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Hello!
I am new to dakka dakka and eldar. As a long time chaos player for fantasy though I come to you in need of range help. Frankly I have never played with this much before. So I come to you more professional players in need of some basic advice.

First- I have used magic before but Eldar magic seems to be a bit different. What are some good magic items to equip your farseers with, also Which is the best spell(?) to use. I see Doom in a lot of lists.

Second. As a chaos player I am used to a lot of infantry. What is a good number of infantry to take? and how many transports should I use to support them?

Third. As far as choosing troops I am pretty sold on using DA and guardians, but should I use the weapon platform?

That's about it, any other tips would be appreciated. I am also extremely sorry if a similar thread has been started, the way I searched was by army lists. It worked for a while but I still am a little puzzled.

Thanks for reading my noobish post, I am sure they sound obscure and blatantly obvious.

Welcome to Dakka Dakka, fellow Iron Maiden fan. I have one recommendation above all when playing Eldar: paint yourself a really snazzy army. Eldar have the brightest, boldest, and most striking color scheme in the game, and your army should take advantage of this. The other reason I recommend this is because it will give you something to take pride in during your first few games, because let me tell you: Eldar are not forgiving to beginners and you may very well lose your first three to five games while you get them figured out. I admire your courage in going at it, though.

Here's what I've learned in my days playing against Eldar:

1) Eldar magic is primarily to be used in a support capacity. Doom is a thrill, and fun to use. Consider this as well: a warlock council on jetbikes will have 3+ armor saves and 4+ invulnerable saves. Now throw in a farseer on a jetbike with the Fortune power, and you've got an annoyingly tough nut to crack, complete with anti-tank (singing spears), anti-personnel (destructor), and assault (witchblade) capabilities. Guide is fun in a shooting-centric army. Most warlocks should be packing destructor, though if you're fielding a melee council, enhance is useful. As a rule, though, I wouldn't buy more than three powers for your farseer. He'll only use two per turn (with spirit stones, which are a must), and the extra points make him too much of a target.

2) Infantry-based Eldar armies are tough, but they can definitely work. 10-15 per 500 points of your army should probably be enough for more mechanized forces. You probably won't want more than 20 models per 500 points, though--you've got much tougher vehicles and monstrous creatures to be spending those points on. As for dedicated transports, a wave serpent with Missile Launchers is a valuable addition to any Eldar army. It provides versatile firepower and transport capacity on a pretty tough chassis.

3) DA will win you through most situations and I recommend a unit or two, but I can't say the same for guardians--their armor is rubbish and their range is poor. If you want them, field ten with a missile launcher and just camp them next to your objective. My recommendation for your infantry though is going to fall solidly with serpent-mounted Fire Dragons. The Wave Serpent can move 12 inches, and thereby give the dragons a drop-and-pop range of about 24 radial inches. Dragons kill about two thirds their number in all infantry units (half in the case of terminators), so they aren't wasted shooting at higher-cost elite infantry (your avengers should be fine dealing with cheaper, more numerous infantry, like gaunts and boyz). The dragon's 1st-turn kill power against enemy vehicles is better than any other units for its cost, especially when you load on an exarch with the Tank Hunters power.

Best of luck!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you're a chaos player, you may be drawn to an army known as the "Aspect Hammer," centered on slogging scorpions and banshees in assault, supported by wraithguard/lords and storm guardians. Be warned: this is a really tough army to pull off, and for this reason I recommend starting off with a shootier army based on dragons and avengers first.

first off...welcome to dakka

secondly, before you go any further with eldar you might wanna check out their codex just to get started...also hit up the bat reports/army list and article section to see what works and how it works. now the army in general is somewhat fragile and takes synergy to make things work fairly well...it is rare for a unit to be effective on its own.

as for units in general...people have a tendency to use DA more than guardians, but the ones that do use guardians usually use storm guardians...if you use defender guardians then its a toss up between scatter lasers or bright lances for the weapon platform. also transports are a must if you are just starting out in eldar...tbh its difficult to go "footdar" if your just starting out. oh and invest in fire dragons in wave serpents, they will pretty much be your bread and butter...well that and DA.

but again since you said you were still puzzled with eldar id check out the article section or the bat rep area as they generally have discussions on what does/did what and why.

The_Wicker_Man wrote:Hello!
I am new to dakka dakka and eldar. As a long time chaos player for fantasy though I come to you in need of range help. Frankly I have never played with this much before. So I come to you more professional players in need of some basic advice.

First- I have used magic before but Eldar magic seems to be a bit different. What are some good magic items to equip your farseers with, also Which is the best spell(?) to use. I see Doom in a lot of lists.

Second. As a chaos player I am used to a lot of infantry. What is a good number of infantry to take? and how many transports should I use to support them?

Third. As far as choosing troops I am pretty sold on using DA and guardians, but should I use the weapon platform?

That's about it, any other tips would be appreciated. I am also extremely sorry if a similar thread has been started, the way I searched was by army lists. It worked for a while but I still am a little puzzled.

Thanks for reading my noobish post, I am sure they sound obscure and blatantly obvious.

Hello! I'm a long time Eldar player, but not super-competitive. I'll try to give you my take on things in the current situation.

There's basically 4 different builds to go with Eldar: Mech (being highly mobile, everything on jetbikes, a fast vehicle or in a WS), Foot Slogging (using Avatar and Guardians to the max!), CC Elite spec'd (Banshees, Scorpions, or Harlies as your main force), and Iyanden (Wraithguard and Wraithlords FTW!). Mech is definitely the most competitive in the current environment. Foot Slogging is decent and can put up a fight, but won't win many tournaments. The others are crazy fun, but not particularly good. So, with that background, I'm going to assume you're going Mech and give answers in that context. But, keep in mind they can change for different builds.

For a mech build, your main strategy is to use your maneuverability to isolate your opponent's squads and take them out one by one with overwhelming force. Then, to zoom over and capture objectives at the last minute.

1) Farseer Powers: Doom is king! It's great in just about any situation. The only time it's not really useful is if everything in your army is S6 or better. Fortune and Guide are a very close 2nd. Fortune works best if you decide to max out your Farseer+Warlock squad. Having 4+ invul re-roll makes them nearly unkillable (be careful for when your farseer gets taken out or fails to cast, though as the squad gets really squishy really quickly). Guide works best in conjunction with a squad putting out a lot of shots, especially DA with Bladestorm. Mind War is mediocre and you can most likely ignore it. Eldrich Storm is absolutely terrible and you should cut it's entry out of your codex and burn it!

Warlock Powers: Destructor is generally considered to be the best, but warlocks need to compliment what they're with. Embolden and Enhance are nice to run 1 each if you have a Farseer+Warlock squad. Conceal is fairly useless with the current cover rules.

2) Infantry will be most of your army (everything but a Fire Prism or two). You need at least 2 Troop choices, but I recommend more, especially for larger games. For a mech list, EVERY squad should get a transport, or be on bikes. I personally recommend bikes for a Farseer+Warlock squad only and not to bother with Guardian jetbikes.

3) DA are a solid choice for troops, but Storm Guardians are a valid alternative (and they can't get a weapon platform). Don't bother with Defender Guardians in a mech list.

Wow! Thank you guys so much for the quick responses!
From what I am taking from it I should go mech heavy at first at least. so that way I can get a good taste at their play styles and get used to shooting so much.

Also Jetbikes are good, so a mixture of DA Wave Sperpents and Fire dragons and far seers on bikes with doom? Am I on the right start, I am going to try and get a list to you guys soon.

Oh and MekanobSamael, here is what my eldar army looks like, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/316847.page

Am I also correct into saying that the falcons are the best to take? Also should I use my wave serpents mainly as offense or mainly on just moving my troops?

Guardian Jetbikes aren't great, they are overpriced for what they do (like half the Eldar codex, particularly the troops) and don't put out a whole heap of damage. Combined with Ld8 and no way to easily boost it (Warlock with Embolden which is pricey or you have to add a Farseer to the squad) they become very hard to get results with, your mobility counts against you in this case as they are too easy to chase off the board. The main way I have seen them used is as a cheap 3 man unit, maybe with the Shuriken Cannon upgrade, which you park in reserve and hope they come on late to simply boost on to an objective. This is basically just paying 70 odd points for an unreliable scoring unit, it doesn't work unless you have the last turn and they contribute nothing other than their ability to score. I ran them for a while but stopped using them for this reason, 5 Dire Avengers in a Serpent are more expensive but far harder to deal with when taking objectives (as they can tank shock etc) and are more resilient but more importantly will actually be able to contribute in other areas (as in they can actually help kill things). With everything in the list pretty overpriced anyway (other than Fire Dragons) you can't really afford to spend points on units which do basically nothing.

JetCouncils (Warlock on Bikes + a Farseer on a bike) are a totally different unit. They aren't scoring but are one of the resilient units in the game with Fortune up (which is the biggest issue with them, fail Fortune or have it blocked and your list falls over). There damage output isn't amazing unless you manage to multicharge a IG parking lot but their mobility lets them avoid fights they don't want to be in (or at least get the charge to maximise their chances of winning) and also lets them multi charge and tie up a big chunk of an enemy army. Their main issue is their points cost, the cost of running a decent sized unit means you have to build your list around them, making them very much a deathstar type build. Even with their mobility they are still vulnerable to decent players who know how to deal with such units (feed them cheap units to slow them down, block off their movement etc) and if you run into psychic defense (which is fairly common now) the unit totally falls over.

A Farseer doesn't need to be on a bike btw. All the support powers (the good ones, Doom, Guide and Fortune) don't require LOS so you can hide him in a transport and he can cast powers freely. It actually boosts his range significantly as well (as you measure from the hull which is much bigger than his base). I would only run him on a bike in a JetCouncil basically.

Falcons are great and often discarded by players who miss the glory days of 4th edition (when they were nigh impossible to kill). The main thing to remember is that should be used differently to Serpents. Falcons are backfield gunboats and don't like getting in too close even with Holos (melta hurts), park a 5 man Avenger unit inside and they are one of the best backfield objective grabbers in the game. Serpents can be used to hang back, but their Energy Field and lower damage output (and points cost) makes them far more suited to getting in closer as they don't have to worry too much about melta. The main issue with Falcons is that they compete for the Heavy Support slots, which are pretty crowded. Prisms are also good but work far better in pairs, which limits most people to 1 Falcon max.

If I could I would put all my Dire Avenger units in Falcons and all my Fire Dragons and Storm Guardian units in Serpents but I also run 2 Prisms so I can't make it fit.

One thing you will quickly find is that no matter how much you buff them up and support them, Eldar troops are pretty terrible. Outside of a transport they are simply too easy to kill off, T3 means you can easily get boltered to death. The main reason to buy the Serpent/Falcon is to keep your fragile scoring units alive long enough so that you can actually win the game by capturing objectives. Other than Fire Dragons my ideal game plan involves none of my units getting out of their transports unless they are forced to (as in the transport is destroyed). 5 man Dire Avenger units are just there to make the vehicle scoring (hence why they are referred to as Dire Avengers as a Vehicle Upgrade, DAVU) and my Storm Guardian Flamer squad is mostly used as a last ditch horde control unit. Because the infantry inside isn't going to do much I always try and make sure all my Serpents have decent weaponry (Scatters minimum, avoid Starcannons, Bright Lances are expensive but often helpful), the infantry had to focus on staying alive so aren't going to be killing a whole lot. The possible exception is with Fire Dragon Serpents, which are far more likely to die as they get in close far more often, I still try and get them Scatters (so you can play the standoff game if you don't want to commit) but wouldn't usually give them anything more expensive than that unless I had no where else to put the points. They are also the only place I would consider using T/L Shuriken Cannons (assuming you are playing a decent sized game here not 500pts or something) as it keeps them cheap.

Wow! thanks for that, so what I got from that is that I shouldn't waste my time fighting other people instead I should distract and take objective markers. In addition I should re frain from troop action (outisde of vehicles, because they are better inside of verhicles) So, dont be too offensive mechanized army lists, need to be fast and agile yet able to hold off fire. Am I on the right track?

So I have been working on a list. Here is what I have so far I am aiming at 1500 points.

(3) warlocks- jet bikes (Might switch out for warlocks) Enhance, Embolden.
=160


DA-10, Exarch dire sword and shruiken pistol +24
DA-10, Exarch
one group in each wave serpent

FD-12 Exarch, firepike, tank hunter
this group is in the falcon. (I am not sure about this)

Wave Serpents-2 missile launchers +60 spirit stones+20
=891

Thats about all I have I need help on making my heavy support. Iam thinking about running 2 falcons to hold my Fire dragons.

Up the irons!

I'm new to 5th ed. Eldar (haven't played 40k in 6 years) so take my advice with a grain of salt, but here are my thoughts

I would add a unit of Dark Reapers with a tempest launcher to crack devastator squads in cover. Also maybe a pair of fire prisms and a pretty sparely appointed farseer to attach to one of the avenger squads for your HW. That would be a pretty solid Mech list I think. You'd definitely have mobility. Besides the reapers that is, but they don't need to go very far.

The_Wicker_Man wrote:So I have been working on a list. Here is what I have so far I am aiming at 1500 points.

(3) warlocks- jet bikes (Might switch out for warlocks) Enhance, Embolden.
=160


DA-10, Exarch dire sword and shruiken pistol +24
DA-10, Exarch
one group in each wave serpent

FD-12 Exarch, firepike, tank hunter
this group is in the falcon. (I am not sure about this)

Wave Serpents-2 missile launchers +60 spirit stones+20
=891

Thats about all I have I need help on making my heavy support. Iam thinking about running 2 falcons to hold my Fire dragons.

A few comments:

1) The only way to run a full DA squad is with Exarch+Dual Catapults+Bladestorm. Don't run the Dire Sword+Pistol. DA are simply too terrible in CC to be helped by an Exarch getting a few PW attacks.

2) The Fire Dragons don't need an Exarch at all. 5 of them is reliable enough to take out any tank they run in to. Upgrading to an Exarch, especially with a Firepike and Tank Hunters, is more than you will ever need and you can use those points elsewhere.

3) Don't run Fire Dragons in a Falcon. DA squads can go in a Falcon, but Fire Dragons need to get to your enemies tanks immediately, and that's the opposite direction the Falcon needs to go. Fire Dragons go in a Wave Serpent. DA can go in either Serpent or Falcon, your choice.

Bozman:
I love my Dark Reapers. They work really well against MeQ on foot. But, if you play against competitive lists, they die way too quickly to be worth their high cost. And, when everything is in a transport, they can't do anything. So, casual games: take them. Competitive games: stay away.

Grakmar wrote:1) The only way to run a full DA squad is with Exarch+Dual Catapults+Bladestorm. Don't run the Dire Sword+Pistol. DA are simply too terrible in CC to be helped by an Exarch getting a few PW attacks.

Pretty much yes.

Grakmar wrote:2) The Fire Dragons don't need an Exarch at all. 5 of them is reliable enough to take out any tank they run in to. Upgrading to an Exarch, especially with a Firepike and Tank Hunters, is more than you will ever need and you can use those points elsewhere.

I disagree, mainly because having s9 and one guy with 9" melta range means you don't necessarily have to be within 6" to get the job done. Which is valuable for dragons, especially if you don't have many of them.

Grakmar wrote:3) Don't run Fire Dragons in a Falcon. DA squads can go in a Falcon, but Fire Dragons need to get to your enemies tanks immediately, and that's the opposite direction the Falcon needs to go. Fire Dragons go in a Wave Serpent. DA can go in either Serpent or Falcon, your choice.

This. The farther back your falcons are the better. Also, yes, reapers, generally speaking, are rubbish. Like the devastators they are designed to kill, they are just too squishy for most games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bozman wrote:Also maybe a pair of fire prisms.

This is one of the scariest things an Eldar player can put onto the table. Individually, two falcons are deadlier, but if you can manage them right, two fire prisms are both more powerful and cheaper.

The list you have posted is actually illegal as you don't have an HQ choice. Warlocks units are a bit weird in that they are an HQ unit but don't actually take up a slot, taking a Farseer 'unlocks' them. As it is that 3 man unit won't achieve much anyway, the main thing which makes Jetcouncils good is being very hard to kill with Fortune up. Even then a 3 man unit won't really do much, not enough damage output even before they take casualties. Generally the minimum sized JetCouncil I would run would be 6 Warlocks + Farseer with Fortune, any smaller and it simply doesn't present enough of a threat. For smaller battles its very difficult to fit them in, as mentioned they get pretty pricey which means building your list around them. For most reasonably sized mech lists a Seer with Guide and/or Doom (Stones if you take both) with Runes of Warding is all you need.

The max squad size for Fire Dragons is 10, but 5-6 is all you need to kill any tank in the game (the Monolith aside) which is the main role they play in most Eldar lists. Assuming you get into melta range, 5 Fire Dragons get on average 0.96 destroyed results a Land Raider (and if they didn't kill it then its going to be pretty messed up). 6 get 1.15 destroyed results. Again we come back to the issue with Eldar infantry being fragile though, outside of a Serpent the life expectancy of Fire Dragons is pretty damn short, usually because of the angry squad of guys inside the vehicle they just vaporised. When 5-6 is enough to kill any vehicle in the game, putting additional points into a squad which is probably going to die isn't a good move. Trading an 80 point Fire Dragon unit to kill a 250pt Land Raider is a pretty easy decision, but make them more expensive and its not such a obvious trade particularly if you are taking out tanks cheaper than the Land Raider (i.e all of them).
Larger squads do have uses though, they can be used to blast away large units of Marines, but this requires you to be running plenty of Bright Lances and other sources of anti tank to make up for the loss of the Fire Dragons AT (they still can kill vehicles obvious but its not a good trade with a more expensive unit as mentioned).
Imo the only reason to take an Exarch is to get the Heavy Flamer. This is only really relevant at higher point levels when you have points to play with and want to add some flexibility to a unit, anti tank is always going to be the units main purpose. Tank Hunters is less effective than simply adding another Fire Dragon to the unit and the Fire Pike is a waste. If you are actually making use of it then you are wasting the other half of the unit and in a Serpent range shouldn't be an issue.

To clarify my previous post, I'm not suggesting that you completely avoid fighting people. Rather you have to pick fights you can win without taking too many hits back, try and overload a flank and completely wipe out your targets so they can't hit back. You need to be the first side which puts meaningful damage on the other otherwise things will go downhill fast. For example if you have second turn and a couple of Serpents drop in the first round of shooting then you have probably lost (whether its objectives or kill points).

Powerguy wrote:The list you have posted is actually illegal as you don't have an HQ choice.

Whoa! Hey guys, there's a forest over behind all these trees!

Powerguy wrote:The list you have posted is actually illegal as you don't have an HQ choice.

He said he was aiming for 1500pts and his current list is only 891, so I was assuming there's more to add later.

But, yes, as Powerguy pointed out, you need a HQ. Farseer (or Eldrad if you can spare the points) is a necessity in any Eldar list. You can either just take the 1, or take a 2nd HQ as either a Farseer or an Autarch on jetbike.

One thing that I have come across personally is that for some reason my army list seems to rack up kill points while surviving, and my list is a hybrid. I haven't won any games yet because everytime I end up murdering my opponents army we are playing for objectives only so my kill points don't matter.

For objective games though I'm going to start running 4 units of 10 guardian defenders with shuricannons I think and have one unit of them and my pathfinders hold my objective while the other 3 gurdian defender units move up the field with my farseer, falcon,waveserpent(carrying DA's) providing heavy fire support while my War walker and harlies flank as a distraction/objective contester.

So what I'm trying to get across here is that Guardian defenders can be very useful because you can get multiple platforms for under 100 points apiece.

also NO MATTER WHAT LIST YOU GO WITH you will need heavy fire support of some kind whether its falcons or fire prisms or War walkers or Dark Reapers you will need them.

Ok! Sorry I have been gone for so long, I lost my codex....Ugh I HATE THAT!

Anyways I have updated my list, please critique heavily!

Here is what I have so far,

Farseer
doom, fortune, spirit stones, jet bike
=160

Warlocks(5)
embolden, enhance destructor (2), jet bikes.
=265


DA(10) exarch, bladestorm, wave serpent w/ tl shuricannons, EML ,spirit stones
DA(10) exarch, bladestorm, wave serpent w/ tl shuricannons, EML, spirit stones
=294

(Wave Serpents=540)
Should I add another group of DA?

FD (6) Exarch, firepike, tank hunter Wave Serpent w/ tl shuri cannons, EML
FD (6) Exarch, firepike, tank hunter Wave Serpent w/ tl shuri cats
=220

Fire Prism x2
spirit stones,
250

=1729

just as a suggestion may want to add runes of warding and witnessing to your seer if your shooting for 1800 points. If your going for 1750 may want just runes of warding.

Alrighty, at this point I dont really care for a set point limit. I just want to sort of get a feel for their lists.

For your updated list:

Take Runes on the Farseer, both Warding and Witnessing. There's so much psychic stuff out there, warding is a huge bonus. And, you NEED to keep Fortune on your Jetseer squad. A failed cast means they're dead.

Try to fit in more Warlocks on Jetbikes. You really can't take too many in this squad. Also, give a few of them Singing Spears. You want the squad to be able to pop a transport in shooting and assault the squad inside.

DA Exarch should have the dual-catapult weapon upgrade, I didn't check your points to see if you already have it, but if you don't, get it.

Basic rule of thumb is that you need 1 troop choice for every 500 points for objectives. Eldar can get away with 1 fewer because of thier high mobility. But, at 1750 or above, you'll need that 3rd squad. It can be DA, Storm Guardians, or even Jetbikes are viable.

Fire Dragons don't need an Exarch at all. They have 5 melta weapons, that's all you need for any tank in any army (except Apoc or a Monolith). The squad is also screwed the turn they get out of their WS to shoot. Don't expect any of them to survive unless your opponent is really weak.

Fire Prism in pairs is great, but don't need Spirit Stones. You can give them both a holo-field, but that isn't needed.

As for WS, never upgrade the catapults to a cannon. They're moving fast enough that they never get to fire the Cannon anyways. On the DA's WS, the EML is fine, but a Brightlance works if you need to drop a squad of Dragons. On the Dragon's WS, take a TL-Cannon as it's main gun, or maybe a Scatter Laser. By giving it an EML, you're basically putting on a large sign that says "Both me and my crew are really deadly and lots of points, take us out first". You want your opponent to struggle with target priority, and an EML on a FD WS makes that decision easy.