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Hail Dakkarites,

Forgive me if this has been posted elsewhere...ive not seen it in my searches so what the heck.

Opinions on 5th edition tyranids?

Ive spent a number of hours reading up on many different forums, seems like a few changes.

1. nidzilla builds no longer viable, as the carnies seem to ahve taken a price hike. not altogether bad as there is a number of new creatures to fill their old purpose.

2. swarm lists seem slightly more viable, with tervigorns

3. hq choices seem to have taken an...'odd' twist of fate. either you run cheap as with the new tyrant prime or go for a flyrant. are walkrants w/ guards used anymore?

4. massive debate over zoanthropes vs hive guard for anti-tank roles. zoans are seen as more powerful but sucidal and must use spores to achieve said goal compared to more durable hive guards but less range running risk of being danced around by fast movers.

5. similar debate over usfulness of tyrannofexs - 2 shots and low BS but damn good range and destructive power, plus durable from shooting (weak to CC rushing).

6. lictors seems to have increased slightly in popularity, still not an 'assassin' but good support.

P.S is Yak still around? from what ive read on here he was quite the authority in 4th edition. would love to pick his brains over the new codex - or anyone else who has some experience up their sleeves!

1) Nidzilla can still be done, albeit with a different set of MCs.

2) Horde is still strong, but if you are looking simply for pure numbers you are better off just buying full squads of gants. Buying the Tervs will get you the synapse and FnP on a squad, but on average it means about a third less gants for the same price.

3) The most common HQ choices I've seen/use are the Prime, Flyrant, Swarmlord with guard, or Tervigon. The walking Tyrant with guard can be done, but it's hard to justify it's points cost when there are multiple cheaper units that can pretty much do the same job.

4) The easy answer to this is use both, as they fill two seperate roles. Zoeys for AV13-14 and large blasts when the armor is gone, and HG for transports/light armor/MCs. Two broods of HG and one brood of zoeys in a spod is pretty common.

5) Yeah, this is one that I haven't really made up my mind on yet. 2 BS3 S10 shots are nice, but pretty unreliable....especially at that points cost. The nice thing I see in the T-fexes is they can adapt over the course of a game as you have long range anti-armor, nasty template weapons, and not completely useless CC.

6) Lictors are just bad now. Not when looked at by themselves, but when taken in context with the other options in the Elite section. Those Elite slots are much better served with other units (HG, Zoeys, Ymgarls). Also all of their reserve goodies are useless as most likely the stuff you need it for will already be on the table by the time you can take advantage of the rules.

That's all just my opinion from playing the dex. I know there are plenty of people who would disagree with it.

1- Nidzilla has changed flavors, but GW was pretty good at toning it down. You can do it but it's no longer a zero-thought 'lotsa carnies, walk that way, profit' thing. Also the metagame has changed a LOT. If you're coming from 4th edition there is an absolutely staggering amount of Str 8 AP1-2 stuff flying around the tables to deal with the completely over-the-top advantages of mechanized EVERYTHING. Monstrous Creatures are still tough, but not the unkillable engines of destruction you may be used to.

2- Swarm can be done as well and it's the way I tend to favor since Tyranid drop-pod lists were first castrated then eviscerated with pants-on-head stupid codex rules and an FAQ.

3- Tyrants basically come in two flavors, walking wall with his Tyrant Guard retinue giving a monstrous creature cover save shenanigans, and Flyrant dodging and weaving into cover as well. Did I mention that there is a truly bewildering amount of Str 8 AP 1-2 stuff out there? 'Nids live by their cover saves.

4- Zoeys are ridonculous with Str 10, AP 1 lance, but they've got weaknesses. GW just loves giving out psyker defenses now, so good luck with your psyker roll after the come out of their spore. If you pass that you still have a ballistic skill check, armor penetration check and vehicle damage result. Strong? Yes. Reliable? Give me 6 shots from Hive Guard any day of the week.

5- Some people debate the Tyrannofex. I do not, I'm convinced he's worthless. For something that's creeping up on 300 points I just think it's intolerable to have a ballistic skill that low for two shots and need a synapse babysitter on top of it.

6- Whoever told you Lictors were anything lied. A lot. You simply do not see them. Ever. At all. Never. Period. Deathleaper -~MAYBE~- because of his leadership fun and other special rules. Straight lictors? Nope. Crappy rules hamstrung by his other rules. Nothing he has is useful to anyone else until it's too late, he can't move or assault the turn he comes in and his statline is pretty subpar.

As a general answer, I'd say that 5 ed Nids in general has become something of a veteran's army, for several reasons. Gone are the days of the old-fashioned Nidzilla lists, where as long as you had fexes and some synapse everything else could just go to hell. Nowadays, synergy is far more important, with GW throwing in a bunch more units to do different jobs. It'll take players a bit longer to work out, but the right combination of units in a Nid force will absolutely hammer the enemy into the floor, no matter how hard they've min-maxed or whatever else. I mean, surrounding an opponent with a frontal assault of Hormagaunts, Warriors and Fexes with flanking waves of genestealers and maybe a few Zoeys or HG for fire support is kinda filthy.

The new nid codex has to be the weakest codex release since eldar. Almost everything in it suffers from being over priced. It's also been saddled with a terrible FAQ that contradicts similar rulings in previous FAQ's. The few awesome units in the codex are stuffed in the elite section while the entire army suffers with critical handicaps that are easy to exploit.

That being said it's not a helpless army either. What it does have going for it is synergy, unit combinations are key to winning. A buffed tervigon and swarms of gaunts, swarmlord and outflanking genestealers, spore pod swarm. Those are winning lists. The problem, like most synergistic dependent lists, is that multiple things have to go right for them to succeed. They're also easy to counter.

Seriously, don't underestimate the power of the Tyranid Prime. It's a very cheap and efficient HQ choice and source of synapse, capable of handling many other faction's HQ choices while leaving points for everything else in your army.

As far as the FAQ goes, for the most part it was exactly what you should have expected. The only ruling that really surprised me was the drop pod ruling regarding Tyranid Primes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Max the Dog wrote:The new nid codex has to be the weakest codex release since eldar.

That's not so bad, since Eldar won second place in last year's 'Ard Boyz.

They can be fun for casual play. If you are in to tournaments don't bother. Between the general overall weakness of the codex (it is easily the weakest 5th edition dex and even falls under orks and chaos in tourneys) and the current mech meta Tyranids struggle in a competative environment.

As mentioned above Tyranids do have some synergy they can work with but it is not easy to pull off and fairly easy to avoid or interrupt if your opponent has half clue.

http://www.rankingshq.com/public/globalprofile.aspx

SumYungGui wrote:
6- Whoever told you Lictors were anything lied. A lot. You simply do not see them. Ever. At all. Never. Period. Deathleaper -~MAYBE~- because of his leadership fun and other special rules. Straight lictors? Nope. Crappy rules hamstrung by his other rules. Nothing he has is useful to anyone else until it's too late, he can't move or assault the turn he comes in and his statline is pretty subpar.

Actually I've faced two Tyranid opponents that utilise Lictors, mainly just to help reserves come on that much quicker, but they are still there.

Best of luck to them then, cause his rules don't help reserves in any way that is even in the same zip code as the neighbor of a friend who emailed someone on the other side of the planet to talk to a guy named 'Reliable'. Outside of expecting a Pyrovore to kill someone I don't see a better way to waste an elite slot.

Heh, I actually considered Pyrovores, until I saw 'template' in the weapon range.

Wow. Thanks guys for your replies and discussions. Always love Dakka for its active community.

Maelstrom808 wrote:
1) Nidzilla can still be done, albeit with a different set of MCs.

2) Horde is still strong, but if you are looking simply for pure numbers you are better off just buying full squads of gants. Buying the Tervs will get you the synapse and FnP on a squad, but on average it means about a third less gants for the same price.

3) The most common HQ choices I've seen/use are the Prime, Flyrant, Swarmlord with guard, or Tervigon. The walking Tyrant with guard can be done, but it's hard to justify it's points cost when there are multiple cheaper units that can pretty much do the same job.

4) The easy answer to this is use both, as they fill two seperate roles. Zoeys for AV13-14 and large blasts when the armor is gone, and HG for transports/light armor/MCs. Two broods of HG and one brood of zoeys in a spod is pretty common.

5) Yeah, this is one that I haven't really made up my mind on yet. 2 BS3 S10 shots are nice, but pretty unreliable....especially at that points cost. The nice thing I see in the T-fexes is they can adapt over the course of a game as you have long range anti-armor, nasty template weapons, and not completely useless CC.

6) Lictors are just bad now. Not when looked at by themselves, but when taken in context with the other options in the Elite section. Those Elite slots are much better served with other units (HG, Zoeys, Ymgarls). Also all of their reserve goodies are useless as most likely the stuff you need it for will already be on the table by the time you can take advantage of the rules.

That's all just my opinion from playing the dex. I know there are plenty of people who would disagree with it.

Never been a fan of NidZilla, I've always likened the nids to old school aliens or even space troopers style, endless flood of enemies

HQ choices in my mind seem to come down to flyrant or primes. Flyrant i understand just hops between cover, either JSJing or multi-charing with other flanking units, i.e infiltrated stealers.

I like the appeal of tervigons. Larger units to bolster the flood of gaunts. Good synergy between using the two together. I think i may end up fielding 2-3.

Zoes in spods have been described to me as the ultimate sucide unit. They DS down, splat something to gak with focused blast that absoultely must die early on to save your army, then get overwhelmed by counter-fire. I supose if they survive past turn 2 thats a bonus. At least they will draw fire for a turn. I'm thinking 1 brood of 3 to drop centrally, drawing attention off sideboard.
HG..best used to cover flanks of main force from skimmers and the like? 4+ save is ok, im just not sure if they need swamrs or soemthing to provide a meat shield for them.

Tyrranofexs....yeah i agree they are difficult to make your mind up on. I would love to take one with the hive and look at the opponents face with 20 assault LOL . I think they are just that bit unreliable for long range damage with such low BS. Surely Trigorn primes would be better?

Lictors...i guess it was just me being hopeful. Deathleaper seems to appear in a number of lists for counter-psykers. A minor question, is it legal to take 'named/unique' characters in army lists, for tournies? (i dont imagine ill compete in hardcore tournies, but its nice to know all the same)

SumYungGui wrote:

4- Zoeys are ridonculous with Str 10, AP 1 lance, but they've got weaknesses. GW just loves giving out psyker defenses now, so good luck with your psyker roll after the come out of their spore. If you pass that you still have a ballistic skill check, armor penetration check and vehicle damage result. Strong? Yes. Reliable? Give me 6 shots from Hive Guard any day of the week.

Yeah I think they really are abit random with their performance from what ive been told by the people that use them. they are soemthing of a wildcard, at times able to churn through some armor fairly well, othertimes just falling face-first into the dirt the sec they step out of the pod. I also have seen people mentioning the rise in anti-pskyer stuff like Hoods and whatnot.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:As a general answer, I'd say that 5 ed Nids in general has become something of a veteran's army, for several reasons. Gone are the days of the old-fashioned Nidzilla lists, where as long as you had fexes and some synapse everything else could just go to hell. Nowadays, synergy is far more important, with GW throwing in a bunch more units to do different jobs. It'll take players a bit longer to work out, but the right combination of units in a Nid force will absolutely hammer the enemy into the floor, no matter how hard they've min-maxed or whatever else. I mean, surrounding an opponent with a frontal assault of Hormagaunts, Warriors and Fexes with flanking waves of genestealers and maybe a few Zoeys or HG for fire support is kinda filthy.

I've had a background in WHFB, looking to start 40k. I'm not in it for the glory, more for the fun. Still, naturally i would like something that wins on the occasion. One thing im set on is a non-imperium army. I am *sick* of the ammount of SM/IG armies i see running around. I've always been the anti-mainstream kinda guy when it comes to picking sides. I was considering Tau for the longest of times, but virtually no CC capacity made me start to wonder. I guess its between 'nids and orks. And I have a friend wanting to play orks so I was looking to choose something alternative to him.

Max the Dog wrote:The new nid codex has to be the weakest codex release since eldar. Almost everything in it suffers from being over priced. It's also been saddled with a terrible FAQ that contradicts similar rulings in previous FAQ's. The few awesome units in the codex are stuffed in the elite section while the entire army suffers with critical handicaps that are easy to exploit.

That being said it's not a helpless army either. What it does have going for it is synergy, unit combinations are key to winning. A buffed tervigon and swarms of gaunts, swarmlord and outflanking genestealers, spore pod swarm. Those are winning lists. The problem, like most synergistic dependent lists, is that multiple things have to go right for them to succeed. They're also easy to counter.

Yeah synergy appeals. Combination charges mixed with the right level of fire support to pin/check enemy armor. Every army has a weakness, its learning to exploit said weakness. That is something I'll have to spend a lifetime mastering.

Melissia wrote:Seriously, don't underestimate the power of the Tyranid Prime. It's a very cheap and efficient HQ choice and source of synapse, capable of handling many other faction's HQ choices while leaving points for everything else in your army.

As far as the FAQ goes, for the most part it was exactly what you should have expected. The only ruling that really surprised me was the drop pod ruling regarding Tyranid Primes.

I'm interested in the possible use of a Tyranid Prime as an alternative to a flyrant. Tell me more. They are individual characters I saw, but i hear most people bemoaning Warriors now as less than ideal. Run a Prime alone? or is there something i'm not seeing yet?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Max the Dog wrote:The new nid codex has to be the weakest codex release since eldar.

That's not so bad, since Eldar won second place in last year's 'Ard Boyz.

iLLiTHiD wrote:

Never been a fan of NidZilla, I've always likened the nids to old school aliens or even space troopers style, endless flood of enemies

HQ choices in my mind seem to come down to flyrant or primes. Flyrant i understand just hops between cover, either JSJing or multi-charing with other flanking units, i.e infiltrated stealers.

I like the appeal of tervigons. Larger units to bolster the flood of gaunts. Good synergy between using the two together. I think i may end up fielding 2-3.

Zoes in spods have been described to me as the ultimate sucide unit. They DS down, splat something to gak with focused blast that absoultely must die early on to save your army, then get overwhelmed by counter-fire. I supose if they survive past turn 2 thats a bonus. At least they will draw fire for a turn. I'm thinking 1 brood of 3 to drop centrally, drawing attention off sideboard.
HG..best used to cover flanks of main force from skimmers and the like? 4+ save is ok, im just not sure if they need swamrs or soemthing to provide a meat shield for them.

Tyrranofexs....yeah i agree they are difficult to make your mind up on. I would love to take one with the hive and look at the opponents face with 20 assault LOL . I think they are just that bit unreliable for long range damage with such low BS. Surely Trigorn primes would be better?

Lictors...i guess it was just me being hopeful. Deathleaper seems to appear in a number of lists for counter-psykers. A minor question, is it legal to take 'named/unique' characters in army lists, for tournies? (i dont imagine ill compete in hardcore tournies, but its nice to know all the same)

A few things:

- Flyrants can't JSJ as they are normal jump infantry, not jetpack equipped. In other words they move 12" and can move over impassable terrain, but don't have the extra move option in the assault phase that jetpacks do.

- Zoeys in Spods often end up as suicide units, but it also depends on what other threats you can present to mess with the opponent's target priority. IMO this is one of the most important factors in keeping your bugs alive, second only to making the best possible use of cover.

- Never use the 20 shot weapon on the T-fex...it looks impressive, but once you actually run the numbers on it, it's pretty weak.

- Only take the prime upgrade on Trygons if you are really hurting for synapse. The stats upgrade is negligible and the gun upgrade is kinda pointless since you should pretty much always run with it.

- HG you usually want out of LOS and in synapse, but forward enough to give their relatively short range weapons good coverage of the board.

-On the characters in tourneys, it just depends on the rules set by the TO. Usually it is fine.


Generally speaking my lists always include a flyrant (2x scytals, leech, and paroxysm), 2 broods of HG, one brood of zoeys in a spod, a tervigon with requisit 10 man gant squad to make it scoring, and 2x trygons. From there I'll fill in the rest of the troops as I see fit, maybe add a unit of Shrikes or gargs.

Opinion?

I hate that in order to to use the good monstrous creatures I have to convert a carnifex kit to make them. And even then they don't look exactly like the pictures in the codex which bothers me. Oh, and what size base do I use? That bothers me too.

All in all. This codex just has been a bother to me.

SumYungGui wrote:Best of luck to them then, cause his rules don't help reserves in any way that is even in the same zip code as the neighbor of a friend who emailed someone on the other side of the planet to talk to a guy named 'Reliable'. Outside of expecting a Pyrovore to kill someone I don't see a better way to waste an elite slot.

Really? No +1 to reserves from Pheremone trail? That is the Lictor special rule right?

Maelstrom808 wrote:

iLLiTHiD wrote:

Never been a fan of NidZilla, I've always likened the nids to old school aliens or even space troopers style, endless flood of enemies

HQ choices in my mind seem to come down to flyrant or primes. Flyrant i understand just hops between cover, either JSJing or multi-charing with other flanking units, i.e infiltrated stealers.

I like the appeal of tervigons. Larger units to bolster the flood of gaunts. Good synergy between using the two together. I think i may end up fielding 2-3.

Zoes in spods have been described to me as the ultimate sucide unit. They DS down, splat something to gak with focused blast that absoultely must die early on to save your army, then get overwhelmed by counter-fire. I supose if they survive past turn 2 thats a bonus. At least they will draw fire for a turn. I'm thinking 1 brood of 3 to drop centrally, drawing attention off sideboard.
HG..best used to cover flanks of main force from skimmers and the like? 4+ save is ok, im just not sure if they need swamrs or soemthing to provide a meat shield for them.

Tyrranofexs....yeah i agree they are difficult to make your mind up on. I would love to take one with the hive and look at the opponents face with 20 assault LOL . I think they are just that bit unreliable for long range damage with such low BS. Surely Trigorn primes would be better?

Lictors...i guess it was just me being hopeful. Deathleaper seems to appear in a number of lists for counter-psykers. A minor question, is it legal to take 'named/unique' characters in army lists, for tournies? (i dont imagine ill compete in hardcore tournies, but its nice to know all the same)

A few things:

- Flyrants can't JSJ as they are normal jump infantry, not jetpack equipped. In other words they move 12" and can move over impassable terrain, but don't have the extra move option in the assault phase that jetpacks do.

- Zoeys in Spods often end up as suicide units, but it also depends on what other threats you can present to mess with the opponent's target priority. IMO this is one of the most important factors in keeping your bugs alive, second only to making the best possible use of cover.

- Never use the 20 shot weapon on the T-fex...it looks impressive, but once you actually run the numbers on it, it's pretty weak.

- Only take the prime upgrade on Trygons if you are really hurting for synapse. The stats upgrade is negligible and the gun upgrade is kinda pointless since you should pretty much always run with it.

- HG you usually want out of LOS and in synapse, but forward enough to give their relatively short range weapons good coverage of the board.

-On the characters in tourneys, it just depends on the rules set by the TO. Usually it is fine.


Generally speaking my lists always include a flyrant (2x scytals, leech, and paroxysm), 2 broods of HG, one brood of zoeys in a spod, a tervigon with requisit 10 man gant squad to make it scoring, and 2x trygons. From there I'll fill in the rest of the troops as I see fit, maybe add a unit of Shrikes or gargs.

Ah, forgive my ignorance on the JSJ rule. As I am still new to the system I was unsure if this was the case (i had a gut feeling it was not).

I feel stronger about taking zoes now, their ability to draw fire and potentially mess up some armor seems too good to pass. Abit of risk for alot of reward. Though I will also be running HG too to protect flanks from being overrun.

Only 10 gaunts needed for the tervigon i realise this, but does this not also run the risk of being wiped out from some lucky shooting? rolling a double on three dice is...dicey.

Oh I was only dreaming about the 20 shot weapon merely for the look of wonder/fear by my opponent at picking up 20 dice to roll at once haha Yes its mostly used for that rupture cannon, which has the problems i noted earlier. I'm unsold on it, if it was to be used I'd most likely place it up front and centre to draw as much fire as possible (place regen on it).

Sounds like i should just stick to keeping trigons as standard, they are for distruption rather than synapse. I want to run 1-2 broods of stealers w/ BG to infiltrate, they dont need synapse as a result. Stealers also provide a second threat aside from zoes forcing opponents to split fire. All this buys time for the main force to keep running up.

Mya be tempted to take Deathleaper then if its generally permissable. One the model looks awesome, and two anti-pskyer duties look useful to assisting zoes getting off their shots.

Your general guidelines are much of what I've been theorycrafting/researching myself. HT can flank one side, stealers with the other, zoes in the middle to divide and distrupt enemy positions. Trygons destroy armor. Main force of tervigons and gaunts march the middle and HG provide covering fire. Myabe some ripper swarms to provide flank protection duties.



Q: are harpies worth it? Venon cannons appear lackluster, and wouldnt it be cheaper to just DS some spores in to create the desired effect of anti-infantry blast weapons?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Really? No +1 to reserves from Pheremone trail? That is the Lictor special rule right?

You're have the rules somewhat correct. The Lictor provides +1 to reserves and allows anyone using deep strike to be placed within six inches without scattering.

The part that's not listed is that everything he provides only helps the turn after he arrives from reserves. Further you also have absolutely no choice in using him, he must be in reserves per his codex entry. That means his abilities cannot be used on turn one as there is no reserves, cannot be used on turn two because they are not allowed to and only help on turn three if the Lictor passes his reserve roll on turn two and everything else fails it's rolls until turn three. Then, and only then, may you benefit from the Lictor's reserve rules. If that sequence of events does not go precisely as outlined then the models you had dedicated as coming in using his abilities come in as normal completely under their own power and rules, gaining nothing from the Lictor.

There are much, much better ways to use one of your three elite slots. Like Hive Guard and Zoanthropes to deal with mechanized everything under the sun, the big weakness of the codex.

SumYungGui wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Really? No +1 to reserves from Pheremone trail? That is the Lictor special rule right?

You're have the rules somewhat correct. The Lictor provides +1 to reserves and allows anyone using deep strike to be placed within six inches without scattering.

The part that's not listed is that everything he provides only helps the turn after he arrives from reserves. Further you also have absolutely no choice in using him, he must be in reserves per his codex entry. That means his abilities cannot be used on turn one as there is no reserves, cannot be used on turn two because they are not allowed to and only help on turn three if the Lictor passes his reserve roll on turn two and everything else fails it's rolls until turn three. Then, and only then, may you benefit from the Lictor's reserve rules. If that sequence of events does not go precisely as outlined then the models you had dedicated as coming in using his abilities come in as normal completely under their own power and rules, gaining nothing from the Lictor.

There are much, much better ways to use one of your three elite slots. Like Hive Guard and Zoanthropes to deal with mechanized everything under the sun, the big weakness of the codex.

Woah. This changes EVERYTHING. Seriously, the Lictor and a few guants were all that my friend put up on the first couple of turns. The better part of his army (Mawlocs and WTFDoom of Malantai deepstriking) comes in from reserve. If what you said has any weight, words are gonna be traded.

Quite frankly - I like Nids in 5Ed. Pretty scary at times fighting against them. Especially when most things have wings and eat up the distance. That Doom thing is a pain in the butt when it's dropped in too. It not being synapse doesn't really make much difference either.

I love Spore Mines! Which way are they gonna go, no body knows, then ... POP

Yes, I know they are a bit rubbish but I think they is cute and funneh

On the nid prime: The only reason people don't like him anymore is because he can't drop pod onto the battlefield after GW's FAQ. But that's not the only way to deploy him.

Pilau Rice wrote:Quite frankly - I like Nids in 5Ed. Pretty scary at times fighting against them. Especially when most things have wings and eat up the distance. That Doom thing is a pain in the butt when it's dropped in too. It not being synapse doesn't really make much difference either.

I love Spore Mines! Which way are they gonna go, no body knows, then ... POP

Yes, I know they are a bit rubbish but I think they is cute and funneh

Hehe, yeah I was flicking through the Codex and looking at Deathleaper..then Spore Mines, then back at Deathleaper. Suddenly I had this crazy idea in my mind of deathleaper appearing, using pheramones to rain down death with spore mine deep strike, then disappearing again, only to rinse and repeat, popping around and basically calling in air strikes lol

Melissia wrote:On the nid prime: The only reason people don't like him anymore is because he can't drop pod onto the battlefield after GW's FAQ. But that's not the only way to deploy him.

I'll admit that the inability to drop pod the Prime came as a bit of a blow, but it is still one of the best units in the codex in my opinion. Basically the Prime is cheap, but effective and is more or less a must have in most of my games.

I find the Prime is useful in many ways: If you have footslogging Warriors, he'll boost their WS and BS skill and can absorb the occasional ID lascannon shot rather than lose a whole Warrior. Serves a similar function in other footslogging elements: Absorbs ID's for Zoanthropes and Venomthropes, while providing Synapse for the latter, also providing considerable protection from enemy assaults which would otherwise overwhelm these units.

Currently one of my favourite deployments of the Prime is to attach it to a unit of Hive Guard, as they essentially boost his toughness against shooting, they can operate independently because of the Synapse and the Prime can easily fend off or inflict significant casualties against any assaults directed at them.

As an overall opinion the Tyranids are a very good army, but I would argue they take longer than most others to become proficient at using but rewarding when done so successfully. The Codex is reasonably balanced but I do think there is a massive discrepancy between the Elite and Fast Attack selection, the Elite being full of 'Must Have's' and the Fast Attack being drastically underwhelming at best.

iLLiTHiD wrote:Hehe, yeah I was flicking through the Codex and looking at Deathleaper..then Spore Mines, then back at Deathleaper. Suddenly I had this crazy idea in my mind of deathleaper appearing, using pheramones to rain down death with spore mine deep strike, then disappearing again, only to rinse and repeat, popping around and basically calling in air strikes lol

Heh, it'd be nice...but Deathleaper has to start the game in reserves, and spore mines have to be deployed before anything else at the start of the game.

GMR wrote:

Melissia wrote:
On the nid prime: The only reason people don't like him anymore is because he can't drop pod onto the battlefield after GW's FAQ. But that's not the only way to deploy him.

I'll admit that the inability to drop pod the Prime came as a bit of a blow, but it is still one of the best units in the codex in my opinion. Basically the Prime is cheap, but effective and is more or less a must have in most of my games.

I find the Prime is useful in many ways: If you have footslogging Warriors, he'll boost their WS and BS skill and can absorb the occasional ID lascannon shot rather than lose a whole Warrior. Serves a similar function in other footslogging elements: Absorbs ID's for Zoanthropes and Venomthropes, while providing Synapse for the latter, also providing considerable protection from enemy assaults which would otherwise overwhelm these units.

Currently one of my favourite deployments of the Prime is to attach it to a unit of Hive Guard, as they essentially boost his toughness against shooting, they can operate independently because of the Synapse and the Prime can easily fend off or inflict significant casualties against any assaults directed at them.

As an overall opinion the Tyranids are a very good army, but I would argue they take longer than most others to become proficient at using but rewarding when done so successfully. The Codex is reasonably balanced but I do think there is a massive discrepancy between the Elite and Fast Attack selection, the Elite being full of 'Must Have's' and the Fast Attack being drastically underwhelming at best.

I agree with you that fast attack is lackluster, for an army which is based on the imagery we see in movies of rushing waves of aliens, you'd think fast attack would be more attractive.

Hmm, i've posted up an army list for a 2k army. It seems im suffering from either going ninja style with an ambush style lsit, and a swarm lsit.
I supose a Prime would do well in a swarm list, he's cheap, can bolster warriors or hive guard, and no big loss if you lose him.
I wonder, would venomthropes be worth running in a horde list to screen gaunts?

Maelstrom808 wrote:

iLLiTHiD wrote:
Hehe, yeah I was flicking through the Codex and looking at Deathleaper..then Spore Mines, then back at Deathleaper. Suddenly I had this crazy idea in my mind of deathleaper appearing, using pheramones to rain down death with spore mine deep strike, then disappearing again, only to rinse and repeat, popping around and basically calling in air strikes lol

Heh, it'd be nice...but Deathleaper has to start the game in reserves, and spore mines have to be deployed before anything else at the start of the game.

Yeah i know it isnt legal, and once I checked for the second time, i saw i had made an error in regards to when he starts on the board. ahha it was a hilarious idea though, popping out of the bushes, screaming some unintellectable curse and pointing at some commissar in order to direct some spore mines to rain down from the sky, only to disappear again under a hail of bolter fire.

Despite the drawback of not being able to DS the Prime in, he is still very useful. In regards to tyranids in general I would go so far as to say that they may have problems in dealing with AV, but we completely dominate deployment and movement. If you can use these phases to your advantage you put yourself in a very strong position before first shot is even fired. We now have a plethora of options for DS, secret deployment (admittedly lictors are poo, but ymgarls are very good at getting into combat with no casualties sustained on the way in), spore mines to determine your opponents deployment of AV etc. We also have a lot of options for winged nids so we close the distance that much faster and clog fire lanes.

iLLiTHiD wrote:

I wonder, would venomthropes be worth running in a horde list to screen gaunts?

Definitely this. I would say that Venomthropes hit their peak efficiency in horde lists, especially since you're going to be running a lot of gaunts and stray spitwads will punch through their armour, simply put any armour 6+ unit in range will go from 100% losses against most shooting to 66% losses, not bad for a 55pt model, not to mention all the other huge perks you get such as the Dangerous Terrain test and loss of charge bonus when an opponent assaults you (Especially effective against Ork assaults, by the way!).

Venomthropes are a unit that you take a bit of a risk on, not directly effective as such and useful in specific lists as opposed to general purpose, but they can be absolutely decisive when played correctly.

GMR wrote:

iLLiTHiD wrote:

I wonder, would venomthropes be worth running in a horde list to screen gaunts?

Definitely this. I would say that Venomthropes hit their peak efficiency in horde lists, especially since you're going to be running a lot of gaunts and stray spitwads will punch through their armour, simply put any armour 6+ unit in range will go from 100% losses against most shooting to 66% losses, not bad for a 55pt model, not to mention all the other huge perks you get such as the Dangerous Terrain test and loss of charge bonus when an opponent assaults you (Especially effective against Ork assaults, by the way!).

Venomthropes are a unit that you take a bit of a risk on, not directly effective as such and useful in specific lists as opposed to general purpose, but they can be absolutely decisive when played correctly.

I have two problems with venomthropes. The first is that they cannot join units. I can see why they did this because it might have been overpowered but they are so easy to nuke with rockets. The second issue I have is putting them in elites. If they were anywhere else you would probably see them a lot more but with the desperate needed for anti-tank due to the current meta it is very hard to give up that slot for venomthropes instead of hive guard or zoans. Even if hive guard were 1-5 instead of 1-3 you would likely see more venomthropes.

I will agree that tyranids are balanced in a lot of ways because all their strengths come with some obvious and painful weaknesses. The only problem is that the other 5th edition codices do not seem to follow this paradigm. Internal balance of the codex on the other hand is just awful.

I'm going to chime in and say that I've found Lictors to be *brilliant* in the 1000 points bracket. If you go much beyond that then the board is too cluttered with units and too saturated with high strength firepower for them to work, but in smaller games I run a very effective trio. The flexibility of their deployment means I can assign them all sorts of tasks depending on what else is happening, be that bulking out my Outflanking Genestealers or dropping in to add some punch to my Termagant unit. All in all, a good and fun unit for small games (where you can afford to not spend 500 points on anti-tank Elites).

I'm not sold on Rupture Cannon Tyrannofexes - notably because the Acid Spray is just so good, especially when you close into range and unleash your Cluster Spines/Thorax Swarm as well. It's a beastly unit, but I have often found myself frustrated by the performance of the Rupture Cannon (or lack of performance...). There is much better anti-armour in the form of Hive Guard, Zoanthroapes and (gasp) Deep Striking Harpies with twin-linked HVCs (surprisingly good).

After a lot of playtesting, I've concluded that all of the Tyranid HQ options are rather good. The Tyrant is a monster, can be tailored for several roles and is a real force multiplier. In smaller games I tend to run a lone Tyrant with quad-Devourers and Hive Commander, and in larger games I often lean towards the deathstar build. Tyranid Primes are equally flexible and can be a force multiplier in a different way - mostly through wound allocation games (they make an amazing buffer against Krak Missiles for your Venomthropes...). The Parasite is an interesting niche unit - giving him a flight of 20+ Gargoyles and sending him hunting for enemy flanking units is great fun.

Swarm armies are very viable now, though they (of course) require more than just Tervigon spam. I quite like large units of Hormagaunts (sprinkled with Toxin/Adrenaline if you wish - I tend to) and backed up with Catalyst for a hard punch before the Termagant masses hit home. Toxin/Adrenaline Gargoyle swarms are lethal, but fairly expensive and hard to transport. Genestealer swarms are risky, but there's a great series of battle reports somewhere on Dakka about those.



All in all I quite like the 5th Edition book. It's far from perfect, with a few daft choices (Pyrovores) and some scaling issues (Lictors in large games, not enough Troops slots on the Force Org Chart etc), but there's plenty to see and do in there if you're willing to experiment and maybe spend some time on the learning curve (which is sadly where a lot of gamers fall down).

75% rating on my scale over-all I think.

Lukus83 wrote:
Despite the drawback of not being able to DS the Prime in, he is still very useful. In regards to tyranids in general I would go so far as to say that they may have problems in dealing with AV, but we completely dominate deployment and movement. If you can use these phases to your advantage you put yourself in a very strong position before first shot is even fired. We now have a plethora of options for DS, secret deployment (admittedly lictors are poo, but ymgarls are very good at getting into combat with no casualties sustained on the way in), spore mines to determine your opponents deployment of AV etc. We also have a lot of options for winged nids so we close the distance that much faster and clog fire lanes.

So am I to understand that Primes are good for HQ on the cheap (i.e horde armies), but not always worth taking Warriors for it to run with?

Its always been my approach to TT games if you can dominate 2/3 of an aspect of a game, you are doing well. Sure, nids struggle in AV penetration department, but as you saiy, can perform very well in deployment and movement. I'm looking into strategies of saturating one side of a board with Spore Mines to force an opponent into one flank (and freeing up the saturated side for your own units to infiltrate/outflank/DS into)

I guess gargoyles or harpies might be worth it for a horde army. Gargs seem strange though as they are fragile, but their venom attack only works in melee. I guess they are good for charging gunlines. Still I think i DS spore mines is a more cost effective way of achieving the same idea that harpies seem to offer.

GMR wrote:

iLLiTHiD wrote:

I wonder, would venomthropes be worth running in a horde list to screen gaunts?

Definitely this. I would say that Venomthropes hit their peak efficiency in horde lists, especially since you're going to be running a lot of gaunts and stray spitwads will punch through their armour, simply put any armour 6+ unit in range will go from 100% losses against most shooting to 66% losses, not bad for a 55pt model, not to mention all the other huge perks you get such as the Dangerous Terrain test and loss of charge bonus when an opponent assaults you (Especially effective against Ork assaults, by the way!).

Venomthropes are a unit that you take a bit of a risk on, not directly effective as such and useful in specific lists as opposed to general purpose, but they can be absolutely decisive when played correctly.

Vepr wrote:

GMR wrote:

iLLiTHiD wrote:

I wonder, would venomthropes be worth running in a horde list to screen gaunts?

Definitely this. I would say that Venomthropes hit their peak efficiency in horde lists, especially since you're going to be running a lot of gaunts and stray spitwads will punch through their armour, simply put any armour 6+ unit in range will go from 100% losses against most shooting to 66% losses, not bad for a 55pt model, not to mention all the other huge perks you get such as the Dangerous Terrain test and loss of charge bonus when an opponent assaults you (Especially effective against Ork assaults, by the way!).

Venomthropes are a unit that you take a bit of a risk on, not directly effective as such and useful in specific lists as opposed to general purpose, but they can be absolutely decisive when played correctly.

I have two problems with venomthropes. The first is that they cannot join units. I can see why they did this because it might have been overpowered but they are so easy to nuke with rockets. The second issue I have is putting them in elites. If they were anywhere else you would probably see them a lot more but with the desperate needed for anti-tank due to the current meta it is very hard to give up that slot for venomthropes instead of hive guard or zoans. Even if hive guard were 1-5 instead of 1-3 you would likely see more venomthropes.

I will agree that tyranids are balanced in a lot of ways because all their strengths come with some obvious and painful weaknesses. The only problem is that the other 5th edition codices do not seem to follow this paradigm. Internal balance of the codex on the other hand is just awful.

Yeah, Venomthropes are a fairly cool looking unit...too bad they occupy an elite status instead of say, fast attack. My army list ive posted up atm seems to be stuck between wanting to run horde and a ninja list. I supose these could be ideal for horde armies, though due to the problems with dealing with AV as mentioned before, I question if hordes can work (seeing as they would lack the big hitters). Horde users please feel free to enlighten me.

Xyptc wrote:I'm going to chime in and say that I've found Lictors to be *brilliant* in the 1000 points bracket. If you go much beyond that then the board is too cluttered with units and too saturated with high strength firepower for them to work, but in smaller games I run a very effective trio. The flexibility of their deployment means I can assign them all sorts of tasks depending on what else is happening, be that bulking out my Outflanking Genestealers or dropping in to add some punch to my Termagant unit. All in all, a good and fun unit for small games (where you can afford to not spend 500 points on anti-tank Elites).

I'm not sold on Rupture Cannon Tyrannofexes - notably because the Acid Spray is just so good, especially when you close into range and unleash your Cluster Spines/Thorax Swarm as well. It's a beastly unit, but I have often found myself frustrated by the performance of the Rupture Cannon (or lack of performance...). There is much better anti-armour in the form of Hive Guard, Zoanthroapes and (gasp) Deep Striking Harpies with twin-linked HVCs (surprisingly good).

After a lot of playtesting, I've concluded that all of the Tyranid HQ options are rather good. The Tyrant is a monster, can be tailored for several roles and is a real force multiplier. In smaller games I tend to run a lone Tyrant with quad-Devourers and Hive Commander, and in larger games I often lean towards the deathstar build. Tyranid Primes are equally flexible and can be a force multiplier in a different way - mostly through wound allocation games (they make an amazing buffer against Krak Missiles for your Venomthropes...). The Parasite is an interesting niche unit - giving him a flight of 20+ Gargoyles and sending him hunting for enemy flanking units is great fun.

Swarm armies are very viable now, though they (of course) require more than just Tervigon spam. I quite like large units of Hormagaunts (sprinkled with Toxin/Adrenaline if you wish - I tend to) and backed up with Catalyst for a hard punch before the Termagant masses hit home. Toxin/Adrenaline Gargoyle swarms are lethal, but fairly expensive and hard to transport. Genestealer swarms are risky, but there's a great series of battle reports somewhere on Dakka about those.

All in all I quite like the 5th Edition book. It's far from perfect, with a few daft choices (Pyrovores) and some scaling issues (Lictors in large games, not enough Troops slots on the Force Org Chart etc), but there's plenty to see and do in there if you're willing to experiment and maybe spend some time on the learning curve (which is sadly where a lot of gamers fall down).

75% rating on my scale over-all I think.

Unless things have changed, 2000 points is generally the desired size of an army, yes? Thats what I'd be looking to collect, and if so that means the lictors may need to stay home :(
Deathleaper is an alternative I was looking into, lowering leadership on enemy psykers seems nasty

That acid spray is abit nasty...and unexpected for the most part I'd wager. If I go horde, one of those nasties up front would both soak alot of firepower and be able to lay it down on any CC charging enemies that decide to have a piece of my gaunts. I do laugh when i see its behaviour is to lurk - lol imagining that thing trying to hide behind a tree whimpering

Can Harpies really deliver the anti-armour that we crave? Granted, I can see how with its flying it should be able to position itself for rear armour shots most of the time. But -1 to damage roll? Very lame. I guess they could perform transport hunting duties, but can't HG already do that? And do you need to run them with toxin for the added strength?

Pray tell, what is this deathstar build you speak of with HT? Again, I must remind you all I am still rather new and I only know deathstar builds from WHFB dark elf armies (very nasty at that). Most HT i see are DSing winged melee which work in tandem with 1-2 trygons.

Genestealers definately seem worthwhile. They have always been an iconic part of the Tyranids for me back in '98 when I was first
introduced to TT. I guess I could never seriously collect 40k nids if I didn't have some of these guys with me

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/319429.page

Thats my current attempt. Tell me where I'm falling flat on my face if you so wish.

I've only played two games with twin Harpies but I've started to fall in love with them. They can't crack a Land Raider or a Monolith or anything crazy, but for the vast majority of vehicles out there (looking at you Chimera you 35 point abomination) they are lethal and as sad as it is to say this it's true for the wonky codex they're a bargain at 170 points. Do give him twin linked Heavy Venom, but use it knowing what it is and does. It's T/L blast so you've got a really, really good chance of hitting it exactly where you want. He's flying so you're almost guaranteed side armor every turn as you advance and with it's high Str it's pretty reliable for pen/glancing and honestly it almost doesn't matter whether you penetrate or glace. The entire role of the Heavy Venom is to stun and shake the vehicle into submission every turn from stupidly far away, denying your opponent a chance to use his big fancy guns or to put his troops where he wants them while your wings chew up the distance to the ultimate goal; Monstrous Creature assaulting. Rear armor is easy peasy to go all can opener on with a monstrous creature, the big problem is he only gets three attacks on the charge. Your goal is to stun/shake or immobilize it into not being able to move the turn you finally jump in and get to chew on it so that all three attacks auto-hit. At that point you're pretty much guaranteed around two penetrates assuming some poor rolling. Once you crack the hard candy shell and get to the chewy center your gribblies should be catching up and the next turn you can chew on the soft nougaty center while enjoying his half initiative super happy fun time rules or if the case calls for it just fly away and work on the next transport.

I do advise caution on using his spore mine attack if you've got gribblies in the area. It can screw your own guys up quick, fast and in a hurry. He's also not a super tough unit as some MCs are, so always back your twins up with two full broods of Hive Guard. I find people panic a lot and attack the Harpies while ignoring the guard and as soon as I see this pattern emerging the Harpies starts looking for whatever cover they can get. Remember just because he has wings does not mean he has to use them. If you're playing conservative to draw fire walk 6" like normal infantry into some dense jungle or ruins or something and continue harassment fire with T/L Heavy Venom while advancing more cautiously.

Question for you folks about Hive Tyrants.

I'm running a swarm list. Would I be better off with a Tyrant and some Tyrant Guard to walk with the army and soak a few hits, or use a winged Hive Tyrant?

I can see advantages both ways. A walking Hive Tyrant with Guard would walk in with my Warriors and Termagants, most likely eat some heavy weapons fire (which the guard will likely die from on the way), and generally be a good supporting HQ.

However, I'm also running some flying Fast Attack in my list for rapid flank attacks. This comprises of Shrikes and Gargoyles. I can see a Winged Hive Tyrant being an absolute beast here, running parallel to this part of my force, flying up the opposite board edge and hitting a tough unit on that side, while a Tyranid Prime forms the basis in the horde.

Mainly asking since I'm getting a Forgeworld Tyrant for Christmas.