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I am always of the mindset that its go bigger or go home, that is just the ork player in me. We are always intrested in playing different kinds of games at our shop and bigger is not always the mindset people have whether its new players wanting low games or older players with bigger armys making a small list. So which armies favor small point matchups (meaning 500-1000pts) and which armys should stay away from these type of games for competive play?

Don't know if this helps but...

I had a Necron force which consisted of a Lord with Veil of Darkness, two 10 Necron warrior squads and 5 immortals which came in at 1000pts. Necrons can be tough to use effectively but in one game against a strong IG army I managed to destroy 2 Leman Russ, 1 Hellhound, a mortar platoon and depeleted a few infantry squads. I took all the tanks in one turn. I lost the game simply because I forgot about the objective as I was having so much fun blowing things up!
Seriously, I'm normally a marine player and have never found a decent mix at 1000pts for them. If you are up against the IG for example you are hideously outnumbered and the supposed toughness of the marines becomes laughable. I've lost games in the first round without firing a shot simply because of overwhelming firepower.

Games below 1000 points typically seem to favor armies with generally higher model counts. For example, 4 units of 30 Hormagaunts, 3 Hive Guard, and 1 Tyranid Prime with a slew of upgrades is roughly 1000 points. Yes, that's 124 models. On the other hand, a 1000 point Space Marine army will usually be 40 models or fewer. Between those two armies, which do you think is likely to win?

IG, Orks, and Nids all have a marked advantage at lower point values, which is somewhat negated when MEq (and low model count GEq) armies get to bring out their heavy hitters at higher point values.

This is the rule. Don't forget that there is always an exception to every rule.

Space Wolves are horrendously beast at 500 points, they take a tooled lord on a Wolf with Saga of the Bear and then two grey hunter squads. You will have a heck of a time trying to kill the lord at that point level, its just dumb.

For Space marines at 500 points you should be bringing a Demolisher. Against other marines a single good hit and there goes half the army, and against other armies it's a pie plate and a hero killer.

I'd figure Tyranids would have a hard time at low points value since they can't fit enough synapse in. Even a Tyranid Prime is a fairly decent chunk of points, and anything like a Tervigon or Trygon Prime will eat up half of a 500 point army. Necrons too, since Phase Out will wipe them out right quick in a 500 point game.

Ratbarf wrote:Space Wolves are horrendously beast at 500 points, they take a tooled lord on a Wolf with Saga of the Bear and then two grey hunter squads. You will have a heck of a time trying to kill the lord at that point level, its just dumb.

I did this at the start of a campaign and my Wold lord didn't die in any of the games and i went undefeated until we moved up in points they are ridiculously hard to kill sometimes.

I'd say Sisters cap out at 2000 points. Probably best at 1500-2000 in my experience, but YMMV.

Guard definitely scales up quite well.

Orks do EXTREMELY well in low points games..

I can't attest to anything else, except for IG. They are fantastic.


Space marines, not so much . . . SM terminator or anything with a dread . . . doubly so.

(tho my buddy did well with a BT army with 3 dreads and scouts back in 4th ed)

Melissia wrote:Orks do EXTREMELY well in low points games..

Yes. Cheap, plentiful and Fearless to boot ( until you kill enough of them ). Very few armies can get enough firepower at low point limits to reliably stop an Ork wave assault.

Brother SRM wrote:I'd figure Tyranids would have a hard time at low points value since they can't fit enough synapse in. Even a Tyranid Prime is a fairly decent chunk of points, and anything like a Tervigon or Trygon Prime will eat up half of a 500 point army. Necrons too, since Phase Out will wipe them out right quick in a 500 point game.

Actually, synapse is hardly necessary. The idea behind my lower Nid lists (got a buddy who plays Nids, I borrow his army from time to time for laffs) is to put as many little scuttling "Instinctive Behavior - Feed" models as possible. When they feed, you don't need synapse. A Prime with a pair of boneswords is 90 points... from there, just fill up the list with Hormagaunts and maybe a Zoey in case the opponent brings armor (which isn't likely at 500 points, but I've seen it happen).

For example:

Prime w/ 2 Boneswords 90
29 Hormagaunts 174
29 Hormagaunts 174
Zoanthrope 60

498, 2 synapse creatures, 4 killpoints, two of which will om-nom enemies without synapse.

Prime w/ 2 Boneswords 90
15 Termagants 75
15 Termagants 75
15 Termagants 75
20 Hormagaunts 120
Zoanthrope 60

499, 4 scoring units, 3 of which will sit on top of an objective without synapse.

Ta-da!

With my IG I would say 1500 IS the sweet spot of the army. I am able to fit a good amount of troops and a massive amount of armor in it and never met an army that could do the same damage as mine other then 2, a 3 monolith Necron army, and a drop pod space wolf army.

3 russ tanks, 2 basilisks and 2 good size platoons in a 1500 is just brutal, and with deployment tactics 4 of those tanks will get a 4+ cover save out in the open.

SO if I had to put them in a scale...
Low=Nids & Orks
Mid= Guard & Tau
High= SM & Choas

Any armor *AT ALL*, even a 35 point transport, and Tyranids are right out of the game. They will prioritize your one, maybe two zoeys or hive guards and then you're done. You get to try to glance it to death with 'gaunts/'gants. Any serious assault based army will just munch through the pathetic small stuff while playing keep away from the single MC or Tyranid Prime you have, then just gangland beat-down the big stuff once the meat shields are gone.

The much vaunted 'synergy' of Tyranids just doesn't work at lower levels. Realistically all you have is primes for synapse, maybe a zoanthrope who ends up walking and eating shots to the face and then a horde of gribblies. There's nothing in that point range to plug the gaps in the army. They can get by, but the armies are one-trick ponies that will get outclassed pretty easily.

Sanchez01 wrote:With my IG I would say 1500 IS the sweet spot of the army.

Guard scales up quite damn better than a mere 1500 points though. Especially at higher than 2000, Guard really shines.

Because there's so much you can always add to the army. You can always add a few more guard squads... a few more sentinels... a few more artillery pieces... a few more tanks...

And each of these can dramatically increase the army's firepower and/or durability.

In general, highly mobile armies are better at lower points. Once you get to 2500 the field is too small for them to make good use of their manueverability. At 2000 points+ armies like IG take over the game with their absurd shooting.

Low model count, Assault oriented armies have even more trouble against armies that are stronger at low points.

Chaos Daemons, Templars, BA(a bit), Khorne CSM, etc, all have trouble.

Like others have said, if you can put 100 models on the table (or take advantage of limited long-range firepower with highly mobile forces), you probably have a better shot at winning.

Threads like these continue to reinforce my love for my humble IG! I get spanked in 500 point battles though against orks unless I get cheesy and bring out the Valkyrie...

Then my ork buddies cry!

Tau scale well after 1500pts. Can always fill out the broadside squads and crisis suit squads...

Chaos SM do well at most levels bulk out oblits plenty of specialist troops...

While oblits are nasty, they just don't scale as well as Guard's vehicles do. Considering the Guard can fill out both their HS AND FA choices with them...

I find Tyranids break down below 1500 points. At that level, they just can't bring enough to be a truly balanced army. Inability to bring a good MC force limits their offensive powers, and lack of Synapse makes them susceptable to morale checks, on bad Ld. I think Stealer Shock works well, but thats about it.

Melissia wrote:

Sanchez01 wrote:With my IG I would say 1500 IS the sweet spot of the army.

Guard scales up quite damn better than a mere 1500 points though. Especially at higher than 2000, Guard really shines.

Because there's so much you can always add to the army. You can always add a few more guard squads... a few more sentinels... a few more artillery pieces... a few more tanks...

And each of these can dramatically increase the army's firepower and/or durability.

True, but the reason I say 1500 is because Guard can field a nasty list where most other armies cannot. The amount of firepower is just ridiculous when combined with the manpower to advance. When going up to 2000 points and greater (non-apoc) then the other armies are able to field their nasty combination and give the Guard a good fight. ex. A good SM list at 1500 tends to take drop pods at 2000, thus limiting all my tanks and making an annihilation game tougher then nails

But man you are right when you say they can field armor like crazy.. 18 max without counting Chimeras for troops and hq on a standard org chart.

Sanchez01 wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Sanchez01 wrote:With my IG I would say 1500 IS the sweet spot of the army.

Guard scales up quite damn better than a mere 1500 points though. Especially at higher than 2000, Guard really shines.

Because there's so much you can always add to the army. You can always add a few more guard squads... a few more sentinels... a few more artillery pieces... a few more tanks...

And each of these can dramatically increase the army's firepower and/or durability.

True, but the reason I say 1500 is because Guard can field a nasty list where most other armies cannot. The amount of firepower is just ridiculous when combined with the manpower to advance. When going up to 2000 points and greater (non-apoc) then the other armies are able to field their nasty combination and give the Guard a good fight. ex. A good SM list at 1500 tends to take drop pods at 2000, thus limiting all my tanks and making an annihilation game tougher then nails

But man you are right when you say they can field armor like crazy.. 18 max without counting Chimeras for troops and hq on a standard org chart.

That firepower increases exponentially with points.

As does its durability if you're worried about drop pods. Take a platoon of fifty five men, separated into squads (not combined), and you can really spread them out to protect against drop podders... they'll assault your guard squad, the guard squad will fall back or be destroyed, and then you can open fire on them. A very effective shield tactic for a mere 280 points. Add another 280 points for a second meat shield platoon? ANd you can cover an insane amount of area with pure bodies.

A bit of a pain to collect and put on the field, but extremely effective.

And remember... basilisks can direct fire. In fact they should always direct fire unless you cannot, as it's more accurate than indirect fire.

Oh yeah man, i know. Guard get very nasty. I just think that other armies have a greater chance at higher point games then they do at mid point games.

For low points: Space Wolves, ORKS!, nids, and infantry IG all do well. In Higher points, Leafblower IG, all SM, eldar, chaos, and the elire armies do well.

Melissia wrote:
And remember... basilisks can direct fire. In fact they should always direct fire unless you cannot, as it's more accurate than indirect fire.

That's a common misconception. A basilisk should always fire barrage. You're allowed to deduct your BS as long as you have LOS. Regardless of if it's direct or indirect fire.

... except direct fire doesn't have a minimum range

Indirect fire does have the advantage of denying cover unless the center of the blast scatters so that cover is between you and it. So cover saves are much harder to take against indirect fire.

Fire indirectly outside of its minimum range, and directly inside.

well normally the basilisks are out of sight of the enemy so indirect has the shoot and not be shot at advantage. except vs nlos weapons of course.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:For low points: Space Wolves, ORKS!, nids, and infantry IG all do well. In Higher points, Leafblower IG, all SM, eldar, chaos, and the elire armies do well.

There's a real misconception here, low points games are brutal for Tyranids. Monstrous Creatures are prohibitively expensive, and any other anti-armor (see also; only hive guards/zoanthropes) is going to get focus fired down really, REALLY fast. As soon as the army loses those two things there's pretty much zero that can be done against any armor at all. A 35 point transport is the next best thing to invincible at that point. You end up trying to glance it to death with Termagants and such.

Also synapse. Again monstrous creatures are expensive, and guess where a lot of synapse is outside of the already-dead Zoanthropes and soon to be dead, glass-fragile Tyranid warriors? Yup monstrous cratures.

With higher levels you can plug these holes and have duplicate capabilities to fill in any losses on the field. Lower levels? Two or three key targets and your entire army is helpless and running around doing whatever their instincts tell them.

I think orks have nearly infinite possibility in the point range area. For example: 2000 points

Big Mek with KFF+Eavy Armor
Big Nek with KFF+Eavy Armor

3 Killa Kans with 3 Rocket
3 Killa Kans with 3 Grotzooka
3 Killa Kans with 3 Kustom Mega-Blasta

Deffdread with Close Combat Weapon and Skocrcha
Deffdread with Close Combat Weapon and Skocrcha

20 boys with nob+power klaw+bosspole
20 boys with nob+power klaw+bosspole
20 boys with nob+power klaw+bosspole

10 Grots w/ Runthlord

12 boys with nob+power klaw+bosspole with truck+ram+armor plates+red paint job


This is a really effective army if you can play your cards right. Where as a warboss with 20 boyz and a squad of about 8 nobs is good for 500 points.

It just all depends how you write your list and play the army.

I've heard that at low levels, say 500-1000, dark eldar, are, suprisingly, nigh unstoppable, because of alpha strike style manuvering.