combat, if the squad survives that is.

Ill give the Librarian a go, just use the Lysander model for now. Thanks for the assistance.

Mercer is as usual correct that you should go melta or get more lascannons.

However don't underestimate how much of a beat stick Lysander is. He doesn't just make your army worse as Mercer claims (by giving them stubborn which is no where near as useful as combat tactics). He's pretty much the best beat stick in the codex (alongside Calgar). Nullzone will help you against Certain opponents but with 4s to hit you can still fail long before it becomes useful. A Chaplain would probably be more reliable (unless you need the psychic defence), but also has limitations. In a grind fest against his best units (i.e. blood talon dreads) you'd be far happier with Lysander.

Don't drop the Siege Shields. I don't know why people are always suggesting that... Granted I usually only upgrade to Siege with left over points. But Siege Shields can make a world of difference in the mobility of your Vindicators. Either make it easier for them to move in and get a shot, or set up a blocking line for squishier vehicles.

But if you do drop them, take Dozer Blades on the Vindicators.

People drop them because they are a waste of 5 pts. Dozerblades are just as good really. 1 in 36 is not exactly bad odds

Bleednomore wrote:Ya fluff wise I just think stubborn sticks as more of an IF trait, then Combat Tactics. Though Combat Tactics could work out well when my friend gets his Furioso Dreads(with the extra las cannons that shouldn't happen) with Blood Talons into combat, if the squad survives that is.

Ill give the Librarian a go, just use the Lysander model for now. Thanks for the assistance.

Give it a go and see how it rolls. You might like it and then you might not, but definately you get more anti tank without a doubt, and you need it

FlingitNow wrote:Mercer is as usual correct that you should go melta or get more lascannons.

However don't underestimate how much of a beat stick Lysander is. He doesn't just make your army worse as Mercer claims (by giving them stubborn which is no where near as useful as combat tactics). He's pretty much the best beat stick in the codex (alongside Calgar). Nullzone will help you against Certain opponents but with 4s to hit you can still fail long before it becomes useful. A Chaplain would probably be more reliable (unless you need the psychic defence), but also has limitations. In a grind fest against his best units (i.e. blood talon dreads) you'd be far happier with Lysander.

I didn't say makes the army worse What I'm saying is for 200 points not exactly the best HQ. He makes the army stubborn which is cool, however his other ability bolter drill isn't being used. If you look at his profile it's the same as a Captain just with a S10 thunderhammer so not exactly a "beat stick". If you take a Librarian and Chaplain naked you can get both those HQ choices for 200 points, same points as Lysander!

Kilgore19d wrote:Don't drop the Siege Shields. I don't know why people are always suggesting that... Granted I usually only upgrade to Siege with left over points. But Siege Shields can make a world of difference in the mobility of your Vindicators. Either make it easier for them to move in and get a shot, or set up a blocking line for squishier vehicles.

But if you do drop them, take Dozer Blades on the Vindicators.

tedurur wrote:People drop them because they are a waste of 5 pts. Dozerblades are just as good really. 1 in 36 is not exactly bad odds

As Tedurur said, there's not much need for them plus points can be injected into areas what need them.

Not saying that Lysander is the best IC, but Lysander does not have the same profile as a Captain...he has four wounds and EW. Thats quite a difference. He also has Bolster defence which can be useful.

Ok extra wound and EW. EW is a special rule and apart from extra wound same profile as a Captain, wooopie doo.

Well I tested the list yesterday against my friends Blood Angels with the changes you suggested Mercer. I defiantly over-estimated the anti tank I had before, with the added lascannons he was stripped of everything that could possibly hurt my armor in one shooting phase, and the rest of his armor in two. Sadly I never did get to use null-zone as his captain and squad got squished by a vindicator pie plate. In all after totally tabling his army I think I lost a 5 man combat squad and he immobilized one razorback and landspeeder. Cheers

Librarian - Terminator Armour - Storm Shield - Null-Zone/Smite - 140
Terminator Assault Squad - TH/SS - 200
Land Raider - Multi Melta (never even shot this so may drop for dozers on the vindicators) - 260

Tactical Squad - Melta - Missile Launcher - Combi-Melta - Melta Bombs - 265
Razorback - Twin Link Lascannon

Tactical Squad - Melta - Missile Launcher - Combi-Melta - Melta Bombs - 265
Razorback - Twin Link Lascannon

Landspeeder - Multi-Melta - Heavy Flamer - 115

Landspeeder - Multi-Melta - Heavy Flamer - 115

Vindicator - 115

Vindicator - 115

Total: 1500

Excellent mate! Told you on the anti tank, though my point isn't to gloat but to help - glad you did well!

List looks a killer I wouldn't mind playing that if we was closer. Very nice.

Oh, Land Raider should be a Crusader and keep the multi melta Ditch melta bombs for dozer blades if you want them so badly.

No offence... but from your side of the story, it sounds like your friend doesn't know how to play very well and/or construct a good BA list.

I do like your new list a lot more though.

He is new to Blood Angels, but in his defense his list has been tailored to take on my Daemons which it has done effectively. But it also means he has concentrated on amass anti infantry fire versus anti armor. Secondly his dice rolls kind of went against him as well.... when your rolling ones for dangerous terrain tests and to hit it doesn't help.

mercer wrote:Ok extra wound and EW. EW is a special rule and apart from extra wound same profile as a Captain, wooopie doo.

So what if EW is a special rule? By that logic Vulkan is no better than a Captain.

Excellent mate! Told you on the anti tank, though my point isn't to gloat but to help - glad you did well!

Yeah as I said Mercer was spot on on the AT.

However that pieplate wouldn't have killed Lysander...

He makes the army stubborn which is cool, however his other ability bolter drill isn't being used. If you look at his profile it's the same as a Captain just with a S10 thunderhammer so not exactly a "beat stick". If you take a Librarian and Chaplain naked you can get both those HQ choices for 200 points, same points as Lysander!

How is making your army worse cool? By making them stubborn you are weakening the army. He has two other special abilities bolster defences (which I do often forget about) and the so so bolter drill. No one in their right mind pays 200pts + stubborn in order to get bolter drill (it appears you value bolter drill at about 215 points).

A Terminator Captain with TH/SS is 170 points. People pay 30 points + stubborn for an extra wound, ET and an S10 AP1 Thunderhammer and that is very good value. Then Boltser defences is a bonus on top, sure you have to take stubborn which sucks but for that CC monster it is worth it.

Yes the vanilla Libby and Chaplain are also good value. But that pie plate would have killed both where as Lysander would have laughed it off. Also both can be singled out in CC and killed fairly easily. 3 PF hits would be enough to kill both where as it on average would only do 1 wound to Lysander... Nullzone and liturgies of battle would turn that Hammernator unit into a monster deathstar for 1 turn. Heck by the time the Hammernators strike in that first charge Nullzone and/or Liturgies could be gone. Lysander gives them more hitting power against more types of target (TWs, Soulgrinders, Ironclads etc) and hitting power that stays with them every turn...

So what if EW is a special rule? By that logic Vulkan is no better than a Captain.

Exactly.

tedurur wrote:

mercer wrote:Ok extra wound and EW. EW is a special rule and apart from extra wound same profile as a Captain, wooopie doo.

So what if EW is a special rule? By that logic Vulkan is no better than a Captain.

Vulkan makes meltas & flamers twin linked also hammers master crafted, that's a big difference to what Lysander does....

FlingitNow wrote:

He makes the army stubborn which is cool, however his other ability bolter drill isn't being used. If you look at his profile it's the same as a Captain just with a S10 thunderhammer so not exactly a "beat stick". If you take a Librarian and Chaplain naked you can get both those HQ choices for 200 points, same points as Lysander!

How is making your army worse cool? By making them stubborn you are weakening the army. He has two other special abilities bolster defences (which I do often forget about) and the so so bolter drill. No one in their right mind pays 200pts + stubborn in order to get bolter drill (it appears you value bolter drill at about 215 points).

A Terminator Captain with TH/SS is 170 points. People pay 30 points + stubborn for an extra wound, ET and an S10 AP1 Thunderhammer and that is very good value. Then Boltser defences is a bonus on top, sure you have to take stubborn which sucks but for that CC monster it is worth it.

Yes the vanilla Libby and Chaplain are also good value. But that pie plate would have killed both where as Lysander would have laughed it off. Also both can be singled out in CC and killed fairly easily. 3 PF hits would be enough to kill both where as it on average would only do 1 wound to Lysander... Nullzone and liturgies of battle would turn that Hammernator unit into a monster deathstar for 1 turn. Heck by the time the Hammernators strike in that first charge Nullzone and/or Liturgies could be gone. Lysander gives them more hitting power against more types of target (TWs, Soulgrinders, Ironclads etc) and hitting power that stays with them every turn...

No, it doesn't. It stops you from taking modified leadership tests and you don't have to take no retreat wounds...

I don't value bolter drill at 215 at all, not sure where you're getting that from..

Perhaps Lysander was on his last wound and failed his save? We don't know the in's and out's so best not speculate. Can't Lysander be singled out in c.c? Doesn't the Librarian have a 2+/3+ invulnerable like Lysander? Only difference is eternal warrior.

HOw can nullzone and Chaplain be gone first turn when inside a Land Raider? You live the Librarian inside.....

No, it doesn't. It stops you from taking modified leadership tests and you don't have to take no retreat wounds...

You still have to take no-retreat wounds just as normal. The times you are taking modified leaderships tests is CC. With LD9 a -1 isn't too much of a concern. -2 and -3 is where you really get the benefit from stubborn. But if you're losing combat by 3 you are most likely wanting to be out of it so stubborn forces you to stay there, combat tactics enables you to widthdraw. Also combat tactics prevents from people firing at you before they assault which is a nice boon too. So you have a choice:

a) You can widthdraw from losing combats easil;y and stop people from firing at you before they assault and generally have good control of your men and their LD.

OR

b) Have a marginal benefit in tight combats but get forced to stay in hopeless combats you can't win, whilst the enemy can now fire at you before assaulting.

Tough choice...

Perhaps Lysander was on his last wound and failed his save? We don't know the in's and out's so best not speculate. Can't Lysander be singled out in c.c? Doesn't the Librarian have a 2+/3+ invulnerable like Lysander? Only difference is eternal warrior.

ET and 2 wounds (ET making a big difference when you're being hit by a demolisher cannon, plus in your vanilla and vanilla scenario no the Libby wouldn't have a 2+/3++ save). For Lysander to be down to his last wound the Libby would have to be long gone. Yes Lysander can be singled out in combat but no he can not be easily killed when doing so (unlike the libby).

HOw can nullzone and Chaplain be gone first turn when inside a Land Raider? You live the Librarian inside.....

Not the first turn but the first round of combat when they charge in. Not convinced you can legally leave the libby inside when the squad leaves. But still the chappy could be gone before the Hammernators actually strike.

That is the advantage with Lysander you can literally grind through your opponents entire army with that unit as long as you take care of the things that can cause it issues with other units.

NO you don't with stubborn. You only take no retreat wounds when fearless, see P44 it's for units which auto pass tests - stubborn doesn't auto pass. You take no no retreat wounds at all. That's why it's cool for..

I know what combat tactics do and I know which one I'd rather have, however, you're stubborn thanks to Pedro and Lysander. You don't have combat tactics. Not sure why you're telling me about combat tactics for and then saying in another thread that stuborn sucks yet you're taking it!

Like I said, you're speculating about Lysander. The Librarian wouldn't be vanilla would he with a unit of Terminators?

You can legally leave the Librarian in the transport. Mate you need to check rules as you've got stubborn wrong about taking saves and you can leave I.C's in transports. I don't need to convince you at all.

No, the advantage with Lysander is he has S10 thunder hammer and eternal warrior. My point is he doesn't benefit the army (hardly) or the unit and costs 200 points for maginal benefits, which you think one (stubborn) sucks.

NO you don't with stubborn. You only take no retreat wounds when fearless, see P44 it's for units which auto pass tests - stubborn doesn't auto pass. You take no no retreat wounds at all. That's why it's cool for..

You only take no retreat wounds due to ATSKNF, you don't lose that special rule, stubborn has little impact on that. You don't take fearless wounds for combat tactics.

I know what combat tactics do and I know which one I'd rather have, however, you're stubborn thanks to Pedro and Lysander. You don't have combat tactics. Not sure why you're telling me about combat tactics for and then saying in another thread that stuborn sucks yet you're taking it!

I'm suffering it in order to get scoring Sternguard... Stubborn is not a benefit you are paying for with lysander. It is something you are suffering to get him.

Like I said, you're speculating about Lysander. The Librarian wouldn't be vanilla would he with a unit of Terminators?

I was using your own example of a Vanilla Libby, that was what you were saying you could take instead of Lysander and I was pointing out that it wasn't as rosey as you imagined...

You can legally leave the Librarian in the transport. Mate you need to check rules as you've got stubborn wrong about taking saves and you can leave I.C's in transports. I don't need to convince you at all.

Actually by RaW he can't because he HAS to leave the unit not the other way round. He is given permission to leave the unit by moving away. Staying in the LR is not moving hence he can not leave the unit this way and hence the unit cannot disembark and leave parts of it behind...

No, the advantage with Lysander is he has S10 thunder hammer and eternal warrior. My point is he doesn't benefit the army (hardly) or the unit and costs 200 points for maginal benefits, which you think one (stubborn) sucks.

I suppose you think Abaddon sucks because he doesn't benefit the CSM army at all, the Swarmlord is useless too, likewise the Doom of Malan'tai, Mephiston etc, etc , etc... Not all ICs have to boost the entire army, some are useful as powerful units in their own right. Lysander is a character in this category. Yes Vulkan and Pedro's abilities to boost the army are great but that doesn't mean every special character has to work this way to be effective.

Actually page 67 in the BRB disagrees with you regarding whether or not its allowed to leave an IC in a transport. It is in fact very much legal.