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When I fight 'Nids, he bumrushes me with a swarm of zoanthropes and a few MCs (hive tyrant, trygon, tervigon) etc.

The zoans can rush forward, nuking at 24" then blowing tanks up from 18" away. They have 2 wounds and a 3++ save so even a barrage of lascannons might kill 0-1 of them.

They cost 10 points more for 3 of them than a 3x plasma vet squad in chimera and they can popcorn a whole field of tanks.

He'll do something like run a tervigon next to them, giving the zoanthropes Feel No Pain to make sure small fire doesn't accomplish jack, and if I were to jump guardsmen on the zoeys, his big MC eats them.

I'm sure if I cram dozens of infantry squads into my corner they'd handle it, but when his 2 trygons and 1 ymgarl genestealer squad appear (assaults on turn it appears anywhere in cover.) then my footmen can't deal with S6 T6 W6 3+ save 7 attacks w/ rerolls + shooting, and a swarm of genestealers with 3 S5 attacks or 4 S4 attacks, either with rending. I gunned down the zoeys but had 6 monstrous creatures and 1 genestealer squad fencing in my zone from every side and not enough guns to handle 30 T6 wounds. (1750 game.)

What's the most cost-effective way of stopping zoeys from causing terror? If I waste an entire chimera squad and even 1 zooey survives, then they didn't earn their points back.

MCs are actually difficult for guard to deal with, especially the nastier of TMCs.

One way to handle it is plasma spam with "bring it down!". The problem with this is that you need at least two plasma squads to bring the creature down in a single go, and, given how close plasma needs to get, you really need to take it down in one go.

Another way is through vehicles, specifically the hydra or vendettas. The problem with vendettas is that they're only going to do a couple of wounds per turn of shooting. This means you need to have a couple with a couple of rounds of shooting. That your valkyries will survive that long is not a guarantee. The problem with hydras is that you need to SPAM them, which means that you can't have a whole lot else in your HS slots.

A third way is rough riders. Riders are great because a 10-rider squad can almost take one out in a single go. The problem, of course, is to make sure you get rid of any bubblewrap around them, which is really tricky in the case of tervagons.

A final way is with S3 SPAM. Yes, you need 6's to wound, but you can still wound them. 30 dudes FRFing from 12" lays down about half it's wounds, and if you can get it tarpitted into close combat with a power blob, you will eventually take it down.

I've had some luck with the Ogryn tying up the MC's, Sentinels flanking and engaging the ZT's in HtH after shooting... :-) But those are "odd" choices for an IG list... Heavy weapon squads with the "bring it down" order, etc... Pick a target and just keep pouring on the fire until it dies, then move on...

It's hard to get 30 lasgunners 12" away without being bunched up. 3 zoeys blasts took out like 8 guardsmen in one barrage, then the tervigon has an ordinance template and other MCs can too.

Also, if you blob 30-50 guardsmen, the tyrant can fly up and cast Paroxysm (6-12" move, 12" psychic power range), reducing the entire blob to WS1 BS1. 27 lasgunners with FRF and somehow every single one within 12" only does 81 shots and only causes 0.75 wounds on a hive tyrant.

0.75 wounds with 150 points of troopers. For 45 points I get one PW commissar, but with WS1 he only does 0.166 wounds per turn once the tyrant charges them (they rapid fired it so they can't charge.)
With Bring It Down instead, they do 0.87 wounds.
That's 30 guys bunched within 12" though... so on his turn if he fires a few ordinance/blast weapons, I could instantly lose all 30.

I considered ogryns, but they're just like inferior MCs. His get 7 re-rolled attacks, S6 T6 6 wounds I4, 3+ save, and often regeneration (if he's missing 4 out of 6 wounds, he has 4 chances to regain a wound on 6+) Possibility of feel no pain too.
A bare trygon is 200. Super one 235.
It might eat an entire ogryn before they get any attacks if they charge it. If it charges the ogryns, it might even eat two of them (avg. 5.7 wounds done before they attack.)
It looks like they might be viable as a distraction if they get the charge. If the monster charges them, they'll just be free kills for him AND keep him locked in combat so I cannot shoot that monster for a turn or two.

I think the best option is likely a blob (not to shoot) but to rush straight into combat and charge a dangerous MC. If they're stubborn Ld9 from commissar, 30-50 guardsmen will take FOREVER to die even if he chops 6 per turn. It only costs 285 points for 51 wounds of stubborn fodder.

I'd rather hold it up indefinitely with fodder than hold it up temporarily with ogryns and do maybe 1-2 out of 6 wounds to it. My tanks/artillery/shooters will dish out more than 1-2 wounds in the few extra turns of peace to the rest of his army.

That's the punishment for him spending all his points on a S7 crusher. If it's killing guardsmen the entire game, it's largely neutralized. I guess I should charge it in a conga line so ordinance does the least amount of damage? It doesn't matter how many guys get into combat as long as I remove casualties from the rear and get into the safety of suicidal-combat as soon as possible.

I'm going to call this Tactical Maneuver against tyranids, the Brannigan Bust. Winning by flooding him with free kills.

3 Zoans are basically 6 Marines for regular weapons. So lasgun them to death. Or spend some multi lasers to make a couple of wounds.

I like using s8+ weapons on the zoans go for the straight insta-death. You can also use empty chimeras as spped bumps for his MCs.

Ima nid player and id say you need somfin 2 conter psychic powers/ make perils of warp more likely ( dunno wat ud use cos i dont play IG )

Psyker battle squads can knock their Ld down, which effectively makes psychic powers a non-issue.

oh, I almost forgot: a pair of primaris psykers with lightning arc can play the lolgame with MCs

As said previously, spam lots of weak fire power. "FRFSRF" even at 24 inches away will give you 2 shots a guardsmen, and a blob of 30 of them will usually do the job. 30 hits, 9-10 wounds, with 3-4 unsaved. At that point, you just finish them off with whatever else you got lying around or do the same thing next turn (just with more shots at a closer range ). If you're shooting at MCs, just remember to use "Bring it Down" rather than "FRFSRF". Plus then the more scary weapons get twin linked. And if your opponent is shooting at the 30 man blob, they're probably ignoring something more important.

Edit: While feeding MCs lots of guardsmen in melee is cool and very Zapp Brannigan/Soviet Russia of you, you'll give your opponent KPs and VPs, while denying yourself both. I'd strongly recomend not doing that.

why is bring it down better than FRF against MCs?

Ailaros wrote:why is bring it down better than FRF against MCs?

All weapons are twin linked, not just the lasguns firing more. And sorry, shoud've specified that I was still assuming 24 inches away.

With my nids, the main fear are battlecannons.
Only my MC's survive them, so i tend to keep out of thier way.

If you take a basic russ or 2, or a demolisher that will take care of the thropes.
granted they have a 3++, but it will work out (better off using range to your advantage so they cant shoot back)
2-3 russ's will take the unit out in a single turn, they can then start putting wounds on TMC's or taking out units.

Best way to do this is to just spam blasts and high S weapons. (both at the same time are nice)
The executioner if a fething nightmare for me to see on the table.
They generally pepper wounds onto TMC's to the point i get near thier lines with 1-2 wounds left on each MC, meaning they wont last much longer.


so, long story short - Sit back with battlecannons and las and fire until every TMC is dead.
Basic nid troops arent a real threat to anyone, so dont waste time shooting them if theres something bigger in range.


Also, target priority.

Aim straight for trygons and flyrants 1st, they will be hitting your lines as soon as they can, so any slower MC's can wait.

After that aim for walking tyrants, without synapse the critters dont do much.

If he fields fex's then he should know better.
Ignore them until they are next to you.
4 wounds with a 3+ is nothing, and they wont be hitting your lines for a while if you sat on the table edge.

darkdm wrote:

Ailaros wrote:why is bring it down better than FRF against MCs?

All weapons are twin linked, not just the lasguns firing more. And sorry, shoud've specified that I was still assuming 24 inches away.

Why is that order BETTER?

At 24", a regular squad FRF shoots 18 times for 9 hits, BiD shoots 9 times for 6.57 hits. Plus, FRF can do up to twice as many hits.

At 12", FRF shoots 28 times for an average of 14 hits, while BiD shoots 19 times for just north of 14 hits. Bid decreases your chances of doing just one or two hits in favor of the average, but FRF can put out more hits at all.

Ailaros wrote:
Why is that order BETTER?

At 24", a regular squad FRF shoots 18 times for 9 hits, BiD shoots 9 times for 6.57 hits. Plus, FRF can do up to twice as many hits.

At 12", FRF shoots 28 times for an average of 14 hits, while BiD shoots 19 times for just north of 14 hits. Bid decreases your chances of doing just one or two hits in favor of the average, but FRF can put out more hits at all.

Whoops!
I just checked my math, and wow, am I wrong. It is better for normal infantry. Thanks for pointing that out.

FnP zoeys...coooooool.

I love that missiles are more and more common over melta, plasma, and lascannons...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind...double toughness...but still cool against small arms...

TheBloodGod wrote:
The zoans can rush forward, nuking at 24" then blowing tanks up from 18" away. They have 2 wounds and a 3++ save so even a barrage of lascannons might kill 0-1 of them.

Any unsaved lascannon hit is Instant Death. Any Vendetta can kill them from double their range.

DarknessEternal wrote:

TheBloodGod wrote:
The zoans can rush forward, nuking at 24" then blowing tanks up from 18" away. They have 2 wounds and a 3++ save so even a barrage of lascannons might kill 0-1 of them.

Any unsaved lascannon hit is Instant Death. Any Vendetta can kill them from double their range.

Vendetta should insta-gib 1 statistically...

Watch out for your opponent getting smart and playing with onslaught with these guys...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not denying that being able to fly circles around zoeys with vendettas is smart.

I have small problem with Tyranids, winning far more of my past dozen games or so. Of course, they're my main enemy, so I'm slightly skewed in their direction. I have two Vendettas with HB sponsons. When firing at MCs, AP allocation tricks don't work, and more shots is better shots. I also have two plasma vet squads, which flank MCs from opposing directions, taking them down in one turn, even without orders (though I get them if I can). There's also my CCS with 4x meltas and my PCS with 4x meltas. FNP doesn't help against any of that, and most of it is instant kill against Zoanthropes. There's also occasionally an Executioner and usually a 22-man blob with eviscerator priest and three power weapons.

Also, don't underestimate the possibility of tank shocking MCs with chimeras if they're too close. It's definitely worth the risk, as even if the MC pens the tank (against front armor instead of rear), it's 50% to not die and lose 4+ wounds. In fact, most of your tanks points-wise worth this risk.

ElCheezus wrote:Also, don't underestimate the possibility of tank shocking MCs with chimeras if they're too close. It's definitely worth the risk, as even if the MC pens the tank (against front armor instead of rear), it's 50% to not die and lose 4+ wounds. In fact, most of your tanks points-wise worth this risk.

If your opponent is smart though...they may just move their fearless model to the side and assault you next turn.

Vendettas only average 0.6 against a zoanthrope per turn. So you fire two whole vendettas to on average kill 1 zoanthrope out of 3.

For 20 points less he can run 4 on the ground straight into your tanks and blow up 1-2 before vends shoot em down (he can move 6" shoot 18") For 20 points more, he can have 3 of them deepstrike right next to your tanks and blow 1 up (or a whole squadron) without retaliation.

It was corner-to-corner and he had MCs cutting off left and right side so my entire army was crammed into a corner, his stuff 24" away from me. Vendettas couldn't fly left or right because he put impassable terrain and monstrous creatures guarding both flanks. If I had put them in reserves, his 30-wounds of T6 2+/3+ saves would've gotten into my corner before the vendettas appear.

If you tank shock, he can just move out of the way, no dead MC. Fail plan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:oh, I almost forgot: a pair of primaris psykers with lightning arc can play the lolgame with MCs

I don't think that's viable.

Shadows of the warp means if you target tervi/tyrant/zoeys you Ld test on 3d6. With Ld9, that's failed with 0 dmg done and only 1 wound left quite often.

IF it doesn't fail and take a wound to the test, it does 0.78 wounds against a 3+ save thing. 0.39 against 2+ save, and half of each of those against something with FNP (usually the MC closest to me, ready to assault next turn.)

140 points for two easily insta-killable models who only scratch the the things armor. I'd rather have 4 lascannons doing 2.3 average wounds with 1 BringItDown issued to HWS.

If it wasn't for shadows in the Warp, I might consider primaris.

Psyker battle squads at least have more than 1 member for that cost. For 70 points you get overseer and 5 of them. Downside, they only cast 1 power per turn, and have to roll under 9 on 3d6 to reduce Ld of any tyranid psyker. If they fail (they'll fail more often than succeed because 3d6 averages 10.5) then they lose d3 psykers. It's not unlikely they'll lose 3-4 psykers without having successfully gotten a single power off. If only 1 psyker is left and gets -1 ld on enemy zoanthrope, it'd only be at Ld9 instead of 10, wouldn't be worth the loss of 70 points and 1 kill-point. That can be countered by buying large squads, I think. So there are always some left, but that gets into expensive territory. 180 points gets you 2 squads of 7 psykers. More likely one squad successfully reduces zoanthrope's Ld since you have two squads. Also less chance they lose too many psykers to get a meaningful result.

That 180 points costs as much as 3 Zoanthropes itself. The 36" range and move-and-cast ability is nice. PBS in a large investment might earn their cost back just because zoanthrope beams are S10 lances and almost anything to stop them shredding your tanks is valuable.

ductvader wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:Also, don't underestimate the possibility of tank shocking MCs with chimeras if they're too close. It's definitely worth the risk, as even if the MC pens the tank (against front armor instead of rear), it's 50% to not die and lose 4+ wounds. In fact, most of your tanks points-wise worth this risk.

If your opponent is smart though...they may just move their fearless model to the side and assault you next turn.

Correct. I posted in a hurry and didn't mention I use it primarily for positioning/blocking purposes, it's just that you're probably safe from Death or Glory. Especially useful to get more plasmas in range, or keep the MC out of range of important things. Luckily, the vehicle you move through it doesn't take auto-hits since it moved. It's basically good for mucking things up for your opponent

PBS does not work against enemy psykers. Their power works until "the end of the turn". pg 9 of the BRB says this defaults to "Player turn". Therefore their leadership is back to normal on their turn.

Also, Psykers are protected from Shadow in the Warp by being inside transports (per most recent 'Nid FAQ). Since most people take PBS in Chimeras, or attach Primaris Psykers to vets (also in a Chimera most of the time), SitW wouldn't come into play.

TheBloodGod, it looks like you did calculations on Valks, called better than 50% unacceptable (despite instant killing and three TL AP 2 shots at BS being about the best IG can muster), and then didn't do any calculations for the Zoanthropes. Their chance to destroy a Vendetta is better than the other way around, but not guaranteed. Also, the range of the Vendetta is plenty to keep alive for three turns without taking fire. (don't forget that it can move backward while the zoanthropes advance)

One thing that I found rather effective against Zoeys is the Manticore. It has the range to take them out without being in danger itself, and with it's d3 large blast templates it's kinda hard to miss the bloody things. Once you hit it, S10 means instant death for every unsaved wound.

Of course, there could always be jucier targets for the Manticore, but I somehow doubt it, especially if you're tank heavy IG.

ElCheezus wrote:

ductvader wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:Also, don't underestimate the possibility of tank shocking MCs with chimeras if they're too close. It's definitely worth the risk, as even if the MC pens the tank (against front armor instead of rear), it's 50% to not die and lose 4+ wounds. In fact, most of your tanks points-wise worth this risk.

If your opponent is smart though...they may just move their fearless model to the side and assault you next turn.

Also, Psykers are protected from Shadow in the Warp by being inside transports (per most recent 'Nid FAQ). Since most people take PBS in Chimeras, or attach Primaris Psykers to vets (also in a Chimera most of the time), SitW wouldn't come into play.

TheBloodGod, it looks like you did calculations on Valks, called better than 50% unacceptable (despite instant killing and three TL AP 2 shots at BS being about the best IG can muster), and then didn't do any calculations for the Zoanthropes. Their chance to destroy a Vendetta is better than the other way around, but not guaranteed. Also, the range of the Vendetta is plenty to keep alive for three turns without taking fire. (don't forget that it can move backward while the zoanthropes advance)

Good find on that FAQ thing. Kinda good but mostly terrible. PBS just went to "useless" in my book. Unreliable fragile ordinance is not something I need.

2 Vendettas for 260 points haven't achieved their goal if they die having only killed one or two 60 point things that game before dying. Obviously if the scenario / terrain / deployment allows you to kite the enemy forever, vendettas would be mandatory in every army. If you lascannon his hive tyrant instead of a zoanthrope you've done 1.5+ times as many wounds (no invulnerable 3++.)

Would I rather kill 3 zoanthropes (60 points each) or 2 hive tyrants (200-ish points each.) and 1 wound left over on a tervigon or something (another maybe 30 points.)

260 points is like a completely super tooled combat death-blob. That death-blob has a much lower chance of getting sniped and instantly exploding, it's scoring, and deepstriking zoeys don't negate it completely. If you put a vendetta in a corner and a pod appears next to it, zooeys instantly 1-shot it. GG.