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New player here looking for feedback on army composition.

The players at the FLGS I play at field CSM (Tzeentch), lots of Orcs, Tau, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and a couple other Space Marine players; no nids, no eldar. The environment is casual with game points anywhere from 1000 to 3000. I own 3000+pts and usually play 1500pt games.

The only mech I have is a LRC, I also have access to nine assault marines, five more devastators, 2 more tactical squads, sternguard, command squad, 15 more terminators, and more HQ selections, including librarians (terminator and not).

Here's what I've been fielding so far (1497pts) and have netted 4 draws and a loss (lots of draws where I play, don't know if this is normal)

HQ Pedro Kantor

Troop 1: Tactical Squad (10)
flamer
las cannon

Troop 2: Tactical Squad (10)
flamer
las cannon

Elite 1: Dreadnought
MM
DCCW

Elite 2: Dreadnought
twin linked las cannon
DCCW

Elite 3: Assault Terminators (7)
3 LC
4 TH/SS
Dedicated Transport: LRC with MM

Heavy Support 1: Devastator Squad (7)
4 ML
2 extra troops

Thanks in advance for your comments!

memphisto wrote:The only mech I have is a LRC, I also have access to nine assault marines, five more devastators, 2 more tactical squads, sternguard, command squad, 15 more terminators, and more HQ selections, including librarians (terminator and not).

Here's what I've been fielding so far (1497pts) and have netted 4 draws and a loss (lots of draws where I play, don't know if this is normal)

Normal for a newer player, yes.

memphisto wrote:HQ Pedro Kantor

If you're not running SternGuard, too, then leave Kantor out. Run a libby HQ instead, as he'll hamper the BAs and SWs with the psychic hood.

memphisto wrote:Troop 1: Tactical Squad flamer las cannon

Go with the free ML, instead. Get sarge a PFist, every time. Also, you're only running two troops in your 1500 list. Try to have a troop choice per 500 points. Keep the flamer vs orks, but field meltaguns against the rest as they'll be using rhinos and such, yes?

Are you having the LasCan shoot once and the rest stand? IF so, then 'tis a really bad tactic as you have 9 other guns doing nothing. Largely, I don't use the free Heavy Wep at all, and keep my tacticals mobile; using pistols, MGs and assaulting, or shooting rapid fire.

memphisto wrote:Elite 1: Dreadnought MM DCCW
Elite 2: Dreadnought twin linked las cannon DCCW

Both are dual purpose, and thus not so good at any one job. Go TL-LasCan & ML or AC/HF DCCW. One is anti-Tank, the other a troop thrasher.

memphisto wrote:Elite 3: Assault Terminators 3 LC 4 TH/SS Dedicated Transport: LRC with MM

Add EA as the LRC's purpose to to deliver Termies.

memphisto wrote:Devastator Squad 4 ML 2 extra troops

Jumpers will be better against tau. Leave the Devs against your ork opponent.

In general:
Make both dreads anti-Tank or toss 'em both (toss as I'm guessing one is the AoBR dread with no other options)
Libby HQ, T-ARmor, Null Zone & Avenger (*not* an epistolary though) vs. other SM and Tau (shield drone value will drop).
Add a Tactical, PFist, mg, ML instead of the Devs ...
... and I don't like to give "Go buy it" advice, but buy 2 rhinos. 5e is a transport game, and rhinos add lifespan to your troops.

I agree about dropping the lascannon. I take the m launcher just in case i have to sit on an objective, the m launcher can be pretty effective against horde just like your bolters.

Also, it is only 35 points for another layer of armor (rhino). Rhinos are not going to in you a battle but they are a little bit of light defense, more mobility, and can pop smoke.

The rhino is the corner stone of a lot of tactics also. Dont forget you get 2 storm bolter shots, 2 fire points, and smoke.

If you do take a lib consider putting him in a rhino, never a razor back. Since he can still shoot from the rhino, (avenger is my favorite attack from a rhino).

If you have the points in your dev squad i add one lascannon, since one guy has bs5 from the signum

Brothererekose wrote:

memphisto wrote:The only mech I have is a LRC, I also have access to nine assault marines, five more devastators, 2 more tactical squads, sternguard, command squad, 15 more terminators, and more HQ selections, including librarians (terminator and not).

Here's what I've been fielding so far (1497pts) and have netted 4 draws and a loss (lots of draws where I play, don't know if this is normal)

Normal for a newer player, yes.

memphisto wrote:HQ Pedro Kantor

If you're not running SternGuard, too, then leave Kantor out. Run a libby HQ instead, as he'll hamper the BAs and SWs with the psychic hood.

memphisto wrote:Troop 1: Tactical Squad flamer las cannon

Go with the free ML, instead. Get sarge a PFist, every time. Also, you're only running two troops in your 1500 list. Try to have a troop choice per 500 points. Keep the flamer vs orks, but field meltaguns against the rest as they'll be using rhinos and such, yes?

Are you having the LasCan shoot once and the rest stand? IF so, then 'tis a really bad tactic as you have 9 other guns doing nothing. Largely, I don't use the free Heavy Wep at all, and keep my tacticals mobile; using pistols, MGs and assaulting, or shooting rapid fire.

memphisto wrote:Elite 1: Dreadnought MM DCCW
Elite 2: Dreadnought twin linked las cannon DCCW

Both are dual purpose, and thus not so good at any one job. Go TL-LasCan & ML or AC/HF DCCW. One is anti-Tank, the other a troop thrasher.

memphisto wrote:Elite 3: Assault Terminators 3 LC 4 TH/SS Dedicated Transport: LRC with MM

Add EA as the LRC's purpose to to deliver Termies.

memphisto wrote:Devastator Squad 4 ML 2 extra troops

Jumpers will be better against tau. Leave the Devs against your ork opponent.

In general:
Make both dreads anti-Tank or toss 'em both (toss as I'm guessing one is the AoBR dread with no other options)
Libby HQ, T-ARmor, Null Zone & Avenger (*not* an epistolary though) vs. other SM and Tau (shield drone value will drop).
Add a Tactical, PFist, mg, ML instead of the Devs ...
... and I don't like to give "Go buy it" advice, but buy 2 rhinos. 5e is a transport game, and rhinos add lifespan to your troops.

Dont listen to this buffoon, he really has no idea what he's talking about. If you dont take the free heavy weapon, you're tacticals are dead weights. Period. Bolters are great and all whoopdyfuckingdoo, but 10 footslogging guys with no heavy weapons wont ever do diddly squat.

lol @ Jabbdo.

Ok, onto feedback. Pedro, to get the most out of him take Sternguard as he makes them scoring and that way you won't need any more troops. If not, ditch him.

Tacticals should ahve Rhinos and take the missile launcher as you combat squad so won't have 9 guys sitting there...

Dreadnoughts I'd probably ditch to get Sternguard.

Assault Terminator should all have thunder hammers.

Devs are ok in min unit, but double the unit.

mercer wrote:lol @ Jabbdo.

Ok, onto feedback. Pedro, to get the most out of him take Sternguard as he makes them scoring and that way you won't need any more troops. If not, ditch him.

Tacticals should ahve Rhinos and take the missile launcher as you combat squad so won't have 9 guys sitting there...

Dreadnoughts I'd probably ditch to get Sternguard.

Assault Terminator should all have thunder hammers.

Devs are ok in min unit, but double the unit.

Thanks so much for both your posts: really excellent constructive feedback! Even in such a short time of playing, I am learning how important those Rhino's can be. Playing without them and against a CSM fielding two of them, I find I'm pouring resources into stopping them without really keeping my opponent from achieving objectives or hurting his troops. I guess it's time to pony up and buy a couple.

I'll try ditching one of the dreadnoughts for sternguard with Pedro too - it makes sense to extract his full value if playing him. I didn't understand your last sentence "Devs are ok in min unit, but double the unit." could you explain, sorry?

You may be right about fielding only TH/SS but I've found in my limited experience that the LCs in an assault with three attacks and initiative 4 can really mitigate the initiative of 1 of the rest of the squad of hammers and an unlucky missed invul save after the enemy goes first in close combat. If I knew I was going to make all my invul saves after the enemy went first, I might be more inclined to take only TH/SS. Any other thoughts?

@kaidsin - thanks for the tips. I like the one for using avenger with a lib in a rhino. And I am convinced by you and mercer that I am wasting resources by sitting back with a tactical unit firing one LC per turn. Waste.

I only have four MLs and have currently been running them in a DEV unit. Would you recommend putting three of them into three tactical units and then still keeping a DEV unit with, say, a couple LCs and maybe one ML?

Thanks!

Sorry, Devs, take in units of 5 but 2 x 5 so double the unit.

No, Devs keep missile launchers Tacticals take missile launchers.

mercer wrote:Sorry, Devs, take in units of 5 but 2 x 5 so double the unit.

No, Devs keep missile launchers Tacticals take missile launchers.

Got it, thanks!

Brothererekose wrote:


Are you having the LasCan shoot once and the rest stand? IF so, then 'tis a really bad tactic as you have 9 other guns doing nothing. Largely, I don't use the free Heavy Wep at all, and keep my tacticals mobile; using pistols, MGs and assaulting, or shooting rapid fire.

NO! The free heavy weapon is A) Required by RAW and B) Freakin' awesome since its FREE . I love using the free rocket launcher I get with my squads. I generally combat squad, one squad with 4 bolter boys and the launcher guy, and one squad with the sarge, special wep, and 3 bolter boys. That way you can still have a mobile scoring unit AND a rocket launcher that can shoot every turn since his friends don't need to move.

In fact, my tac Rocket Launcher guy is so annoying to my oppenents, he has earned a name, Frank!

Although Frank is an epically bad shot (or he loads up nerf rockets) so he doesn't do half the time, but hopefully you'll have more luck than me.

Brothererekose wrote:Are you having the LasCan shoot once and the rest stand? IF so, then 'tis a really bad tactic as you have 9 other guns doing nothing. Largely, I don't use the free Heavy Wep at all, and keep my tacticals mobile; using pistols, MGs and assaulting, or shooting rapid fire.

Freelancer48 wrote:NO! The free heavy weapon is A) Required by RAW and

Hmm. You sure about that? My codex says "If the squad numbers ten models, one SM may replace his bolter with one of the following" -page 134, tactical entry. Care to cite where does it say 'must' take a heavy wep?

Freelancer48 wrote:B) Freakin' awesome since its FREE .

Besides, I did not say, "I don't *take* the free heavy wep". I just said, "Largely, I don't use the free Heavy Wep at all," -- There's a Big Difference, there.

I take an ML or MM every time. Every time. Helps with wound allocation, if nothing else. I use rhinos so that limits heavy wep use, too. That is "limits" not "precludes". I just find that the meltagun in the squad does the job first, and then I assault the passengers of the destroyed transport after. Can't do that with a heavy wep, now can ya?

Jabbdo wrote:Dont listen to this buffoon, he really has no idea what he's talking about. If you dont take the free heavy weapon, you're tacticals are dead weights. Period. Bolters are great and all whoopdyfuckingdoo, but 10 footslogging guys with no heavy weapons wont ever do diddly squat.

Try a closer re-read, Jabbdo. "Buffoon" indeed! And my 10 guys, with a meltagun and Pfist and rarely fired ML do well enough ... I believe that is, they accomplish things *other* than "diddly squat."

Shove the name calling where the sun don't shine and give a post a better read. And then use your brain.

Freelancer48 wrote: I love using the free rocket launcher I get with my squads. I generally combat squad, one squad with 4 bolter boys and the launcher guy ... That way you can still have a mobile scoring unit AND a rocket launcher that can shoot every turn since his friends don't need to move.

I understand the tactic. And I still say that 4 bolters doing nothing is rather wasteful (note the word "rather" -- it tempers my judgement, like the word "largely" in the previous misunderstanding).

I will admit that Combat Squads have mostly failed for me (tried 'em out with the Codex: Dark Angels ... hmm, we need an emoticon that is vomiting) and I now keep the tacticals together. If CSquading works for you, then great.

Freelancer48 wrote:In fact, my tac Rocket Launcher guy is so annoying to my oppenents, he has earned a name, Frank! Although Frank is an epically bad shot (or he loads up nerf rockets) so he doesn't do half the time, but hopefully you'll have more luck than me.

But his buddies Manny, Moe and Jack and Brother Curly are unknowns.

The thing is Freelancer48, the OP, memphitso says he's not Winning, so I'm giving advice on what I have experienced is not-so-good: And that is having 4 or 9 bolters do nothing while the heavy wep guy shoots. When I abandoned that tactic, then took and used meltaguns instead of flamers, getting PFisted sgt. models, I found tacticals to be decent units.

@ Brothererekose

As I have said, 10 men with 1 special weapon will not achieve anything remotely useful. They'll never get where they need to be, they have no threat range with the weapon, and they just wont do gak. Ever. Great, you have a pfist! How much did you pay to get that 1 pfist and 9 body bags? Oh only 195pts!! What a bargain! Only 5 points more and you could have gotten 5 THSS terminators, one of the best units in the game, but no, lets go with the 10 man tactical squad!

Seriously, are you trying to hamstring this guys game by giving "advice"? Or are you just a buffoon? Its one of those, take your pick.

Jabbdo wrote:@ Brothererekose

As I have said, 10 men with 1 special weapon will not achieve anything remotely useful. They'll never get where they need to be, they have no threat range with the weapon, and they just wont do gak. Ever. Great, you have a pfist! How much did you pay to get that 1 pfist and 9 body bags? Oh only 195pts!! What a bargain! Only 5 points more and you could have gotten 5 THSS terminators, one of the best units in the game, but no, lets go with the 10 man tactical squad!

Seriously, are you trying to hamstring this guys game by giving "advice"? Or are you just a buffoon? Its one of those, take your pick.

Why the hate, Jabbdo? I really appreciate the advice from all, and my own future learnings from taking or not taking any of people's advice will inform me of whether or not it was good or bad (for me). The thing is, you probably have some great contributions and ideas but how can you hope to be taken seriously if you're flaming other posters and cursing without provocation? It doesn't make you come across credible or likeable, esp. from the POV of a new player like myself.

As to the debate as to whether or not tactical units are useful in any iteration, it still stands that they are required to take and necessary scoring units to win games -- at least where I play. While I haven't found them all that useful so far, the reasons for this are probably largely a) inexperience b) no rhinos to protect them c) (agreeing with other posters) sitting back shooting one heavy weapon while the other four or nice marines do nothing is useually wasteful; and this is what I've been doing. I've been taking two full squads, breaking them down into four combat squads and sitting back with two, five men units with heavys (that's eight models doing nothing) and the other two CSs trying to achieve objectives, usually getting killed as they are easy, small, soft targets.

Looking forward to re-tooling the army using many of the suggestions posted here, and playing tomorrow

You know what Memphisto, you've hit the nail on the head. I found with my Marines I would sit back and fire missiles and the squads inside the Rhinos blasting melta. Wasn't often I'd use those bolters, and when I did I'd find my 5 Marines which were in the Rhino to be dead meat! So, in fact, I was wasting 24 Marines as others were nothing but bodybags - it was the Terminators which did the heavy shifting.

Luckily for me I used to play Blood Angels when I've first started and gone back to my first chapter now. Bolt pistols are cool as assault after, I get feel no pain and loads of other cool goodies

Tacticals aren't useless, I've never said that, but played in the wrong set up they are seriously subpar. Take 10 tacticals, give them a rhino and a free MM + flamer or melta, you can give the sarge a pfist, but I prefer a combi flamer/melta (same as the squads weapon preferably for added reliability). Then on turn 1, zoom 12" into midfield (near an objective if possible) and pop smoke. If your still alive next turn, you project a 24" threat range that vehicles dont want to come into, to say nothing of coming within 12", as that means almost certain death for any vehicle if the MM hits. Your tacticals cant get shot at until the rhino gets destroyed, and when it does you can camp near its wreckage for cover and keep firing that heavy weapon. If needed you can also fry infantry pretty nicely with 2 flame templates, or go mobile tank hunting if you took the meltas, and if you have the fist it will discourage assaults from wannabe assault units/ low WS MC's (small squads of assault marines, tervigons, small squads of orks, etc)

Alternatively, take a free ML and flamer and sit back in your deployment zone blasting away.

Either way, tacticals need some form of transport to compete. 5 man squads in razors are also possible, but thats a whole different beast. Footsloggers just dont cut it.

I would'nt say pointing out that a guy is gimping his army is flaming. Its constructive advice. If I was doing something that dumb I'd be glad someone pointed it out to me. Brothererekose should probably thank me.

@ Brothererekose

The guy who doesnt take the free heavy weapon for tacticals telling ME to use my brain. Oh the irony...

Jabbdo wrote:Tacticals aren't useless, I've never said that, but played in the wrong set up they are seriously subpar. Take 10 tacticals, give them a rhino and a free MM + flamer or melta, you can give the sarge a pfist, but I prefer a combi flamer/melta (same as the squads weapon preferably for added reliability). Then on turn 1, zoom 12" into midfield (near an objective if possible) and pop smoke. If your still alive next turn, you project a 24" threat range that vehicles dont want to come into, to say nothing of coming within 12", as that means almost certain death for any vehicle if the MM hits. Your tacticals cant get shot at until the rhino gets destroyed, and when it does you can camp near its wreckage for cover and keep firing that heavy weapon. If needed you can also fry infantry pretty nicely with 2 flame templates, or go mobile tank hunting if you took the meltas, and if you have the fist it will discourage assaults from wannabe assault units/ low WS MC's (small squads of assault marines, tervigons, small squads of orks, etc)

This is very useful advice and I appreciate it!

Why does no one split their tac squads?

i like this tac squad set up.

10 marines, Flamer, Combi-flamer and power weapon for the sergeant, and a missile launcher or a lascannon.

Lascannons in Tac squads are a steal for the points, but if your really tight the missile launcher is awsome too.


you split them. the heavy weapon goes somewhere it can blast away in(building, rocks) and the rest go in their Rhino(or footslog) to charge forward and hit something with 2 flame templates.

Jabbdo wrote:... I would'nt say pointing out that a guy is gimping his army is flaming.

No, but calling someone 'buffoon' would be flaming.

Jabbdo wrote: @ Brothererekose: The guy who doesnt take the free heavy weapon for tacticals telling ME to use my brain. Oh the irony...

The irony is that is *not* what I said. You mis-read the statement, and the subsequent post. Try *reading* again. Maybe it isn't your brain, but your glasses. Perhaps bump your View up to 125%?

For a second time. There's some crucial text you're missing, or deliberately ignoring:

BrotherErekose wrote:Besides, I did not say, "I don't *take* the free heavy wep". I just said, "Largely, I don't use the free Heavy Wep at all," -- There's a Big Difference, there.

I take an ML or MM every time.
Every time. Helps with wound allocation, if nothing else. I use rhinos so that limits heavy wep use, too. That is "limits" not "precludes". I just find that the meltagun in the squad does the job first, and then I assault the passengers of the destroyed transport after. Can't do that with a heavy wep, now can ya?

Does the font increase and color change help?

And your synopsis of tactical use is pretty much how I use them, and every other experienced player:
Turn 1 - Move the rhino Cruising Speed. Pop Smoke.
Turn 2 - Shoot at anything really opportune or Move the rhino again, depending on Objectives.
Turn 3 or 4 - Get out and stomp anything the tactical can handle.
Turn 4 or 5 - likely Move again to secure an Objective.

Leave out the 5 point 'upgrade' to TH/SS termies as they don't secure Objectives. (mutters ... an Apples and Oranges fallacy ... tsk, tsk)


Out of all that, there's really only one spot to shoot the heavy, perhaps three if there's little need to Move the rhino.

And I do include one every time I build a list. To not see/undertand that now means you're being a troll. Too bad you're not in the USA, I'd love to meet you on the table just for the grudge match ... unless, you *are* near Los Angeles?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Why does no one split their tac squads?

They become much easier to kill in those smaller units. That's why.

It'd only take 2-3 Howling Banshees to kill 5 SM (on the charge).
A couple Bloodletters.
One Special SM Character (with his power toy) + an SM. You can go through other SM codexes, SW, BA & CSM and similarly nail/destroy that 5 pack with very few other marines, usually when the opponent is a Pfisted sgt.

10 SM are far more resilient. The *idea* of splitting fire, and increasing your Scoring Units appeals, but InMyHumbleExperience, the actual experience is "divide and conquer" in favor of your opponent.

What the heck is going on in here?

STOP the personal attacks.

READ the rules of this site.

Thanks!

Brothererekose wrote:

Are you having the LasCan shoot once and the rest stand? IF so, then 'tis a really bad tactic as you have 9 other guns doing nothing. Largely, I don't use the free Heavy Wep at all, and keep my tacticals mobile; using pistols, MGs and assaulting, or shooting rapid fire.

What's this then? This doesnt really seem to describe the way that you CLAIM you use your tacticals, to me this seems like you think having them run around on foot shooting stuff with their bolters is a good idea.

Definition for buffoon as posted by http://www.thefreedictionary.com

buffoon

1. A clown; a jester: a court buffoon.
2. A person given to clowning and joking.
3. A ludicrous or bumbling person; a fool.
4. a person who amuses others by ridiculous or odd behaviour, jokes, etc
5. a foolish person

I think both 3 and 5 describe you fairly well based on the ADVICE you have given, yes? Perhaps my "insult" was slightly inaccurate, as I cannot actually know whether you are really a clown or a jester by profession, and if you were insulted by this gross misconception then I apologise.

Back on topic, I am more inclined to suggest doing something like this:

HQ Pedro 190
Tactical Squadx5 combi melta razorback Las/ TL plas 175
Tactical Squadx5 combi melta razorback Las/ TL plas 175
Sternguard x5 Rhino, 2x combi melta, 2x combi flamer 180
Sternguard x5 Rhino, 2x combi melta, 2x combi flamer 180
TH terminators x5 (+1 A gets more mileage out of these) in LRC +MM 460
Tornado HF/MM 70
Tornado HF/MM 70

Hahaha @ this thread.

Dracos wrote:Back on topic, I am more inclined to suggest doing something like this:

HQ Pedro 190
Tactical Squadx5 combi melta razorback Las/ TL plas 175
Tactical Squadx5 combi melta razorback Las/ TL plas 175
Sternguard x5 Rhino, 2x combi melta, 2x combi flamer 180
Sternguard x5 Rhino, 2x combi melta, 2x combi flamer 180
TH terminators x5 (+1 A gets more mileage out of these) in LRC +MM 460
Tornado HF/MM 70
Tornado HF/MM 70

Jeez, if I had all the mech you've listed here, I would try this out. It looks like a helluva lot of fun! I could run sort of a hybrid without the mech, but then they're slogging through the fields.

By the way, to the other two or three posters who initially suggested my getting some transports, I did ebay a couple rhinos last night. So, thanks for the input!

To nobody in particular: Is it a bad omen that my first thread and posts on this site as a new player have had a Mod intervene to keep things polite?